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Thread: Calling All Pool Owners -Tell Me About Yours

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Calling All Pool Owners -Tell Me About Yours

    As some of you know, I have managed to create a reasonable model of swimming pool plumbing that for the most part seems to be fairly accurate. However, I have modeled less than a half dozen pools so far so I do not have enough information to tell me the overall accuracy. My object has been to predict head loss from a limited set of information that is easily obtainable by most pool owners. Return head loss is fairly easy to come up with based upon the filter PSI but without a suction guage, suction head loss is a bit of a guess. To improve the model, I am asking for some help from the TFP forum. If you are willing to help, please provide the following:

    Type of pool: In ground or above ground and equipment list (i.e with or without heater, solar, spa, water features, etc.)
    Pump Model: Include HP, service factor (usually lableled SF
    Filter PSI without solar (assuming guage is working properly and filter clean)
    Filter PSI with solar (if available)
    Suction Measurement with and without solar (optional: only if you can)
    Flow Meter Measurement with and without solar (optional: only if you can)

    Suction Plumbing Description:
    • Pipe diameter
      Pipe length pad to closest skimmer/drain
      Number of pipe runs pool to pad


    Return Plumbing Description:
    • Pipe diameter
      Pipe length pad to closest return
      Number of pipe runs pool to pad


    Once I have collected enough information and can verify the model assumptions, I will be happy to share the results.

    Thanks for your help.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Mark,

    Now that I've got my Pentair Intelliflo pump I can readily give you a full curve of RPM, GPM, PSI (pressure side only) numbers under various conditions of solar on and off as well as running to a single 1.5" dedicated pool cleaner line (with and without the pool cleaner attached). I don't have a suction gauge so can only describe the piping as I understand it (1.5" lines) while the return lines are also a guess to some degree (start out as 2" pipe, then branch to 1.5" at some point).

    I even did a thorough diagram or description of my entire visible piping system and estimates of what is underground including the equipment pad with all it's 90-degree turns and T's and the solar panels, but unfortunately that info got stolen along with my laptop (it was in the same bag) a few months ago so I have to recreate all of that. I was planning to do that anyway, so I'll get you all this info when I complete this. I was trying to do the same thing -- see if the models of fluid flow matched reality in a reasonable way.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Sorry to here about your laptop and there is no rush on the information.

    My goal is to avoid having worry about all the bends and such and focus on the few parameters than are usually easily to come by visually. Based upon what I have so far, this gets you "close enough" to answer that can be useful. With PSI measurements is fairly easy to compenstate for the rest of the plumbing and get to a very close answer.

    Anyway, thanks for your help.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Calling All Pool Owners -Tell Me About Yours

    Type of pool: In ground, push pull main valve, sand filter, heater, SWG
    Pump Model: Ancient Magnetek motor 3/4 HP, SF 1.5, pump label unreadable
    Filter PSI without solar: 8 PSI after a backwash

    Suction Plumbing Description: single skimmer
    Pipe diameter: 1 1/2"
    Pool to pad distance: 18 feet
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad: One

    Return Plumbing Description: single return with 1" eyeball
    Pipe diameter 1 1/2"
    Pool to pad distance: 14 feet
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad: One

    There are perhaps 28 right angles in the plumbing, mostly after the pump, and an extra 10 feet of pipe each way to the heater (which is on a different pad on the other side of a hedge). The heater was added on long after the rest was installed.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Thanks Jason,

    You wouldn't happen to have a head curve for that pump? If so, I just need two sets of GPM/Head points from both ends of the curve. If not, I will try to find one.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    No clue about the pump. The name plate on the pump has corroded away. The previous owner didn't leave any paperwork on anything except the equipment shed (not a manual I anticipate ever needing). The motor is not original, so even there there are few hints. The pump doesn't even look similar to anything that anyone sells these days, nor does it match any parts diagrams for older pumps that I have seen so far.

    I have been thinking of getting either a flow meter or a vacuum gague, if I do I should have some real information for you. Until then all I can say is that it produces enough flow to keep the "at least 20 GPM" sensor in the AutoPilot happy as long as the skimmer isn't significantly clogged and it doesn't ever significantly open the manifold high flow bypass valve.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    DaveNJ's Avatar
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    In ground, spill over spa, sand filter 500lb, heater, SWCG
    Northstar 2hp - 2spd
    Filter PSI without solar: 24 PSI high speed, 6psi low speed

    Suction Plumbing Description3 valves), 2 skimmers separate pipes, 2 main drains plumbed togeter
    Pipe diameter: 2 1/2"
    Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa

    Return Plumbing Description3 valves), 4 pool eyeballs plumbed together, 2 swimout jets, 2 step jets
    Pipe diameter 2 1/2"
    Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa
    IG 18x36 oval vinyl, Spill over spa, Northstar 2hp-2spd, 2.5" piping, S310T 500lb Sand filter, 400k gas heater, AutoPilot SWCG
    http://www.tftestkits.net/

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    Mark, do you want the info on mine, or is that one of the ones you modeled already?

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangeball
    Mark, do you want the info on mine, or is that one of the ones you modeled already?
    If you don't mind just to make sure I have it right. Thanks.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Calling All Pool Owners -Tell Me About Yours

    Type of pool: In ground without heater, solar, spa, water features, etc.
    Pump Model: Pentair Dynamo 1 HP, no service factor listed (for AG pools)
    Filter PSI without solar- 10 psi with clean filter
    Suction Measurement without solar- NA

    Suction Plumbing Description: 1.5" pipe
    Pool to pad distance- 8'
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad- One skimmer line, total length 24'. One main drain line (8' pool depth) over 12', up 10', over 8', total length 30'.

