Recent CPO class/ pool maintenace debacle/Clorox now 6.0% sodium hypo

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BigRobRN

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Jun 14, 2015
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Greenwell Springs, LA
Greetings to all. It has been a while since I have posted. Things are well with my pool and I've been on the TFP method for about 3 years now.
A few things I'd like to shed some light on. I noticed Clorox and Great Value bleach have both lowered their available sodium hypochlorite amounts to 6.0% down from the usual 8.25% it has been since I can remember. I think that is terrible and shame on them. The only Clorox name brand bleach that supposedly still contains 8.25% SH is labeled their "germicidal" bottle. What a bunch of baloney.

I recently took a 3 day course and passed a Certified Pool Operator course in Baldwin County, AL. I found the class very informative and interesting. It taught me some things I did not know, and refreshed my memory about some things I already had learned from owning a pool and from reading on here.

I just replaced all my outdated test solutions and reagents from TFTest kits and I really like that store. Great customer service and speedy delivery as always.

Now, to my debacle. I have a few friends interested in hiring me as their pool maintenance person. But I have a problem. I don't have any idea how to care for their pool as I do mine. To be profitable, I'm assuming it would be a once a week visit type of situation. I just know how I like to test my water, look at my water daily, empty my skimmer basket, and most importantly, CHLORINATE my pool water without all the other ingredients that most people here in Louisiana use for chlorine addition. A recent conversation with a pool maintenance friend of mine revealed a system of weekly visits to his customers and the use of TriClor pucks for continuous chlorination either through an inline chlorinator or placing them in the skimmer basket. AND the use of test strips for water checks. I just don't think I can do that.

I know first hand what the use of TriClor pucks leads to because it happened to me before I knew better. I have been racking my brains on how I could do this on a part time basis without being too OCD like I am when it comes to balancing my pool water. I doubt the individuals I would service would even be willing to empty their skimmer baskets daily or a few times a week like Mon Wed Fri. I know they are not going to be blindly adding or willing to add liquid bleach to their pool.
So, I have no other idea, reasonable at least, profitable at least, of continual safe chlorination other than the stabilized pucks. These are not people with a SWCG either.

Is it at least SOMEWHAT possible to safely use stabilized pucks without the addition of too much CYA over a said amount of time? Without having to constantly drain pool water levels because CYA is getting too high.
I personally have a problem with CYA levels above 80. I know now the National Swimming Pool Foundation states 100 ppm as the acceptable high level of CYA, but it takes way too much FC to do its job at that level.

I'm in a pickle because I'd like to help people without making it rocket science.
 
Nope. What is taught here is not compatible with a weekly pool visit. That’s precisely why your pool service friend does what he does - it’s the only way to be profitable. You throw tabs in the skimmer, jack the FC up to unholy high values with liquid chlorine and hope everything rides out for a week to ten days. You quickly check pH and FC and if the pH has gotten too low from all the pucks eating up the TA, you throw some baking soda in and pinch of soda ash to bring it back up. You ignore CYA until the pool water becomes a problem (when it does, you inform the customer their pool needs to be drained because of some bogus reason you pull out of your hat - bad water, too many “solids”, too many full moons, whatever). You brush the pool, clean out the skimmer basket and make sure their cleaner (pressure or suction) is running around the pool. Oh, and you do all that in 20 mins or less and then hop in your truck and peel-out to your next pool.

That’s not TFPC and TFPC can not be made into a weekly service. Sorry, but the best thing you can do for your friends is to encourage them to read the website and do their own pool care. If they’re unwilling, then it’s on them.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Nope. What is taught here is not compatible with a weekly pool visit. That’s precisely why your pool service friend does what he does - it’s the only way to be profitable. You throw tabs in the skimmer, jack the FC up to unholy high values with liquid chlorine and hope everything rides out for a week to ten days. You quickly check pH and FC and if the pH has gotten too low from all the pucks eating up the TA, you throw some baking soda in and pinch of soda ash to bring it back up. You ignore CYA until the pool water becomes a problem (when it does, you inform the customer their pool needs to be drained because of some bogus reason you pull out of your hat - bad water, too many “solids”, too many full moons, whatever). You brush the pool, clean out the skimmer basket and make sure their cleaner (pressure or suction) is running around the pool. Oh, and you do all that in 20 mins or less and then hop in your truck and peel-out to your next pool.

