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Thread: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

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    Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Attached is a picture of pool piping. Pool Builder has redone piping like 3 times and there is always 1 weak sheer. Using a Hayward Super Pump II 2.5 hp to run just the 6 sheer descents. Does anyone see a better way of piping it? Would a 3.0 hp motor work better? 2 of the sheers have levels to reduce pressure but not the other 4. Still not enough power. The pool picture shows 4 waterfalls but there are 2 more on planter. Please help me out. Thanks.

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    On the vast majority of pools I've serviced, the solution seems to be to put a ball valve on every return. That way you can tweak each individually until they are in balance. By piping alone it is a logistical nightmare to get 6 falls to all flow equally.
    I might add that each foot of sheer descent requires a minimum of 10 gpm. i.e. 12 feet of SD requires 120 gpm. Hopefully your suction line to the pump will supply that, and your pump will take it.
    I see cavitation on water feature pumps many times.

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    needsajet's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    That's good advice above. Ball valves can be set partially open to control flow, as can pool valves. I would use pool valves if they're in direct sun.

    They could be hidden behind the feature wall above ground (handiest) or below ground in service boxes. You can also run separate pipes to each feature with the throttling valves at the pad, if that's an option.
    12k IG salt; glass beads in plaster; K-2006C, K-1766, K-1106 and CCL test kits; Pentair Eco800 1.2HP VS; Zodiac SWCG 1.3 lb/day (25 g/hr); 25" filter recycled glass; OKU solar panels; 1/2 HP solar pump; Rebel (Warrior) pool cleaner; FlowViz; Other family pools 10K SWCG and 15K on liquid; PoolMath app subscriber; | Tips for New Members to get the best possible advice | ... and this helped me a lot!: TFPC for Beginners

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Thanks yesterday it was changed. And its worse. More pictures added. I will let them know about the valves u suggested.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here are the pictures

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Updated pictures
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    What size is all of the pipe?
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    from motor 3" and then 2" pictures above

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    I agree with Mayorb, the only way to balance this is to have a valve on every supply to each SD. This would require either each SD pipe be home run back to the equipment pad or you will have to hide the valves in the ground/landscaping closer to the pool.
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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    I would have run the larger diameter pipe all the way to the the sheers then only tapped off with the smalle pipe when you get near each sheer. That looks like 1” pipe feeding the sheer and I’m not sure that pipe can support enough flow. As others have said, you absolutely need adjustable ball valves on each sheer to make fine adjustments or else the water flow is simply going to divide itself up based on the inherent head loss of each sheer - the greater the head loss (ie, the sheer that’s furthest away) then the less flow it will get.

    Do the sheers have their own pump and suction source or is this all being driven by the main pool pump?
    Matt
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayorb View Post
    On the vast majority of pools I've serviced, the solution seems to be to put a ball valve on every return. That way you can tweak each individually until they are in balance. By piping alone it is a logistical nightmare to get 6 falls to all flow equally.
    I might add that each foot of sheer descent requires a minimum of 10 gpm. i.e. 12 feet of SD requires 120 gpm. Hopefully your suction line to the pump will supply that, and your pump will take it.
    I see cavitation on water feature pumps many times.
    Thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes they have a Separate 2.5 Hayward Super Pump II.

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    I would suggest the IntelliFloXF pump for best performance.

    Ideally, the suction should be 3". For the returns, I would do individual 1.5" lines to each with separate valves for best control.
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    thanks

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    I would have run the larger diameter pipe all the way to the the sheers then only tapped off with the smalle pipe when you get near each sheer. That looks like 1Ē pipe feeding the sheer and Iím not sure that pipe can support enough flow. As others have said, you absolutely need adjustable ball valves on each sheer to make fine adjustments or else the water flow is simply going to divide itself up based on the inherent head loss of each sheer - the greater the head loss (ie, the sheer thatís furthest away) then the less flow it will get.

    Do the sheers have their own pump and suction source or is this all being driven by the main pool pump?
    I am attaching how it was originally done by the pool builder. The one doing my remodel changed it. The weakest one was that last one on the picture. Here the 3" pipe ran all across. But had a funky connection at end which made it weak.

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    That is how mine was done but with ball valves at each decent.
    8500 gallon IG Pebble Sheen with Spa. 3hp Pentair VS Intelliflo ( pool ), 3/4 hp WhisperFlo ( water feature ),Pentair Racer, 400K Pentair heater, Pentair 500sqft Cartridge filter, EasyTouch 8, Stenner 45mp2 15gallon wired to ET8

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    I am gathering from your updated pictures your pool guy effectively made a form of a plumbing loop to maintain pressure?

    Analysis of Plumbing Loops and Other Configurations
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    yes he did, but most of the connections were not as clean as those diagrams. Thanks for the link of loops. They will come out Monday and re do.

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Got new plumbing done with valve at each one. It has improved but i notice on 2 of them like a blockage. I think when the new tile and coping was put its not a clear path for them.. Please zoom picture and let me know what you think.

    Feel like it needs a little more boost. Anyone think going from 2.5 motor to 3HP make a difference? its 3 inch pipe then goes to 2.


    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    needsajet's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    They look good to me, but I cant get a decent picture file quality. I would crank up the heater and float/bob under all four
    12k IG salt; glass beads in plaster; K-2006C, K-1766, K-1106 and CCL test kits; Pentair Eco800 1.2HP VS; Zodiac SWCG 1.3 lb/day (25 g/hr); 25" filter recycled glass; OKU solar panels; 1/2 HP solar pump; Rebel (Warrior) pool cleaner; FlowViz; Other family pools 10K SWCG and 15K on liquid; PoolMath app subscriber; | Tips for New Members to get the best possible advice | ... and this helped me a lot!: TFPC for Beginners

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    for the 6 sheers..Would a Waterfall pump be better? If so which one do you recommend? I noticed on the current 3 hp pump cavitation. I had to shut off 3 sheers to get good flow.

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    Re: Help with Piping to get 6 Sheer Descents flowing Equally

    Cavitation is happening on the suction side likely because the pipe is too long of run or possibly restricted as 3” usually is fine. Blocking some sheer decents reduces the flow alleviating the problem. A bigger pump won’t necessarily help (unless it has a better suction lift rating). I have a 3hp pump running 3ea 24” units and ball valves in each line to control and balance flow. If you don’t have a ball valve in each sheer decent pipe, you can’t evenly adjust flow. Sounds like they are in place? If so, Suggest you start with each valve 1/4 way open and see if pump,will run without cavitation. Slowly increase one by one each valve to even the flow. Once they are open enough to cause pump cavitation. Close each down slightly reducing flow evenly to each and hopefully you will have so,ething to looks good and works OK.
    18,000 gunite pool/spa combo. Pebble tec, iaqualink rs8, cl580 filter, aquapure 1400, 400k btu lx heater, 10 solar panels, jandy 1hp, 1 1/2hp, and 2hp stealth pumps for circ, spa, waterfall

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