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Thread: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

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    Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Hello all- First let me say how valuable this forum is. There is an incredible amount of unbiased information. I would like thoughts and feedback on the our plan and design before we finalize a contract. We live on a ridge that has mountain views so our goal is to create a place we can enjoy with friends and family. We want to avoid blocking the views with any structures and this is why the Ramada (Veranda) is to the right and our spa is installed in the pool. (pictures below)

    A few things have changed in the attached pictures. First, on the house and ridge sides of the pool we have decided to have a 3ft wide travertine cap around outside perimeter. For contrast, artificial grass would continue from the edge of the travertine to the fencing. Because we already have artificial grass on the house side of the pool we felt it would tie everything together. Additionally, the 20'x20' Ramada will have a pitched tile room with a finished ceiling.

    Currently the pool measures 30'x20', there is 10ft on each side of the spa, steps are on the ramada (right) side and the left side will have a Tanning Bench 12” deep and with umbrella hole and wide enough for a lounge chair, The distance from the back back side of the spa to ridge side of the pool is 12ft, depth of pool is 4ft on right side and 5.5ft on the fire pit side, two lights in the pool and two skimmers, travertine decking will be under the ramada and at the fire-pit. Each seat in the spa will have two jets for the back while two of the seats facing the mountain (owner seats) will also have jets for the legs. We will have 2" PVC and because of our strong Arizona sun... considering the thought of painting the exposed PVC. Sand filter with in floor cleaning system.

    The ramada will have a six foot wall along the far right side that will block wind and provide privacy. The center portion of the wall will go to the height of the ramada so we can raise the height of the TV. This will have a painted stucco finish to match home, 8 can lights and a ceiling fan hookup. Currently, we have an 8ft kitchen/bar top in the plans. However, we are considering not having this installed to save some money. These days you can go to Costco and buy some very nice grills 6-7ft long.

    I want to minimize the maintenance and upkeep wherever possible. So automation is very important.

    http://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en/...ump-sp32950vsp
    http://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en/...ump-sp32900vsp
    http://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en/...ow-nox-h400fdn
    http://www.1paramount.com/in-floor-s...leaning-sytem/



    Can we have an SWG on a non-salt water pool? Suggestions on locations of interior pool lights? Do I really need a in floor cleaning system? Is the Paramont in floor system good? What are your thoughts on the Hayward equipment being suggested by the PB? We want a super blue color in the pool and as a personal choice decided on Bead Crete. But noticed it is double the price of pebble sheen. Any fencing suggestions or is that all very straight forward. Any suggestions on water features that can possibly provide white noise or be activated as a visual bonus when sitting at the fire-pit or under the ramada?

    Bottom line, sometimes you don't know... what you don't know. We would like to add those small finishing touches that make the project beautiful. Trying to avoid the woulda-coulda-shoulda after the fact? Thank you in advance.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    az,

    Welcome to TFP... a great place to find the answers to all your new pool build questions...

    I noticed that you said "automation is important" yet no automation system was listed??

    I am not a fan of in-floor cleaning systems, but some of our members love theirs. All water powered cleaners require your pump(s) to be run at pretty high RPMs to make the systems work. I view it as using an old black rotary dial telephone when you have access to a cell phone.... I suggest you read this thread and see how much better Robots are... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...GNUS1pItB66-7m

    I do believe that in-Floor cleaning systems do an excellent good job of transferring money from your pocket into your pool builder's pocket...

    I am a highly biased Pentair kind of guy, but have to admit that there is very little difference between the three major brands.. Hayward, Pentair and Jandy. Each has their own minor pros and cons...

    Everyone comes here looking for advice on what color their tile or plaster should be... But, the most important decision when building a new pool is how you plan to chlorinate it... I do not understand your question.. "Can we have an SWG on a non-salt water pool?"... The answer is no... a Saltwater Chlorine Generator (SWCG) converts the salt in the pool water into chlorine.. So a SWCG will not work in a non-Saltwater pool. I am not sure why you do not want a saltwater pool, but in my mind it is the only type of pool to have. It is the easiest to maintain and the best water to swim in. If I build another 100 pools, they would all be saltwater pools..

