Calling All Pool Owners -Tell Me About Yours

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mas985

mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
16,815
Pleasanton, CA
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
As some of you know, I have managed to create a reasonable model of swimming pool plumbing that for the most part seems to be fairly accurate. However, I have modeled less than a half dozen pools so far so I do not have enough information to tell me the overall accuracy. My object has been to predict head loss from a limited set of information that is easily obtainable by most pool owners. Return head loss is fairly easy to come up with based upon the filter PSI but without a suction guage, suction head loss is a bit of a guess. To improve the model, I am asking for some help from the TFP forum. If you are willing to help, please provide the following:

Type of pool: In ground or above ground and equipment list (i.e with or without heater, solar, spa, water features, etc.)
Pump Model: Include HP, service factor (usually lableled SF:)
Filter PSI without solar (assuming guage is working properly and filter clean)
Filter PSI with solar (if available)
Suction Measurement with and without solar (optional: only if you can)
Flow Meter Measurement with and without solar (optional: only if you can)

Suction Plumbing Description:
  • Pipe diameter
    Pipe length pad to closest skimmer/drain
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad

Return Plumbing Description:
  • Pipe diameter
    Pipe length pad to closest return
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad

Once I have collected enough information and can verify the model assumptions, I will be happy to share the results.

Thanks for your help.
 
Mark,

Now that I've got my Pentair Intelliflo pump I can readily give you a full curve of RPM, GPM, PSI (pressure side only) numbers under various conditions of solar on and off as well as running to a single 1.5" dedicated pool cleaner line (with and without the pool cleaner attached). I don't have a suction gauge so can only describe the piping as I understand it (1.5" lines) while the return lines are also a guess to some degree (start out as 2" pipe, then branch to 1.5" at some point).

I even did a thorough diagram or description of my entire visible piping system and estimates of what is underground including the equipment pad with all it's 90-degree turns and T's and the solar panels, but unfortunately that info got stolen along with my laptop (it was in the same bag) a few months ago so I have to recreate all of that. I was planning to do that anyway, so I'll get you all this info when I complete this. I was trying to do the same thing -- see if the models of fluid flow matched reality in a reasonable way.

Richard
 
Sorry to here about your laptop and there is no rush on the information.

My goal is to avoid having worry about all the bends and such and focus on the few parameters than are usually easily to come by visually. Based upon what I have so far, this gets you "close enough" to answer that can be useful. With PSI measurements is fairly easy to compenstate for the rest of the plumbing and get to a very close answer.

Anyway, thanks for your help.
 
Type of pool: In ground, push pull main valve, sand filter, heater, SWG
Pump Model: Ancient Magnetek motor 3/4 HP, SF 1.5, pump label unreadable
Filter PSI without solar: 8 PSI after a backwash

Suction Plumbing Description: single skimmer
Pipe diameter: 1 1/2"
Pool to pad distance: 18 feet
Number of pipe runs pool to pad: One

Return Plumbing Description: single return with 1" eyeball
Pipe diameter 1 1/2"
Pool to pad distance: 14 feet
Number of pipe runs pool to pad: One

There are perhaps 28 right angles in the plumbing, mostly after the pump, and an extra 10 feet of pipe each way to the heater (which is on a different pad on the other side of a hedge). The heater was added on long after the rest was installed.
 
Thanks Jason,

You wouldn't happen to have a head curve for that pump? If so, I just need two sets of GPM/Head points from both ends of the curve. If not, I will try to find one.
 
No clue about the pump. The name plate on the pump has corroded away. The previous owner didn't leave any paperwork on anything except the equipment shed (not a manual I anticipate ever needing). The motor is not original, so even there there are few hints. The pump doesn't even look similar to anything that anyone sells these days, nor does it match any parts diagrams for older pumps that I have seen so far.

I have been thinking of getting either a flow meter or a vacuum gague, if I do I should have some real information for you. Until then all I can say is that it produces enough flow to keep the "at least 20 GPM" sensor in the AutoPilot happy as long as the skimmer isn't significantly clogged and it doesn't ever significantly open the manifold high flow bypass valve.
 
