outdoor kitchen island build, questions

[pecker88]

Retaining wall is about 10' high at the highest point. I want to build a bbq island along the wall, brick oven is at the end of the island. It had to be at a 45 deg. angle because it's much deeper then the counter-top.

Plan is for contractors to pour a level concrete pad to build the bbq island on, but I don't know how close the structure should be to the wall.

Too much of a gap will put the front of the island in the way of the patio door.

Current design leaves a 2.5" gap between bottom of island and wall. At the top of the island, the gap would be atleast 1 ft, because the wall isn't vertical, it slopes away from the island like all retaining walls.

But, there's no way I could finish the back of the island with 2.5" gap at the bottom.

Maybe build the back of the island out of concrete block, leave it unfinished, then the remaining sides/internal structure would be metal studs, backer board and finished with stone?

Anyone have any insight?

 

[Dirk]

Not quite understanding... Why are you concerned about finishing the back of the island? Why don't you just ditch the backsplash and extend the countertop (whatever material you're using), off the back of the island to flush up to the wall (as flush as possible, anyway)? It'll hide whatever is back there, and give you more counter space. As long as it's not too much of a stretch to reach or clean, etc. Like building an overhanging bar, only in the back instead of the front. I'd find some way to seal that off somehow, too, cause you know all kinds of things are going to fall back there (even if you stick with the backsplash). What is your countertop material?

That is one giant oven! What are you disposing of, uh, I mean cooking in there!?!

 

[pecker88]

Not quite understanding... Why are you concerned about finishing the back of the island? Why don't you just ditch the backsplash and extend the countertop (whatever material you're using), off the back of the island to flush up to the wall (as flush as possible, anyway)? It'll hide whatever is back there, and give you more counter space. As long as it's not too much of a stretch to reach or clean, etc. Like building an overhanging bar, only in the back instead of the front. I'd find some way to seal that off somehow, too, cause you know all kinds of things are going to fall back there (even if you stick with the backsplash). What is your countertop material?

That is one giant oven! What are you disposing of, uh, I mean cooking in there!?!

My plan is metal studs and PermaBase concrete board, then finish with stone. I don't want to leave the back PermaBase exposed indefinitely, hence the concrete block idea. The weather here is harsh, freeze/thaw, super hot, monsoon rains, tons of snow, ect... I think the block would stand up to any weather while the PermaBase wouldn't.

I dont' want any part of the island touching the wall, so the 2 structures can move independently.

Countertop will be granite. If I did away with backsplash, where would the elec. outlets go?

Oven is huge, here's the manual. Clay oven, all reviews I've read say it's the best. Pizzas, breads, roasts, ect... can't wait!!
https://mugnaini.app.box.com/v/Medio-100-AOS-Manual

 

[Dirk]

OK, I see them now. Are those adhering to code? They wouldn't pass where I live, too close to the counter, even if this were indoors. I like the idea of keeping the two structures apart, that sounds prudent. Hmmm, do you even need a back wall? Just frame in metal and PermaBase for the face? Is this exposed to weather? Are you trying to keep water/moisture out of the inside? Build the whole thing out of block and ditch the metal? Sorry, not being particularly helpful. Just brainstorming with ya...

 

[pecker88]

NEC doesn't have any requirements for receptacle height above counter that I'm aware of, except that it cannot be face-up in the counter.

Yes, the back needs to be enclosed with something. In the winter, it would blow and fill the inside with snow, then freeze/thaw and implode the structure.

Block seems like it would be more difficult then metal. We used to live in Phoenix and I built an island out of metal, turned out great. Here's my thread:
bbq island framing question

 

[jimim]

Me personally I would want everything to look symmetrical. So I would have the pizza oven in the middle even though it sticks out further and flank it with everything else. If u r going to have a grill they usually need more depth also due to lid clearance. I would make the full run of the island as close to the wall as I can without touching and run granite as close to as I can so your eye doesn’t pick up on it without a backsplash. Can u surface mount outlets intoxicating the granite. They would be in the back and flat. They wouldn’t stick up much at all. Of have an outlet or 2 in the ends of the cabinet runs if they don’t touch up against a perpendicular wall.

pizza ovens are cool. My buddy builds them from the ground up. He is from Italy. Used to build hem over there now he is doing them for folks in my area. He is big into making them like domes all tiles with 1x1’s in various patterns and colors. Pretty crazy work.