    I really like your pool lay out..

    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Thanks Jim-- I'm looking for feedback on Hayward automation. Given that I seem to be going the direction of Hayward equipment. I would like to control as much as possible via phone/tablet or remotely.

    We had an in-floor system on another house where the pool was already installed. I hated it but figured the system was out dated. I do like the idea of saving on that expense and investing in something that I can repair or replace when it fails. I look forward to hearing other opinions on this topic. I will read that thread!

    As for the SWCG...I barely know what I'm talking about on this stuff. I kept reading all of these positive reviews on SWCG systems. So it made me wonder what the best method for chlorinating a pool would be. Tank you for clearing that up! I do like hearing that a saltwater system is the easiest to maintain. I'm off to research saltwater pools! Are saltwater pools more or less expensive to build?

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Oh I am SO in for this one!!! I can't wait to see the view with you holding a drink in your hand!!!

    A pool is a pool-salt water, chlorine. It is all the same. The only difference is..........do you pay for the chlorine over time as you haul jugs of it to your equipment or do you pay for it up front in the form of a SWG...........pssssssssst the correct answer is pay up front and make you life Trouble Free (see what did there hehe)

    Here is a link for you:

    Pool School - Salt Water Chlorine Generators

    I am off to search for different white noise makers to make you pool pretty!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    az,

    Technically, a saltwater pool would cost a few hundred dollars more than a non-saltwater pool, because you have to buy the cell upfront.. As Kim points out, the price is about the same in the long run.

    Whatever you do, the rule here is that for any automation to work well, the three major components need to be able to communicate with one another. The Automation system, and any VS pump and any SWCG, all need to be the same brand. All Hayward, or all Pentair, or all Jandy. Does not matter which brand of filter or heater you use.

    Just for fun, you should ask your pool builder why he uses Hayward products and what make them better.. it would be interesting to hear what he has to say about his choice..

    Thanks and keep asking questions...

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Thanks Kim-- How crazy, I told our PB that we wanted loooooooow maintenance. Ahhh All good, I'm so glad I'm getting this information. "Pool School" keeps is simple and I really do want to switch over to saltwater. Wow...flip the script! Now I'm going to ask (please and thank you) everyone on suggestions and recommendations for saltwater systems. I don't care if it's Pentair or Hayward. It would be nice if I had model #'s so I can go back to the PB prepared with what exactly it is I want installed. As long as they support scale-able automation. I would think that most systems these can receive software updates. My wife loves the thought of a pretty pool. We have large windows on the back of the house that face the pool. It would be nice to swipe the phone to activate some lights and/or water features instantly.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    AZ,

    Please keep in mind the your automation system will, more or less, dictate the type of SWCG you should buy... the cell just needs to be al least 2 x the volume of your pool..

    Here is my standard blurb about automation.... Specifically Pentair, but they are all about the same..

    It is easy for me to spend your money.. but don't let me talk you into anything. Many people have pools without automation and they work just fine. I do, however, think it is important to know the advantages and the disadvantages of having an automation system.

    1. Automation will help you with pool maintenance, but it will not replace the need for you to test your water, understand what you are looking at, and then making sure your water is balanced. (Another reason you need the accuracy of the TF100 test kit.)

    2. The main downside to automation is cost. So before going too far down this path, you might ask your PB what it's going to cost. That said, the best time to install automation is when the pool is being built, because all the connections to the system can be made without having to figure out how you are to get power across 50' of new deck. Also, the additional cost, when compared to the cost of the pool, will be miniscule.

    3. Automation systems work best when the same brand is used because then the pieces can "talk" to together. So, in your case I would recommend the EasyTouch 4 (or 8) that has a built in power supply for the SWG and generally comes with the SWG and two valves. ScreenLogic2 is an absolute requirement if you want to be able to control things from your PC or Phone.