In ground, spill over spa, sand filter 500lb, heater, SWCG
Northstar 2hp - 2spd
Filter PSI without solar: 24 PSI high speed, 6psi low speed

Suction Plumbing Description:(3 valves), 2 skimmers separate pipes, 2 main drains plumbed togeter
Pipe diameter: 2 1/2"
Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa

Return Plumbing Description:(3 valves), 4 pool eyeballs plumbed together, 2 swimout jets, 2 step jets
Pipe diameter 2 1/2"
Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa
 
Type of pool: In ground without heater, solar, spa, water features, etc.
Pump Model: Pentair Dynamo 1 HP, no service factor listed (for AG pools)
Filter PSI without solar- 10 psi with clean filter
Suction Measurement without solar- NA

Suction Plumbing Description: 1.5" pipe
Pool to pad distance- 8'
Number of pipe runs pool to pad- One skimmer line, total length 24'. One main drain line (8' pool depth) over 12', up 10', over 8', total length 30'.

Return Plumbing Description: 1.5" pipe
Pool to pad distance- 8'
Number of pipe runs pool to pad- One return line, total length 40'.
 

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DaveNJ said:
In ground, spill over spa, sand filter 500lb, heater, SWCG
Northstar 2hp - 2spd
Filter PSI without solar: 24 PSI high speed, 6psi low speed

Suction Plumbing Description:(3 valves), 2 skimmers separate pipes, 2 main drains plumbed togeter
Pipe diameter: 2 1/2"
Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa

Return Plumbing Description:(3 valves), 4 pool eyeballs plumbed together, 2 swimout jets, 2 step jets
Pipe diameter 2 1/2"
Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave. The 24 PSI filter pressure, is that with all 3 suction and return valves fully open?
 
Inground, solar panels, SWCG, Hayward C12002S filter; main drain and skimmer on 2" returns, suction cleaner on 1.5" return; no other features.

Hayward Super II pump, 1.5 HP 1.0 SF
Clean filter w/o solar 16 psig, w/ solar 20 psig
No suction measurement

Suction side plumbing:
30' runs of 2" pipe plus 1.5" pipe, 2 runs subtotal
38' run of 2" pipe
3 runs total

Pressure side plumbing:
1 run of 2" pipe; 18' to first eyeball, other 2 are 38'

Pool pad is 10" above normal water level

Top of solar panels 19' above pool pad (vertical)

Off topic: What information would I gain by having a vacuum gauge on the suction side?
 
My pool:

In-ground 16x32. Hayward S-244S 300lb Sand Filter, No main drain, wide-mouth skimmer, no other features.

Hayward Super pump, 1.5 HP 1.0 SF
Clean filter 14 psi
No suction measurement

Suction side plumbing:
65' run of 1-1/2" pipe

Pressure side plumbing:
65' run of 1-1/2" pipe to eyeball

Pool pad is a few inches below normal water level
 
My information:

Above ground 24' round, no heater, solar, spa, or other features.

Hayward SP1580 Power-Flo LX 1HP, don't see a SF on the motor.

14 psi w/ clean filter.

Suction side : 1.5" flex hose, 6 feet to pad, one run from skimmer to pump.

Return side: 1.5" flex hose, 6 feet to pad, two runs from three way valve to dual returns.
 
Gimpy said:
Off topic: What information would I gain by having a vacuum gauge on the suction side?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay on this but I lost track of the thread.

Suction side vacuum guage gives you the suction side head loss so with the filter PSI you get a fairly accurate measurement of total head loss:

Suction Head loss = Vacuum (in-mg.) * 1.13
Return Head loss = Filter PSI * 2.31

Total Head Loss = Suction Head Loss + Return Head Loss
 
I wanted to thank everyone who has shared their plumbing set up with me and encourage others to do the same. The more data I have the better the results will be.

So far I have had a few descrepencies that I have not been able to work out. I have had to add additional head loss to either the suction side or return side to get the filter PSIs to work out properly but this could be due to bad gauges.

If anyone has a flow meter installed or can do vacuum measurements, this would be an ideal set up to calibrate.

Thanks again for all your help.
 
Water level has a zero net effect on total head loss. It reduces suction side head but increases return side head by the same amount. Anyway, I take it into account and the descrepencies occur for both IG and AG pools.

I think it has more to do with the differences in how the plumbing is laid out. I was avoiding having to take that into consideration because it is just too difficult to add up all of the head losses. My approach was to use offsets normalized to pipe diameter.
 

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