 

[shanebo]

Just bring it out enough so you have enough room to finish the back bottom. You don't need much room -- maybe 3-6" if you're using stacked stone. Or, if you don't care how it looks, just cover the back bottom with pavers or concrete stepstone. I wouldn't want my kitchen to have one block wall and three steel/hardieboard walls. Although I'm sure it could be done, sounds like a recipe for separation/cracking.

 

[pecker88]

Just bring it out enough so you have enough room to finish the back bottom. You don't need much room -- maybe 3-6" if you're using stacked stone. Or, if you don't care how it looks, just cover the back bottom with pavers or concrete stepstone. I wouldn't want my kitchen to have one block wall and three steel/hardieboard walls. Although I'm sure it could be done, sounds like a recipe for separation/cracking.

What are you thoughts of floating (monolithic) slab?

The perimeter of the slab is 12" deep x 8" wide, then the middle of slab is 6" thick. 2x #4 rebar are placed toward the bottom of the 12" deep footer. 5"x5" square concrete mesh is used in the 6" thick slab. This type of floating slab is code for bldgs less than 500 sq ft.

The other option is a frost free footer, 36" deep, 4" wide 1x #4 rebar at bottom, another at the top.

The oven will put quite a load on the slab, it's about 9' tall and will be faced in heavy natural stone.
The island obiv. won't be that heavy, but still substantial due to granite counters and natural stone face.

 

[shanebo]

What are you thoughts of floating (monolithic) slab?

The perimeter of the slab is 12" deep x 8" wide, then the middle of slab is 6" thick. 2x #4 rebar are placed toward the bottom of the 12" deep footer. 5"x5" square concrete mesh is used in the 6" thick slab. This type of floating slab is code for bldgs less than 500 sq ft.

The other option is a frost free footer, 36" deep, 4" wide 1x #4 rebar at bottom, another at the top.

The oven will put quite a load on the slab, it's about 9' tall and will be faced in heavy natural stone.
The island obiv. won't be that heavy, but still substantial due to granite counters and natural stone face.

I think the floating foundation would definitely be sufficient for the kitchen -- steel stud and hardieboard construction is pretty light, and adding granite and stone veneer, while heavy, isn't an unreasonably large load. You're still probably less than 1/4 of the total weight if you were to build out of cinder blocks.

For the oven, my initial inclination was to suggest footers, as it seems like it will be extremely heavy. BUT the specs only call for a 6" concrete pad atop 6" of stone. Based on this, it looks like the floating foundation would be sufficient for the oven, too.

Of course, this assumes that your soil is/can be compacted, stone/aggregate under pad (my guy would use crushed concrete), proper drainage at base of retaining wall, etc.

What are you planning to build your deck out of? I'm asking because 4" of stamped concrete atop 4-6" of compacted, crushed concrete -- the typical deck protocol in my neck of the woods -- would almost certainly support your kitchen. Then you could do a separate, beefier foundation for the oven. Just a thought, could save you a few bucks. If you're doing a paver deck, however, you'll want to have a separate foundation for your kitchen/oven, as per your original plan.

 

[pecker88]

I think the floating foundation would definitely be sufficient for the kitchen -- steel stud and hardieboard construction is pretty light, and adding granite and stone veneer, while heavy, isn't an unreasonably large load. You're still probably less than 1/4 of the total weight if you were to build out of cinder blocks.

For the oven, my initial inclination was to suggest footers, as it seems like it will be extremely heavy. BUT the specs only call for a 6" concrete pad atop 6" of stone. Based on this, it looks like the floating foundation would be sufficient for the oven, too.

Of course, this assumes that your soil is/can be compacted, stone/aggregate under pad (my guy would use crushed concrete), proper drainage at base of retaining wall, etc.

What are you planning to build your deck out of? I'm asking because 4" of stamped concrete atop 4-6" of compacted, crushed concrete -- the typical deck protocol in my neck of the woods -- would almost certainly support your kitchen. Then you could do a separate, beefier foundation for the oven. Just a thought, could save you a few bucks. If you're doing a paver deck, however, you'll want to have a separate foundation for your kitchen/oven, as per your original plan.

