Newbie here and fairly new pool owner needing some guidance with weeping raised wall

[EddieM]

Hi All,

I just found this site within the last week and am really glad as I could use some guidance. We had our new in ground pool completed in mid July 2017, and within 45 - 60 days started noticed water spots on the back of the raised wall near where our two water features are located. I immediately mentioned it to the builder and he said it was just water migration and nothing to worry about, but we would all keep an eye on it. Since that initial conversation with the builder we've seen more and more water spots, small cracks and calcium build up on the back wall. We've also seen some excessive calcium build up on the pool tile near the water features and all above the water line. In the months since September 2017 I've made numerous requests to have the builder inspect the water features to make sure they are properly sealed. He's been out to look at the issues a couple of times and continues to maintain it is just water migration which does not need repair. We also recently increase the flow of the water features and soon after saw a larger than normal water spot on the wall and some wetness on the ground. I also see a large water spot on the back wall of the spa and on the rock just above the tile on the spa that the builder has no idea where it could be coming from and has basically dismissed it also. It just seems like the issues will continue to get worse and I feel the builder is putting us off so he doesn't have to do any repairs. We have a 2 year warranty on workmanship and lifetime limited structural warranty. Please see the pictures for yourself. Am I worried about nothing or do I have an issue that needs repair? Not sure what actions to take at this time to get the builder to assist. Thanks in advance!!

 

[Dirk]

Well until someone in the know happens along, I'll bite, if for no other reason than to bump your post.

Is every spot of concern on the backside of a wall that is retaining the pool or spa water? Or are some spots on free standing walls that are not part of the pool structure?

Because you have either a poltergeist, a pool leak, or your lawn sprinklers are causing the problem (maybe more than one of those).

What the heck is migration? Does he mean water is "migrating" from inside your pool to outside your pool? Uh, that's otherwise known as a leak!

Concrete and gunite are not waterproof, only the plaster holds your pool water in. And your gunite/concrete walls are full of rebar, so if that water is coming through the wall, then your rebar is subject to it, which could start to rust. So this needs to be addressed sooner than later.

If there are sections of wall that are exhibiting this water spotting that are not directly behind the pool water, but close to it, I think it's possible that water is being wicked from the pool and ending up some bit away from it, so just because it's not right on the other side of pool water wouldn't necessarily mean it isn't pool water.

That's either fake grass, or you're putting a lot of water on it, in May, in Texas, right? Do the sprinklers spray these areas? Can you adjust your sprinklers to stop doing so? Or perhaps shield the overspray from the wall in some way? Sheet of plastic, plywood, whatever, as a way of troubleshooting? If you stop the sprinklers from hitting the wall, and the spots go away (evaporate), then you have your culprit. If the spots stay wet and/or worsen, while you can prove that no water is coming from any other source, then that pretty much points to a pool leak.

If it's not the sprinklers, then next in line would be the edge tile leaking. But that's not coming from any sort of expert on the subject, just a suspicion... There are leak detection techniques that might identify that, if that's what's happening. That would certainly prove to the PB what's going on...

 

[Dirk]

Oh, and regarding what to do if the PB refuses to honor the warranty, I can only speak to how it's done in CA. You've already asked him to fix the problem, and he has refused. You can hire a third party expert to corroborate the suspicion (that it is the pool construction at fault). Then it's a certified letter demanding the PB effect repairs, stating the problem, giving a deadline (two weeks is the norm) and clearly indicating that after that two week period (1) you'll be seeking another contractor to repair the problem, (2) the PB will be responsible for the cost of repair, and (3) you'll be suing for the balance due should the PB not pay. In CA that's the setup to allow you to hire someone else to fix the problem. You have to give the original contractor a reasonable amount of time to fix the problem, and (for reasons not clear to me) you have to inform him that you'll be taking him to court (in order to take him to court).

The certified letter proves that you did these steps, sets up the path to resolve things in the legal system if it gets to that, and sometimes is enough to get a complacent contractor to perform, once he knows you're not going away and that you mean business.

CA has online resources that outline these steps. You'd have to seek out the TX version, if there is one. Small claims courts in CA offer resources with advice like this (that's where I got my knowledge of this). If the repair exceeds your states small claims court max amount, you might be looking at hiring a lawyer. And CA has a State Contractors Board that can intervene in cases like this, even if the contractor is not licensed.