    Return Plumbing Description: 1.5" pipe
    Pool to pad distance- 8'
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad- One return line, total length 40'.

  11. Back To Top    #11
    mas985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNJ
    In ground, spill over spa, sand filter 500lb, heater, SWCG
    Northstar 2hp - 2spd
    Filter PSI without solar: 24 PSI high speed, 6psi low speed

    Suction Plumbing Description3 valves), 2 skimmers separate pipes, 2 main drains plumbed togeter
    Pipe diameter: 2 1/2"
    Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa

    Return Plumbing Description3 valves), 4 pool eyeballs plumbed together, 2 swimout jets, 2 step jets
    Pipe diameter 2 1/2"
    Pool to pad distance: 10 feet
    Number of pipe runs pool to pad: 3 plus 1 spa
    Thanks Dave. The 24 PSI filter pressure, is that with all 3 suction and return valves fully open?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Inground, solar panels, SWCG, Hayward C12002S filter; main drain and skimmer on 2" returns, suction cleaner on 1.5" return; no other features.

    Hayward Super II pump, 1.5 HP 1.0 SF
    Clean filter w/o solar 16 psig, w/ solar 20 psig
    No suction measurement

    Suction side plumbing:
    30' runs of 2" pipe plus 1.5" pipe, 2 runs subtotal
    38' run of 2" pipe
    3 runs total

    Pressure side plumbing:
    1 run of 2" pipe; 18' to first eyeball, other 2 are 38'

    Pool pad is 10" above normal water level

    Top of solar panels 19' above pool pad (vertical)

    Off topic: What information would I gain by having a vacuum gauge on the suction side?

  13. Back To Top    #13
    Backglass's Avatar
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    My pool:

    In-ground 16x32. Hayward S-244S 300lb Sand Filter, No main drain, wide-mouth skimmer, no other features.

    Hayward Super pump, 1.5 HP 1.0 SF
    Clean filter 14 psi
    No suction measurement

    Suction side plumbing:
    65' run of 1-1/2" pipe

    Pressure side plumbing:
    65' run of 1-1/2" pipe to eyeball

    Pool pad is a few inches below normal water level

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    MikeInTN's Avatar
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    Re: Calling All Pool Owners -Tell Me About Yours

    My information:

    Above ground 24' round, no heater, solar, spa, or other features.

    Hayward SP1580 Power-Flo LX 1HP, don't see a SF on the motor.

    14 psi w/ clean filter.

    Suction side : 1.5" flex hose, 6 feet to pad, one run from skimmer to pump.

    Return side: 1.5" flex hose, 6 feet to pad, two runs from three way valve to dual returns.
    24' x 52" AGP - approx 13,500 gallons
    Pentair Optiflo 1 hp/2sp pump w/ Swimpro Voyager 150 sq ft cartridge filter
    Intex 8110 SWCG
    "Fear the Schnauz!"

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    DaveNJ's Avatar
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    mas985,
    If I open up everything except the suction from the spa it runs at 22psi. I set the valves so when the pump switchs to low speed I get enough flow through the SWCG.
    IG 18x36 oval vinyl, Spill over spa, Northstar 2hp-2spd, 2.5" piping, S310T 500lb Sand filter, 400k gas heater, AutoPilot SWCG
    http://www.tftestkits.net/

  16. Back To Top    #16
    mas985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpy
    Off topic: What information would I gain by having a vacuum gauge on the suction side?
    Sorry for the delay on this but I lost track of the thread.

    Suction side vacuum guage gives you the suction side head loss so with the filter PSI you get a fairly accurate measurement of total head loss:

    Suction Head loss = Vacuum (in-mg.) * 1.13
    Return Head loss = Filter PSI * 2.31

    Total Head Loss = Suction Head Loss + Return Head Loss
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  17. Back To Top    #17
    mas985's Avatar
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    I wanted to thank everyone who has shared their plumbing set up with me and encourage others to do the same. The more data I have the better the results will be.

    So far I have had a few descrepencies that I have not been able to work out. I have had to add additional head loss to either the suction side or return side to get the filter PSIs to work out properly but this could be due to bad gauges.

    If anyone has a flow meter installed or can do vacuum measurements, this would be an ideal set up to calibrate.

    Thanks again for all your help.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Mark, is it possible that the descrepancies are from the different suction characteristics of AG gravity fed and IG suction pumps?

    Perhaps 2 models are needed, one for AG and one for IG?

  19. Back To Top    #19
    mas985's Avatar
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    Water level has a zero net effect on total head loss. It reduces suction side head but increases return side head by the same amount. Anyway, I take it into account and the descrepencies occur for both IG and AG pools.

    I think it has more to do with the differences in how the plumbing is laid out. I was avoiding having to take that into consideration because it is just too difficult to add up all of the head losses. My approach was to use offsets normalized to pipe diameter.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  20. Back To Top    #20
    DaveNJ's Avatar
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    mas986,
    Do you know of a good place to pick up a suction gauge. On a Northstar do you place it on the basket drain plug or impeller drain plug.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    IG 18x36 oval vinyl, Spill over spa, Northstar 2hp-2spd, 2.5" piping, S310T 500lb Sand filter, 400k gas heater, AutoPilot SWCG
    http://www.tftestkits.net/

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