I think I'll use the floating slab spec from our local bldg department.

Contractors are pouring separate footers/pad for the bbq island and brick oven. The remainder of the patio will be pavers.
Here's a new layout with the oven installed in the corner, rather then twisted 45 deg. Seems to flow much better. I also confirmed a 3' setback with gas firepit from the deck, so brought the firepit and seating in a bit also.

 

[Dirk]

Nice. This is a much improved layout design, both aesthetically, and snow-trapping-wise. Now the oven belongs to the rest of kitchen and allows more room in front of it, too.

 

[shanebo]

Agree that I like this design much better. Looks great with the firepit and seating area moved in.

One more thing to think about/check on before finalizing your design is clearance for your grill. Looks like you have more than enough room on the back side for the grill lid to open and close, but you should also check local codes to make sure it's far enough away from combustible materials (left, right, and overhead). I think in my area it's a foot or two on each side, maybe 4 feet overhead, but I can't recall exactly.

Good luck on the build!

 

[bpricedo]

It won't be hard to build against a sloping retaining wall. I built an island based on an e-book I bought on building outdoor kitchen islands and that method would work well for you. Basically you use the channel part of the metal wall system instead of the studs and build a system of ribs, then connect these ribs together with a long piece of channel with cutouts for the ribs to fit into. If you do it this way, the upper depth of the rib can be longer than the bottom so that the back will match the slope of your retaining wall. You wouldn't even need to cover the back with CBB but you can obviously. Then when you rock or tile the ends of the island, the rock or tile can be butted up to your retaining wall and won't leave a gap. On the backsplash, you can just build a section of wall with studs and channel at whatever height you want the backsplash to be and fasten it to the main part of the island. Then you can trim the CBB to match the slope as well. Whatever you use to cap the backsplash, rock, granite, whatever, can fill the gap on top between backsplash and retaining wall. Here is my island built using this "rib" method.

 

[pecker88]

contractors started the project last week, making good progress.

When they were forming up the pad for the kitchen island (against retaining wall in pic, post #10) they obviously encountered the concrete footing for the house.
They added expansion form between the frost-free footing and the 12" thick outdoor kitchen pad.

I really want to leave only a 1-2" space between the outdoor kitchen and the existing foundation wall. Is it OK for the concrete block of the kitchen island to straddle the floating pad and frost-free footer? My thoughts are the ground nearest the house won't freeze, hence no heave...??

 

[shanebo]

It's risky. Anytime you attach a rigid structure (i.e., your kitchen) to two different types of unconnected foundations (floating and footer) you run the risk that the foundations will move independently and your structure will crack. Think about it -- the reason they put the expansion joint between the foundations is so they can move independently. I don't know the chance of that occurring -- could be minimal if the base is solid, soil is compacted, no groundwater/runoff, etc. -- but it's definitely a possibility. Wonder if there is some sort of expansion joint that you can rest your block on? Almost like an expansion joint footer for your kitchen? That could absorb small shifts and minimize the risk of cracking.

 

[Dirk]

Could the footprint of the kitchen island be entirely on the kitchen pad (the first course of block), and then the second course sort of cantilever out past the first course, over the house footer, to get you back to the dimension you want from the foundation wall? That way the entire kitchen island is sitting on, and would move with, the pad, but still be close enough to the wall...

Sort'a like how kitchen cabinet lowers "cantilever" out over your feet, so you can stand closer, but the overhang in this case would be in the back. Maybe in front and back, back over the footer, front over your feet.

So in your drawing of post #14, the two blocks would be the bottom course, the three blocks, would be the next course.

 

[pecker88]

These are great questions and potential solutions...

Wonder if there is some sort of expansion joint that you can rest your block on? Almost like an expansion joint footer for your kitchen? That could absorb small shifts and minimize the risk of cracking.

Could the footprint of the kitchen island be entirely on the kitchen pad (the first course of block), and then the second course sort of cantilever out past the first course, over the house footer, to get you back to the dimension you want from the foundation wall?

I'm thinking about just keeping the block on the floating kitchen isl. pad, then adding some some sort of false "filler" that would fill the void between the foundation wall and kitchen island. The filler would have to "float" and would be faced with the same stone. The grill and double doors would still fit.