You might want to find a more amicable solution with your contractor before you start firing these big guns, but arming yourself with some knowledge on the subject can't hurt, which you can allude to in subsequent conversations with him. At some point (I would do so now), you should start communicating with the PB in writing, to establish a paper trail that illustrates your repeated attempts to reach out to the contractor for resolution. If you haven't been, then up to now it's just your word against his... And from the sound of it, this guy is playing dodge ball hoping you'll give up, so needs a little enlightening about your resolve. He'll get away with that for as long as you let him. Unless there really is something known as migration, and that it will magically resolve itself. I think my poltergeist hypothesis is more likely...

Good luck. There are some builders here that might be able to better advise you on what's happening.

 

[EddieM]

Dirk,

Thanks so much for the response and detail on how to possibly proceed with the PB. The water spots/leaks actually started before I installed new sod and the irrigation so I'm certain the sprinklers are not causing the leaks and cracking on the backside of the wall of the pool. I have a really good lawn care company so the grass is real and green right now...let's see how it looks in July with all this Texas heat!

Every spot of concern on the backside of the wall is retaining either pool or spa water.

I'm not exactly certain what the PB means by "water migration" either. To me, it's a leak! I told him water seems to be going where it's not supposed to and in my opinion that's a leak that needs to be addressed. I'm definitely concerned for about long term effects this issue could cause to the rebar and structure of the pool. Yesterday, the PB asked me to do a bucket leak test and said if this test does not indicate a leak there are no repairs needed. So I'm doing the bucket test today for 24 hours and will check it tomorrow. I guess this will determine how I address this with the PB.

I have purposely communicated with the PB by email and have every single email since construction began because even the construction process was not very smooth. I was afraid we would have issues with service after the build, and it looks like I was correct. I was referred to this PB by a couple of co-workers/friends who had used him also. I'm thinking I may need to find new friends now...haha.

I'm hoping so other experts can weigh in with their thoughts here too. Thanks!

 

[Dirk]

Not much to add. Just another bump for ya. Sounds like you're on the right track. The bucket test seems fair, at least as a first step, though I'm not so sure that would end the matter (for me). I think it's possible the leaks could be slow enough that they could cause the problem, but not show up definitively in a leak test. That's gonna be a tough call. My gut is that he's trying everything he can to avoid addressing this issue, instead of doing everything he can to rectify it. Just his style of customer service...

If the bucket test is negative, then he should then seek the services of a leak detection specialist, at his expense. That would be my position.

If you haven't already, while the bucket test is going on, I'd ask him to explain, in an email, clearly and exactly, what the definition of "migrating" is, how that's any different from a leak, and exactly how that won't impact the structure (specifically the rebar) in the same way a leak would. In other words, give him a little rope to hang himself with.

I'm in the throws of it myself. My contractor has never denied that the damage to my plaster happened during his acid wash, and he stated on day one that the plaster would need to be replaced. He even sent a plaster guy to my house, in the guise of a third party opinion. The only result of that visit was an estimate to replace the plaster. But he's so far only willing to pay for a third of the repair (which, as far as I'm concerned, is yet another admission of guilt), siting that it is somehow the plaster's fault, and not his. He's subsequently lied, and broken a few laws, to skirt a more appropriate resolution. Which in my mind should be completely covering the cost of the repair. So now I've got the CA Contractor's Board working on it. It's taken a while (like months since I filed the complaint), so if you decide to go that route (if that's available in Texas), better sooner than later. In CA, there's no cost to initiate the complaint, you can always back off it if the PB comes through. Also, in CA, the Board will send out a rep (Inspector? Not sure his credentials.), to examine the site and the cause of the complaint. So that might constitute the expert advice I was referring to, or at least one second opinion. So one approach is to start the process now, get the ball rolling, and then use the state's services or not, depending on what the contractor does or doesn't do. In CA, the first thing the Board does is contact the offending contractor for his side of the story. So if nothing else, he'll get the message.

One thing I just learned today (coincidentally), as the Board is just now engaging my complaint, is that the performance bond that all CA contractors must carry (it's a form of insurance), is not something held or administrated directly by the Board, but rather by a third party insurance company. So in order for me to seek financial resolution by way of the bond, I have to submit a separate complaint/claim with this outside entity. Which was both good and bad news. Good in that I might get financial resolution from the bond (something I wasn't clear about), but bad in that I have to try to squeeze money out of an insurance company. I thought that was in the Board's authority, to direct funds from the bond or not, but apparently that's not the case. So I had a bit of a rise of hope, then dashed. Point: if TX contractors are required to be bonded, like in CA, you might have to seek that out separately from your other efforts, if and when it comes to that.