That’s not TFPC and TFPC can not be made into a weekly service. Sorry, but the best thing you can do for your friends is to encourage them to read the website and do their own pool care. If they’re unwilling, then it’s on them.
Click to expand...
Ouch. Dang. I was hoping for a hidden secret...
 
I do my mother-in-law's pool on that basis. She was getting taken to the cleaners, her pool was green and cloudy, 180/200 ppm CYA, and she lives across town, plus she's well into her golden years. I'm not doing TFPC, but here's my solution, using TFPC principles such as only adding what's needed, based on regular and reliable drop-based testing.

I bought 4 jugs with child-proof lids and she pours half in every day. I vary the amount in the jugs by the FC demand as it changes through the seasons. There's two extra half-jugs, and she's meant to add half a jug if her friend's big dog swims in it, for a lot more people than normal, or a drowned small critter. I go weekly and do the acid, but I take pH a bit lower than I would in my own pool. If FC is low, I take it up to around 15% of CYA while I'm there. She brushes the steps if she's up to it, but otherwise I brush 1/3 of it each week. There's a suction cleaner left in the pool to keep it tidy. When I'm away it'll be done on pucks for 3 weeks.

It wouldn't work for huge leaf fall or some of the pollen episodes you hear about Stateside. She scoops what she can but I'd say the pool owner should be responsible for scooping leaves and emptying the skimmer if it fills up. I'm able to do that on my weekly visits and fit in the backwashing and pump basket after a rain, usually around monthly or a bit longer. She does topping up and draining because the pool has no auto-fill or overflow.

I had to go every day for a while (SLAM to clean it up) then twice a week getting it dialed in (TA down so pH would creep up slower).

Be sure to un-learn a lot of the stuff from the CPO course.

If I was doing this as a job, I would market it as an upscale service, at least double or triple the going rate, maybe more. Say $100ish per week (plus chems) during swim season, and then commit to visit as often as needed to ensure that the pool never turns green and is always safe and available for swimming. It takes much more time in the first season to learn the pool. If you see something happening, be prepared to go every day to trouble-shoot it. Something like black algae needs to be hit fast. Get lots of reagent and test often.

A better way to go, I think, is to talk them into a SWG or include a weekly payment for an SWG, say $15 a week. You buy it, plumb it in, and take care of it, and they get the chlorine. Most of that would be offset (for the customer) in reduced liquid or solid chlorine cost. You would have to own it if charging weekly, so you can take it with you if they fire you or you want to quit because they're... ummm... difficult.

But again, I agree with Matt, it's not TFPC.
 
I think there's a few factors here that would impact whether you can do the job properly and still make money.

Firstly, I agree, they would need to have some sort of chlorine dosing system and the pucks are not ideal. There probably is scope to do a contract though where they agree to retain your services for 2 years and they get the use of a chlorinator and acid feeder during the contract. If they retain your services for 5 years they get to keep the chlorinator and acid feeder. Get yourself set up as a reseller for a decent chlorinator brand and you're paying wholesale not retail, so there is scope to make some profit. You could give them an option to pull out of the contract if they're not happy in the first 6 months, but you get the chlorinator and acid feeder back.

