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Thread: So this just happened...

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    Exclamation So this just happened...

    Days of rain plus very old fiberglass equals me renting a sump pump.... looking for suggestions... on how to fix or who in the garland tx area could quote me a possible replacement.... who has financing...
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    T.I.A.....
    20,000 gallons, in ground, fiberglass, sand filter

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    borjis's Avatar
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    Re: So this just happened...

    whoa!

    The pool buckled in from the side?

    That seems like an installation/backfill failure.
    Did you have it installed or came with the house when you bought?

    so sorry

    Wondering if your homeowners insurance covers repair/replace.
    16x32 IG Vinyl, 13,000 Gals. Hayward S-244T sand filter, SP2810X15 pump
    (1.5 HP motor) Raypak PR266AEN (266k btu) gas heater. TF-100 Test Kit.
    Dolphin E10 Cleaning Robot.

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: So this just happened...

    OH man! I have a huge sad for you!!! The rain has been crazy there but man

    Lets play detective......look real close at that wall.........any cracks? If nothing big you might be able to "patch" it once you get the water gone from the area that is pushing the wall in. Then you will need to remove the decking/coping so you can work on the backfill like talked about above.
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    PoolGate's Avatar
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    Re: So this just happened...

    Oh no! This is going to be expensive so hopefully homeowners will cover. If it was water from rain, I do believe that is a covered event, as long as your pool is part of the policy.
    29k Gallon Free Form Gunite Pool, 3 floor returns, 2 wall returns, 1 vacuum pressure port, 2 skimmers, Main drain, Jandy 2.7HP VSP, Jandy JXI400N Gas Heater, Jandy CV340 Cartridge Filter, FusionSoft 1400 SWG, 2 Watercolors LED, iAqualink with PDA, Sheer Waterfall, Rock Waterfall, 9' Deep End w/Diving Board, SunDeck, Polaris 9650iQ, TF-100 - Pool Build - 2017 - Google Photos

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    borjis's Avatar
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    Re: So this just happened...

    I was just thinking, if excessive rain did that, then the installers may not have been aware
    to put in a drywell next to it. I'm assuming that will need to happen as part of the repair
    to prevent it happening again.
    16x32 IG Vinyl, 13,000 Gals. Hayward S-244T sand filter, SP2810X15 pump
    (1.5 HP motor) Raypak PR266AEN (266k btu) gas heater. TF-100 Test Kit.
    Dolphin E10 Cleaning Robot.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: So this just happened...

    Was the pool empty or drained down prior to all the rain you got? The pool wall appears to be pushed into the pool (from the picture) and not outwards so that would seem to suggest there wasn’t enough water in the pool to hold the shell in place
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by borjis View Post
    whoa!

    The pool buckled in from the side?

    That seems like an installation/backfill failure.
    Did you have it installed or came with the house when you bought?

    so sorry

    Wondering if your homeowners insurance covers repair/replace.
    We bought the house about a year ago - and it looks from the original plans that the pool was part of the original house amenities... in 1973.... so.... we knew it was oh-so-old but thought we'd get at least one more season before having to plan for a new pool scenario... We could tell from walking over the coping that it sounded hollow, and knew from researching the timeline for how these were installed back in the day that it was likely a sand backfill, and figured it had shifted a little over the years as there was slight bulges out when we bought it. But we had no idea so much water was filling under the coping or that the void under there was so big to even collect so much water. I'd guess 1/5 or so of the volume of our actual pool.

    Not sure about insurance covering it yet but we shall see... we don't have flood insurance as it was recommended that we wouldn't need it in our area... so not sure it wouldn't be covered anyway because it's water damage? will have to hash out details with USAA to see...
    20,000 gallons, in ground, fiberglass, sand filter

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats View Post
    OH man! I have a huge sad for you!!! The rain has been crazy there but man

    Lets play detective......look real close at that wall.........any cracks? If nothing big you might be able to "patch" it once you get the water gone from the area that is pushing the wall in. Then you will need to remove the decking/coping so you can work on the backfill like talked about above.
    thanks for the sad face - i definitely used some expletives when I heard it happen and came outside to see it.
    I think there are definitely 2 small cracks at LEAST - couple small spots near the deep end where it looks like sand is sliding in and down the pool wall where I assume there to be cracks. And a couple places at the top are cracking at the top of the liner where it's getting bent.

    The amazing thing is that it's finally stopped raining but the void just keeps filling up! I'm looking for a spot where it's a large crack or something to where the pool water might be trying to equalize between the inside and outside but i'm not seeing that. It looks like it's trickling downward from the direction of the house down into the void - above the pool water line. Is it possible there is THAT much water held in the ground around the house/yard? Makes me worry for my foundation if so...

