Air leak into strainer basket

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Puddleman

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May 21, 2018
26
Lake Jackson
Hi all been parsing your forum for days now. Lots of helpful,useful information.
I cannot for the life of me find the cause of my issue.

A little history to help out. Bought a house have a pool now. This was a year and a half ago. Pool system is a 18,000 gallon inground plaster pool. Hayward 1.5hp maxflo xl pump. 1.5inch suction line to pump. 1.25inch return line to 3 jets.
No valves before pump. Built in 1976 by Pools by Anthony. Original filter up to 3 days ago was a Sta Rite system 3 S8-500M.
That filter was made for people with cash growing on trees. 3 days ago i got my Pentair Clean and Clear 200 RP. Got it mounted down and plumbed in. Now my problems arise. I had never noticed air bubbles in the strainer basket till now. Old filter had an automatic air bleed system. Never saw air out the return jets either.
I have replaced the strainer basket o ring, lubed and reset every union before and after the pump and filter. Followed every single advice i have found here and on the web. It rained last night for a good 30 minutes. I had the pump running, the air bubbles were GONE. I have done the water trickle over the pump and fittings test MANY times and never got this result. I had also filled the pool to within an inch if the top of the skimmer inlet. After the rain the pool was over the entrance to the skimmer. The small vortices were gone as well. I thought ok it was just not enough water. Went to bed, let the system run its timed schedule. This morning strainer was low on water after pump shut off. I manually restart pump to prime it and the darn air bubbles streaming in are back. Water level in pool is high. I let the air out of filter, And shut it off. What am i missing here.

Thankyou for any and all help,

William
 
Hello and Welcome to TFP!

It sounds like you have suction side air leak. While the leak is usually at the pump lid o-ring, it sounds like you already tried that. It is possible the leak is at a fitting , in the piping itself or maybe at the skimmer. These are hard to diagnose since they are not easy to see, test, or fix.
Can you provide some more details about your setup, distance from pad to pool. What state is Lake Jackson located in?
 
Forgot to say. Distance from pump to pool is about 35ft. there are no valves to main drain/skimmer only a single pipe. I have one of those easy skimmer baskets with the handle and trigger to release the bottom(for wife). I had an idea that this thing could, with the suction I have allow air to be drawn in like a straw. I siliconed the seam since its a 2 piece design. no luck.
I pulled the union on front of pump and removed o ring and inspected greased it(magic lube) put it all back together. Still air bubbles. sometimes more sometimes less, but after 30 minutes theres enough that with the pentair manual air bleed it will take about 10 seconds of pure air before water comes out. at the same time I have bubbles coming out of the jets.
Odd thing is when I kill the pump and then restart it after 30 seconds or so, it takes about 20 seconds before any air bubbles show in the strainer. the basket stays clear and full. Also the water level even with the air nevere drops below 1/4" to 1/2" from the top of the lid. unless I hook up the manual vacc. then it will drop a couple inches down but enough suction it holds the vacc head to the wall very well and if you check it with your hand you better be fast cause it will grab HARD.
the startup pressure for this new filter was about 8.5psi its currently at 9psi after 4 days. I have sealed all of the couplings with a bead of silicon that are above ground. let it cure out before running the pump. I am afraid its underground but it never acted this way with the S8-m500 filter.
 
theres not 1 single vortex it will form and break up many small vortexes it will do this over and over. we had a bloom of flying ants yesterday and it will suck them off the top of the water in those vortexes straight in the skimmer pipe, and thatswith 2 inches too much water over the top of the skimmer entrance. ie about 14 inches to the suction pipe in the bottom. I have tried blocking off the skimmer line and pulling from main but it wont pull anything at all just acts like its not there to pull from ie. it has nothing to pull from so it cant establish a flow. just cavitates the water in basket. btw it almost sucked the bottom of a coffe can into the skimmer pipe while doing this. it wrinkled the can bottom downward.
 
Puddleman said:
Have checked everything above ground. Is there such a thing as too much suction? Pool is currently over the entrance to skimmer but not cap stone. I still see vortices in skimmer.
Lake Jackson is in Texas south of houston.
Click to expand...