Once pH and chlorine are in control, a weekly service visit becomes an acceptable service level. Rock up check the water make any adjustments required, print out a nice report so they're backed up for any warranty claims they may have for equipment and so on. Depending on the pool size you could throw a robot in to brush and vacuum while you do the rest and off you go. Market it as a premium service. Be prepared to back up your work with a guarantee and there is a decent compromise there I think but you're probably looking at selling the service to the more affluent customers who can pay for it, just be sure to get the contract right because there are plenty of affluent folk out there who didn't get rich by paying their bills.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Nope. What is taught here is not compatible with a weekly pool visit. That’s precisely why your pool service friend does what he does - it’s the only way to be profitable. You throw tabs in the skimmer, jack the FC up to unholy high values with liquid chlorine and hope everything rides out for a week to ten days. You quickly check pH and FC and if the pH has gotten too low from all the pucks eating up the TA, you throw some baking soda in and pinch of soda ash to bring it back up. You ignore CYA until the pool water becomes a problem (when it does, you inform the customer their pool needs to be drained because of some bogus reason you pull out of your hat - bad water, too many “solids”, too many full moons, whatever). You brush the pool, clean out the skimmer basket and make sure their cleaner (pressure or suction) is running around the pool. Oh, and you do all that in 20 mins or less and then hop in your truck and peel-out to your next pool.
Click to expand...

This may be the typical "Pool Service" stereotype, but some of us actually know what we're doing. ;)

I run a very successful pool service business that maintains several residential pools on a weekly basis and use a combination of liquid & 3" tablet chlorine. Every pool is different, and good record keeping is the key for me. So yes, balancing pool chemicals on a weekly basis can be done with no issues if you educate yourself & know what you're doing. :cool:
 
satpoolman said:
This may be the typical "Pool Service" stereotype, but some of us actually know what we're doing. ;)

I maintain several residential pools on a weekly basis and use a combination of liquid & 3" tablet chlorine. Every pool is different, and good record keeping is the key for me. So yes, balancing pool chemicals on a weekly basis can be done with no issues if you educate yourself & know what you're doing. :cool:
Click to expand...

I'm hoping to find a nice medium between being completely OCD about my pool, and being able to do a once a week, maybe twice if needed pool visit schedule. If inline chlorinators work and are adjustable, I can see how it may be possible to chlorinate a pool effectively and keep an eagle eye on CYA levels. But, if the inline chlorinator is not adjustable, or is broke, then chunking the 3" tabs in the skimmer basket makes me nervous.
 
tim5055 said:
Well, we have the following article you may find interesting: Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught

You may be able to pull it off suing a salt water chlorine generator or liquid injection system (Stenner), but over time stabilized products are going to require a drain/fill.
Click to expand...
So with rainfall and splash out and UV ray exposure, there is little chance of keeping CYA in check over a said amount of time?
 

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BigRobRN said:
So with rainfall and splash out and UV ray exposure, there is little chance of keeping CYA in check over a said amount of time?
Click to expand...
Discounting both UV (as it doesn’t break down CYA) and rainfall (unless water is pumped out because of the rainfall) splash out ain’t gonna cut it.

Some northern areas can get away with using pucks all the time because they pump a lot of water out to winterize.
 
I am anti-pool-guy and anti-once-a-week. Is there some guy, somewhere, that can properly take care of some pool, somewhere, once a week? A pool in a mild climate, with an owner that swims in it, alone, exactly one hour every day? (The key word there is "properly.") Maybe, I suppose. But that would be the exception that proves the rule. By and large, I'll say it, the once-a-week pool maintenance business model is a sham. And shame on anyone selling the service, because you either know it is, or should know it is! You might be able to keep the water clear. But at least some number of days of the week it is likely not healthy to swim in. But even if you can manage healthy water for seven days in a row, your compromised maintenance practices to do so will inevitably cost the client in years of reduced pool longevity. Pucks, give me a break. The damage to the pool caused by profit-driven maintenance shortcuts is the nasty little secret no pool guy divulges, and no client is aware of. The damage happens, the pool guy pawns it off as normal, and the client pays for replacement believing that's just the way it is. It's despicable is what it is. The average pool guy can't make a profit taking care of the average pool as it should be done. And that's because the average client is not willing to pay what proper pool service should cost! So neither is doing service to the other. Something has to give, either the quality of the water, or the longevity of the pool surface. Usually both. You can't address both once a week. Period. And that's the OP's dilemma. I don't care if anybody agrees or not. I've seen this with my own eyes. "The Weekly Sham" cost me $9000+. It is my truth. That's my rant. :rant:


But here's my suggestion. needsajet is part way to what I think a viable, honorable pool maintenance business model could look like. Part service, part education, part training. I think it could even be done at a lower monthly cost to the client, and possibly with a better profit to the vendor. Certainly the health of the pool would be way better.