    Talked to a fiberglass install company up here yesterday and (though I'm sure they would also just like to see me a pool) they said it's pretty much done-zo. I tend to agree since I'm not sure we could even have the back fill fixed (replace all the sand with pea gravel or what have you) for a cost that wouldn't be the same as a nice down payment on a new one. Between the site work and the land work (and my husbands truck almost being paid off) I think I'd rather just go new I guess and push up that timeline. And at least have the positive note of having a LITTLE bit of fun designing the new yardscape/staycation area.

    They also said it would be cheaper for us to dig a new pool location in our backyard (which is thankfully big enough to do that) and just fill in the old with the dirt from the new. Anyone know of any issues (beyond removing/capping old plumbing lines first) with that scenario to be aware of? They said they'd drain the old slowly and punch a hole in the bottom to keep it from floating up with more rain/ground water in the future. Would it be smart or not smart to try to pour concrete slab above for maybe a future pool house or at least some hammocks?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you PoolGate - We will check!! And thanks everyone for comments so far and apologies for slow replies. I've been in shock for a day or two... Coming back to reality now...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by borjis View Post
    I was just thinking, if excessive rain did that, then the installers may not have been aware
    to put in a drywell next to it. I'm assuming that will need to happen as part of the repair
    to prevent it happening again.
    Talk to me about a drywell... new enough to being a pool owner that I don't know what this is... but sounds helpful!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Was the pool empty or drained down prior to all the rain you got? The pool wall appears to be pushed into the pool (from the picture) and not outwards so that would seem to suggest there wasn’t enough water in the pool to hold the shell in place
    Pool has never been empty or drained since we purchased the home last year. It has been at a water level same or a little less than this one in the past when I had to do a long vacuum (and was even less knowledgeable about the pool) but was quickly refilled when i realized how far down it was... But it was summer and had been dry so I assume there wasn't (as much) water behind it or just air and sand backfill.

    Just the awesome power of nature and moving water I guess. Gotta respect it!
    20,000 gallons, in ground, fiberglass, sand filter

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: So this just happened...

    Filling in a hole is not as simple as simply dumping dirt in it. If the new fill is not properly compacted relative to the soil around it, it will settle, heave and wash out for years to come. If you want to go that direction, then you need to engage an independent civil engineering firm with someone who knows how to do soil analysis. The backfill will likely require a mix of different materials like stones, crusher run and fill sand that is properly compacted at each stage to ensure the surrounding soil, ie, what your house sits on, doesn’t shift.

    My guess is, to do it right, the removal and fill job would cost a significant fraction of what a new pool would cost.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: So this just happened...

    If they do fill in where the old one was they will need to do it right-in 4" lifts (4" inch of dirt at a time) and compacted after each lift. If it is not done the correct way it could settle and have to be added to over time. I would NOT put any think on top of it for at least 6months or so depending on the rain amount-lots of rain will help do this.

    It really sounds like it is new pool time. Better safe that sorry. I do wonder where all of the "extra" water is coming from. Do you have a water meter? Could there be a water line break? Talk to your neighbors that have been there for a while and see what they have to say about the water table in your area.

    We will get you all set up! It will be better than before!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by rwilki2 View Post
    We bought the house about a year ago - and it looks from the original plans that the pool was part of the original house amenities... in 1973.... so.... we knew it was oh-so-old but thought we'd get at least one more season before having to plan for a new pool scenario... We could tell from walking over the coping that it sounded hollow, and knew from researching the timeline for how these were installed back in the day that it was likely a sand backfill, and figured it had shifted a little over the years as there was slight bulges out when we bought it. But we had no idea so much water was filling under the coping or that the void under there was so big to even collect so much water. I'd guess 1/5 or so of the volume of our actual pool.

    Not sure about insurance covering it yet but we shall see... we don't have flood insurance as it was recommended that we wouldn't need it in our area... so not sure it wouldn't be covered anyway because it's water damage? will have to hash out details with USAA to see...
    Flood insurance = water that comes from below. Water that comes from above (rain) is a covered event on just about all homeowners policies.
    29k Gallon Free Form Gunite Pool, 3 floor returns, 2 wall returns, 1 vacuum pressure port, 2 skimmers, Main drain, Jandy 2.7HP VSP, Jandy JXI400N Gas Heater, Jandy CV340 Cartridge Filter, FusionSoft 1400 SWG, 2 Watercolors LED, iAqualink with PDA, Sheer Waterfall, Rock Waterfall, 9' Deep End w/Diving Board, SunDeck, Polaris 9650iQ, TF-100 - Pool Build - 2017 - Google Photos

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Fill in the old pool with gravel if you are planning on building on top of it. That is a much better way to fill it in and less likely to create future probloems.
    Over 30 years in the pool business
    We build vinyl, fiberglass, stainless steel pools
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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by swimcmp View Post
    Fill in the old pool with gravel if you are planning on building on top of it. That is a much better way to fill it in and less likely to create future probloems.
    GREAT idea! Thanks!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGate View Post
    Flood insurance = water that comes from below. Water that comes from above (rain) is a covered event on just about all homeowners policies.
    Insurance adjuster came out and said none of it is covered. and we have I SAW. Clearly I should have done some more research and added additional coverage. His husband my them as I'm traveling for work so I'll call and get more details but... might be word of warning to other old pool owners out there to check their coverage sooner than later!
    20,000 gallons, in ground, fiberglass, sand filter

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by rwilki2 View Post
    GREAT idea! Thanks!!