How high is the water level in the skimmer? it should be 2/3 full (approx, no "set" requirement) Could you post a picture? Thanks!

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Puddleman said:
theres not 1 single vortex it will form and break up many small vortexes it will do this over and over. we had a bloom of flying ants yesterday and it will suck them off the top of the water in those vortexes straight in the skimmer pipe, and thatswith 2 inches too much water over the top of the skimmer entrance. ie about 14 inches to the suction pipe in the bottom. I have tried blocking off the skimmer line and pulling from main but it wont pull anything at all just acts like its not there to pull from ie. it has nothing to pull from so it cant establish a flow. just cavitates the water in basket. btw it almost sucked the bottom of a coffe can into the skimmer pipe while doing this. it wrinkled the can bottom downward.
Click to expand...

You have a main drain clog. Is your pool clear?
 
Pool is crystal clear has been since we bought the house a year and a half ago.
splashpad said:
How high is the water level in the skimmer? it should be 2/3 full (approx, no "set" requirement) Could you post a picture? Thanks!

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You have a main drain clog. Is your pool clear?
Click to expand...

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You can see the suction in a still photo....

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Heres a vortex pic
 

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You mentioned there is no separation between the skimmer & main drain (pipes)?

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Puddleman said:
its the angle of the lighting standing at the pool its crystal clear .

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View attachment 78145
Its a 9.5ft deep end
Click to expand...

Can you read heads or tails on a coin down there? Even the sun spot looks suspect to me, just offering :)
Another thread discussing "TFP clear" How clear is 'crystal clear'?
 
heck I cant read heads or tails of a coin from 16ft without water between it and me lol. I can count the slots in the safety cover on the drain easily and tell you theres 1/4" stains down there. for some reason the pic is blurring some from when its taken and when its uploaded.
I have a single 1.5" suction pipe coming out of the ground. and a single 1.25" return line. will post pic of lines next.

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Cannot post any further pics i reached my quota?
 
Puddleman said:
heck I cant read heads or tails of a coin from 16ft without water between it and me lol. I can count the slots in the safety cover on the drain easily and tell you theres 1/4" stains down there. for some reason the pic is blurring some from when its taken and when its uploaded.
I have a single 1.5" suction pipe coming out of the ground. and a single 1.25" return line. will post pic of lines next.
Click to expand...

LOL =) Counting the slots is good! =)

hmmm, I wonder if the new plaster added 2 yrs ago blocked the main drain?
 
Did some digging today, literally. I found out i have schedule 80 suction lines from the skimmer. Still have not been able to pin point my air entering the system but that almost negates an underground issue. Still possible just even more unlikely then regular schedule 40. Gonna do the dye test in the skimmer when this rain decides to go away. When i turn on pump now it clears the air and it takes almost a minute for the small bubbles to start streaming back in.
 
Up in post #9 you show a pic of the vortex. How well defined does the vortex get?
Try pulling the basket and see if you still have the issue. I still think this is a likely possibility of the air source.
Are you willing to try an experiment? Take 3 pieces of cardboard and cut them to fit down the skimmer lid hole. Leave the skimmer basket in place. So in the pic, the cardboard would run left to right to make 3 or 4 narrow channels for the water to flow. This is an attempt to prevent the vortex from forming.
Try and see if this prevents the air from getting in the line.
 
Will try the cardboard test. I got so much suction im pretty positive its gonna bottom it out in the skimmer basket in a blink. They get defined enoigh ti watch ants, leaf debris etc. Suck from the top of the water down into the basket. Without rhe basket the debris is gone to the pump fast.
 
Cardboard test yielded no change. Oddly i just noticed that when i purge the filter and the pressure drops the air volume into the strainer basket increases greatly. You would think less pressure would yield more flow. And less out going pressure shouldnt increase the suction effect on a leak.
 
Pretty pool! Congratulations on your purchase! What happens when you put the valve in recirculate and let it run a while? Try that and let us know. The original filter would seem to be more than adequate for your pool. What led you to change it?
 

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