I haven't worked out details, of course, just blowin' smoke, but it would be similar to needsajet's idea, only a few steps farther: Sell the TFP method, not the daily servicing. Show up at a client's pool, sell them a proper test kit, show them how to use it. As many times as it takes. Walk them through what needs to be done to balance the water. Explain about skimming and brushing and bather loads and what exactly makes a pool either successful or not. Charts, pictures, graphs, whatever. Teach them how to dose their pool, safely and easily (the daily dose rations a la needsajet could be employed) and charge them appropriately for the initial visit. Subsequent visits could be as often as every day, then taper to once a week to once a month. Then upsell the client with whatever they don't want to do (filter cleaning, brushing, acid, the more complicated tests, whatever (all the things that don't need to be done every day or two)). Then the subsequent weekly, bi-weekly or monthly visits would cover the "premium task" items, and refresher courses for the daily stuff, as well as proper oversight for the whole process (thorough testing of water and equipment, etc). This, of course, would require the client's willing participation in the day to day stuff, which is the wild card of this idea, but I think there could be a substantial user base out there that is currently intimidated by pool care but could be "brought to the fold" and convinced that doing the easy stuff often and having an expert showing up periodically to do the rough stuff, and oversee things, is ultimately cost effective and beneficial to the client, in terms of both pool water health and pool equipment/surface longevity. The trick for the service provider would be volume. Trying to take care of a pool alone, once a week, in 10 or fifteen minutes is not possible, we know that, so your only going to be giving poor service to a limited amount of clients. But partnering with a client, and just overseeing them, but less often, might mean you could have more clients and guide them to a better pool, charge them less than weekly service companies, all while being compensated appropriately for your time.

You'd need some slick marketing material, to explain the methodology, along with the consequences of using the typical weekly service sham. You know, scare tactics! But seriously, something that illuminates the folly and inadequacy of weekly maintenance, while offering and explaining the viable, doable, alternative. Pool maintenance is black magic to the average person. It's why they all balk at us TFP evangelists, and continue to turn to pool stores and pools guys, and why those both are still ruling the roost. If one could get the opportunity to dispel the myths and expose the sham, in person, one could sell the alternative pretty easily, I think, and make some money doing it.

Something like that there...
 
BigRobRN said:
I'm hoping to find a nice medium between being completely OCD about my pool, and being able to do a once a week, maybe twice if needed pool visit schedule. If inline chlorinators work and are adjustable, I can see how it may be possible to chlorinate a pool effectively and keep an eagle eye on CYA levels. But, if the inline chlorinator is not adjustable, or is broke, then chunking the 3" tabs in the skimmer basket makes me nervous.
Click to expand...

It can be done. Good luck!

Regards,
E
 
Just my $.02
I have been pondering this very thing as my retirement is just weeks away.

I think the correct approach is to sell a Service for the DIY'er. Teach them the TFP method, guide them to the site, provide test-kit and onsite face-to-face measurements, troubleshooting, etc., for x weeks. Then possibly a monthly retainer or fee based per visit cost.

Forget the people that want someone else to do it. Many people just want to pay someone to take care of things for them. I find it hard to derive a business plan with TFP methods doing 100% of the work.
 
peirek said:
Just my $.02
I have been pondering this very thing as my retirement is just weeks away.

I think the correct approach is to sell a Service for the DIY'er. Teach them the TFP method, guide them to the site, provide test-kit and onsite face-to-face measurements, troubleshooting, etc., for x weeks. Then possibly a monthly retainer or fee based per visit cost.

Forget the people that want someone else to do it. Many people just want to pay someone to take care of things for them. I find it hard to derive a business plan with TFP methods doing 100% of the work.
Click to expand...

Wait, that's exactly what I said, but not nearly so succinctly! (#14, above). Plus I buried the idea in a rant about pool pros. I think this is a brilliant idea, and quite possibly a viable business model, but no one else seemed to think so...
 

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