Suction Side Leak, I suspect from this union

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funandsun

funandsun

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Jun 11, 2017
758
Bloomington Indiana
Long story short, I have a suction side air leak.

I am not very mechanically inclined although I have done plumbing and pool pressure side work (replace sand).

Here are the pics. I have a Pentair Superflo VS.

You can see the bubble, that is at 1300rpm's. It gets worse at 1700 rpm's and very bad at 2200rpm's

The bubbles appear very quickly when I start the pump, so I assume they are closer (1 of the 3 unions in the picture) vs being further away where it would take at least a little bit of time to get into the basket. It's a theory, a theory based on hope, as in hope it's not under ground.

What I am showing here is the T is flat/straight
T Straight.jpg

However, when I went to turn the skimmer and main drain valves, I used that to support myself and it very very easily turned cockeyed.
T Turned.jpg

This is where it is turning.
T unions where it turns.jpg


My observation is the T is turning, that pipe into the pump is steady tight.

btw: I can't without a lot of force (more than I have tried) to turn off the main drain valve but I can shut the skimmer valve.

My thinking and order of operations

Shut off pump
Close skimmer valve
loosen nut on pump (not remove)
turn to tighten the pipe into the T (it's threaded)
Re-tighten nut on pump
Open skimmer valve
Restart pump to confirm fix

Am I missing something?

Thank you for your time,
 
Philo said:
Have you tried the soapy water trick (spray a mixture of soapy water on the joint and watch for liquid movement) to confirm the leak location?
Click to expand...

No, I tried the garden hose test, run water over it and see if it goes away or changes, I thought I did notice a change but could not replicate it.

But that T is very easily moved back and forth. I would say at least 1 full turn loose if not 1.5 turns.

I will try soapy water and see if I can get any results.
 
JamesW said:
Get close to the suspected leak and then have someone turn off power to the pump. The back pressure should make the leak seep out water.
Click to expand...

Ok tried the soapy/water test, I noticed nothing.

However, I grabbed the hose again, really slowed the water stream down and tried to do a better job of cupping my hands to hold water. What is weird is, I thought I could feel bubbling in my hand but water was being removed, so more like lapping water out of my hand but nibbles of water. And, I could repeat this sensation.

I then wiggled the pipe (it's pretty loose) to see if I could move it enough to seal it off. That seemed to have no effect.

The size of the bubble in the pump basket reduced in size by almost a full 1/2.

Now, I can't be sure that the size is different because we turned off the pump and then back on or if it was directly related to the sensation of water being lapped out of my hand.
 
While you are at it, the unions on the valves need to be tightened as well. Every threaded connection is an opportunity to leak. How are the valves able to twist? Are the pipes below moving as well?
 
Vickery said:
While you are at it, the unions on the valves need to be tightened as well. Every threaded connection is an opportunity to leak. How are the valves able to twist? Are the pipes below moving as well?
Click to expand...

I will get better detailed pics tomorrow in the daylight, the 2 pipes coming from the pool are some type of flex pipe, so when that T moves, they just flex with it. They are not hard pipe.

Any reason for me to not shut off pump, loosen that beige nut on the pump, tighten up that T, re-tighten the nut on the pump and test it? I may have missed someone's reply to that from a few posts earlier.

it doesn't show up in the picture I took but where I circled in red, those are threads. So my thought was if the nut on the pump is "union" meaning I can loosen it up to gain the ability to use a wrench and turn the pipe circled in red, then tighten the nut on the pump, that may be my issue.

So far, running a stream of water hasn't been convincing, bubble remains, but is that pipe supposed to be able to move like this? Maybe it is, again, I am far from any type of expert in this area. So feedback is welcomed.
 
You should be able to loosen the union on the pump and then tighten the nipple from the union to the threaded tee.

It may or may not fix the leak. If it does not, you might have to take it fully apart and put some thread sealant on the threads and then tighten.

Good luck.
 
mknauss said:
You should be able to loosen the union on the pump and then tighten the nipple from the union to the threaded tee.

It may or may not fix the leak. If it does not, you might have to take it fully apart and put some thread sealant on the threads and then tighten.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thank you mknauss.

Ok, woke up and just about immediately had :idea:

at 1300 rpm's the suction is neutral. In other words, the bubble is not getting bigger because it is not sucking in "new" air.

That is why the hose test and soapy water tests are not yielding any clues. Still doesn't mean this is 100% why, but in order for either of these 2 tests to produce a result, I need an "active" suction and at 1300 rpm's there isn't one. It is balanced pressure. Of course it is, because I purposefully lowered rpm's to find the max speed I could still run my pump without all the disruption.

at 1700+ I get new air into the pump window and the bubble gets bigger, and at 2200 rpm's the water level in the basket drops in the area of 1/7 because it is replaced/displaced by the air.

So, in order to properly identify IF that is the leak using the hose method, I need to have the pump fast enough that it is actively drawing in new air.

I warned you all I am not very good at this.

Ok, I will get started on that right after morning coffee.

Will report my findings.

Thanks for hanging in there with me.
 
Raised rpm's to 2200 and applied water, I can hear a reaction but there is no physical change to the pump basket. (other than large amounts of air bubbles rushing in.)

Could be leak is near bottom and water is just running off?

I need more hands to cup the water (hold it in place) and hold the hose lol
 

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If you are testing that connection were the nipple screws into the T - can you just put your hand around it with pump at high RPM and see if you feel suction?

- - - Updated - - -

Or wrap it in plastic wrap.
 
mknauss said:
Or wrap it in plastic wrap.
Click to expand...

I knew I loved this idea when I read it. Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!!

Ok.. so..

I grabbed the cling wrap and wrapped that area, at first I thought I saw the bubble start reducing but not entirely, so I took it and wrapped a few places but no improvement.
Cling Wrap.jpg

So then I cut a larger piece and wrapped the whole area that is in the red square and was able to wrap the cling wrap around it 3 times. (Cling wrap is cheap right?) lol
T Wrapped.jpg

And almost immediately, I looked in the basket and saw part of a hearty twig poking into the basket. It could not get into the basket, basically head first through the opening and was sticking out.

In my excitement, I failed to take a pic and threw the twig into the bushes. I got excited, going to have to excuse me on that one.

I do not know if the twig pictured is the right one, but it was the only one that was wet in that area that I threw it.

I shut off pump, removed the twig/stick, replaced lid and started pump. (Cling wrap still in place) and NO BUBBLE!!!! Instantly!
Culprit.jpg

I REMOVED the cling wrap (edit insert)

and

I ramped up RPM's to 2200

2200 rpms.jpg

And NO BUBBLES!!

2200 rpms no Bubbles.jpg


Thank you Thank you Thank you!

Cling wrap... more than just protecting Rice Krispies!!

mknauss dinner and brews on me!

No idea IF the cling wrap helped dislodge it or if finally the twig became dislodged because of all of the off and on and increase and decrease of pump speeds.. Next time I am installing clear pipes! lolol

But it worked, so Thank you.

Hope this may help others.


Went out 1 more time just before I post this and yes the bubble is GONE GONE GONE!!!

Thanks everyone
 
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