    - - - Updated - - -



    Insurance adjuster came out and said none of it is covered. and we have I SAW. Clearly I should have done some more research and added additional coverage. His husband my them as I'm traveling for work so I'll call and get more details but... might be word of warning to other old pool owners out there to check their coverage sooner than later!
    Before giving up on insurance, contact a public adjuster and see what they have to say. Insurance reps often lie and minimize damage to avoid paying claims. This is why public adjusters exist.
    29k Gallon Free Form Gunite Pool, 3 floor returns, 2 wall returns, 1 vacuum pressure port, 2 skimmers, Main drain, Jandy 2.7HP VSP, Jandy JXI400N Gas Heater, Jandy CV340 Cartridge Filter, FusionSoft 1400 SWG, 2 Watercolors LED, iAqualink with PDA, Sheer Waterfall, Rock Waterfall, 9' Deep End w/Diving Board, SunDeck, Polaris 9650iQ, TF-100 - Pool Build - 2017 - Google Photos

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    Re: So this just happened...

    I would suggest you do some significant research with respect to filling in the old pool. There could be local building code regulations regarding proper removal and backfill and, if the shell is left in the ground, that is something that would have to be disclosed to future buyers or else you risk liability lawsuits. Even if it costs a little bit of money upfront to get a proper engineering analysis done, it may be well worth it to avoid future property damage or liability.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: So this just happened...

    before going to your home owners policy, when you bought the house did you maybe buy a 2 or 3 year warranty? Lot of ppl buy them.
    Pricing out 34x17 w/ 7x7 raise spa (inner dimmensions), will finalize quote and get going asap.

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    I would suggest you do some significant research with respect to filling in the old pool. There could be local building code regulations regarding proper removal and backfill and, if the shell is left in the ground, that is something that would have to be disclosed to future buyers or else you risk liability lawsuits. Even if it costs a little bit of money upfront to get a proper engineering analysis done, it may be well worth it to avoid future property damage or liability.
    GREAT advice. Will look into!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by martuned View Post
    before going to your home owners policy, when you bought the house did you maybe buy a 2 or 3 year warranty? Lot of ppl buy them.
    We do have an extended home warranty but the pool portion will only cover the pump and above ground lines...which we already used last summer to fix a pump issue. Doesn't cover these shenanigans unfortunately but good thinking!
    20,000 gallons, in ground, fiberglass, sand filter

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    Re: So this just happened...

    I have been researching FB pools for 2 years in anticipation of my 2018 install.
    I have read every story of pool failure there is. Sand, will flow when saturated. It's a poor choice of backfill material. Also, the pool deck is so important as part of the total system. The pool deck should be concrete and in case the rim of the pool shell. There are many other things but those come to mind when I look at your picture.

    I feel bad for you. 45 years is pretty amazing when you think about it. I was born in 73 and I am falling apart too.
    Blue Hawaiian “Wellington” FG pool 6500 Gal. Raypak 266 NG Nickle plated, 3/4hp Hayward super pump, Heater Reader wifi / app controller. Pentair 420 sq' cartridge filter. Hayward 25k SWG
    Pal LED pool lighting. Jandy K-1100 Electronic Autofiller Build thread here: 2018: Fiberglass install uxbridge ointario

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    Re: So this just happened...

    The biggest thing with any pool is controlling ground water. If there is no provision to get rid of ground water generally it ends in bad things.
    Over 30 years in the pool business
    We build vinyl, fiberglass, stainless steel pools
    Certified in Hydraulics

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    Re: So this just happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by uxbridgechris View Post
    I have been researching FB pools for 2 years in anticipation of my 2018 install.
    I have read every story of pool failure there is. Sand, will flow when saturated. It's a poor choice of backfill material. Also, the pool deck is so important as part of the total system. The pool deck should be concrete and in case the rim of the pool shell. There are many other things but those come to mind when I look at your picture.

    I feel bad for you. 45 years is pretty amazing when you think about it. I was born in 73 and I am falling apart too.
    All really good points in our researching our replacement! Thank you!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by swimcmp View Post
    The biggest thing with any pool is controlling ground water. If there is no provision to get rid of ground water generally it ends in bad things.
    So true. We are researching a pump just for the yard as well to try to prevent more ground movement from water. Thanks!
    20,000 gallons, in ground, fiberglass, sand filter

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