If he's like my contractor, he knows he's to blame, he knows he should fix it, but he's got nothing to lose by stalling, thinking you might give up, or be more likely to settle on a less costly (to him) resolution. My guy is likely thinking he'll not have to pay anything until I take him to court, and that the court ruling will only be as high as what I'm asking for now. So he's got no incentive not to push it out as far as possible, and hope that maybe he can talk (or lie) his way out of paying 100% of the repair, either to the Board, or a judge. If that's his plan, he's grossly miscalculated, but I shouldn't say more about that component of my strategy until after I've deployed it.

Stick to your guns. I don't believe you are off base. If it's not the sprinklers, it's gotta be the pool, right?

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, one more thought, which you've probably already had: don't do anything that could be considered your attempt to rectify the problem. A bucket test is one thing. But don't apply anything, or squirt anything or otherwise affect the areas in question in any way. At least in CA, you must give the contractor a reasonable opportunity to correct the situation. So even if you decide to call in a leak detection expert yourself (and later sue the PB for the cost), you should do so only after that notification and deadline I described. That way the PB has no ammo to later claim: "Hey, I was going to fix it, but then you butted in with your guy so now I'm not liable."

Check out the resources for how to proceed in TX, contact the Board if there is one, etc. Just don't touch the pool yet...

 

[splashpad]

Hopefully you'll get some more advice too, I agree with Dirk, don't do anything to it yourself to it, so as not to "void" the warranty.

 

[EddieM]

Thanks for the input guys. Some good things to consider as I try to get this issue resolved with the PB. I'm going to check the bucket today to see how the leak test worked and will check try it for a couple of days before I follow up with the PB. I think I'll have a fight on my hands trying to get the PB to take action on the repairs, but I don't give up easily so he'll need to be prepared for a fight too. I'll update the thread after my next interaction with the PB.

 

[splashpad]

Thanks for the input guys. Some good things to consider as I try to get this issue resolved with the PB. I'm going to check the bucket today to see how the leak test worked and will check try it for a couple of days before I follow up with the PB. I think I'll have a fight on my hands trying to get the PB to take action on the repairs, but I don't give up easily so he'll need to be prepared for a fight too. I'll update the thread after my next interaction with the PB.

Hoping for "good news" either way!

 

[EddieM]

Just a quick update on the bucket leak test. I did not see much water loss with the bucket test over a 72 hour period. So it doesn't appear to be a major leak which is what I suspected. I think it's more a slow leak like Dirk stated. However, I did turn up the pressure on the water features and saw a slow drip of water coming from the upper backside wall where it meets the rock or coping of one of the water features. When i turn the water features off the drip stops also. I sent the picture to the PB and asked him when he could get someone out here to repair these issues asap. His response was "As soon as we can get our mason there. We are not ignoring you."
The problem is this is what he's been saying for a month now so nothing has really changed. I'll need to explore other actions to force him to take action on these repairs.

 

[Dirk]

The problem is this is what he's been saying for a month now so nothing has really changed. I'll need to explore other actions to force him to take action on these repairs.

Certified letter. Give him two weeks (see previous post). Squeaky wheel gets the grease. He'll schedule you if and when he feels like it, for as long as you allow it.

Not knowing much about pool materials, my uneducated guess is: a problem with the tile setting. Is that new leak you found associated with tile? I gotta think you'd have to be pretty bad at plastering/pebbling a pool for it to leak. So the obvious places to check are the seals: how it seals to the returns, drains, lights and tile. If your pool was built as mine was (most are?), the tile is set before the plaster. It's adhered to the gunite with some sort of compound (mortar?). And then grouted in. I understand that gunite is not actually waterproof, that it's the plaster that makes a pool water tight. But the mortar under the tile would also have to be perfectly water tight, or else that would be a leak point. If your tile guy maybe left a path for the water in the mortar/tile setting, and/or maybe used the wrong type of mortar, that would account for the type of leaking you're getting. Slow, and about where you're seeing it on the back sides of the wall (wicking and gravity would account for why it's not directly behind the tile line). Just a guess. But a possible explanation, and why the PB might be resisting, because in his mind it can't be the plaster...

If he's been stalling the repair for more than a few weeks, you've been more than patient and reasonable. A month is way too long (IMO). Time to play a little tougher with this guy...