    Here is a list of what I think the advantages are:

    1. Appearance. Instead of having a bunch of different boxes hanging on your wall you have one, professional looking enclosure.

    2. Circuit Breaker Panel. The bottom half of the enclosure is a circuit-breaker panel where the breakers for your pool equipment (Pumps, Heater, etc.) are located. This panel is also an excellent place to add surge protector, which is an absolute must if you have the Intelliflo pump. Even if you do not get the automation, make sure your PB includes a surge protector for the pump.

    3. SWG Control. Without automation, your SWG will have to have a timer, synced to the pump timer so that it does not run when the pump is off. This function is built into the EasyTouch.

    4. Spa mode and SWG output. Normally all the water flows through the SWG, so when in the Spa mode, the EasyTouch reduces the amount of chlorine the SWG produces, so that the Spa users are not subjected to high levels of chlorine.

    5. Pool Lighting. The EasyTouch allows you to control your pool lighting from your PC and/or from a schedule. This is another reason to add the EasyTouch now. Once your pool light is wired to switches inside your house, it might be very difficult to get the wiring to any automation system.

    6. Control of Spill-over and bubblers. Right now I'm sure you are thinking I want that spillover running 24-hours a day because it is so beautiful.. Well, after a few weeks of having your pH go through the roof, you'll appreciate the ability to only turn it on, when you want it on. The same with the bubblers. With the Easytouch, you can program them to run on a schedule for a few minutes a day to keep the everything properly chlorinated or when you want to "show off" to your guests..

    7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

    8. Built in Valve controls. The EasyTouch has the ability to control 4 valves. Two work for switching between the Pool and Spa modes, while two others can be programmed to do whatever you might want, like bubbler control. I would note that a lot of bubblers are controlled by manual valves that cannot be automated. You need to be sure to tell your PB that you want Jandy style valves for your bubbler control.

    9. Heater Control. The EasyTouch can control your heater.. So, you can be inside and tell your PC what temperature you want the Spa to be and it will tell you when it is ready.

    10. ScreenLogic. ScreenLogic allows you to program the EasyTouch with various schedules. It lets you see most all of the inputs and output to the EasyTouch and lets you decide what you want on/off and in the case of your SWG, lets you adjust the % of output on the fly.

    11. Pool pump speed... The EasyTouch can be programmed to adjust your pumps speed. So when running just the pool, it can run slow, but when running your waterfall, it will automatically increase the speed to make your waterfall or other water features look exactly how you want them to look.


    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    This is me at the moment! Copy/Paste...Copy/Paste... I feel like I hit the lottery with all of this education. I understand the benefits and definitely plan on investing in automation upfront. Plus we like bells and whistles. I want to build a 2018 pool...not a 2010. I put the TF100 test kit in my Amazon Wish List. This way I can make that purchase when I'm ready. The EasyTouch 4 came in at $1,174 on a quote from one of the PBs we contacted. Along with a $1,000 Pentair UV System Bioshield 522637.

    What about the Pros/Cons for Bead Crete vs. Pebble Sheen?

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    az,

    Wow!! Where in Arizona do you live, that does not get free sunshine??? Your "Along with a $1,000 Pentair UV System Bioshield 522637" is all Magic and no Rabbit.. Your pool will get all the UV it can stand from the sun, there is no need for any more...

    I am super surprised that your pool builder can provide you with an EasyTouch for $1,200 bucks.. Here is the internet price... Pentair Easy Touch Control System 520543 | Pentair 520543

    His price does not include the ET with built-in SWCG power supply nor the SWCG, nor the two valves needed to control you spa/pool... Or he is trying to sell you one of the cheap 'lite' versions that you do not want.. Keep in mind that if you go with the EasyTouch, you will have to also use the 3 HP IntelliFlo pump..

    I like Pentair, but Hayward and Jandy both sell similar units...

    Keep on copying and pasting..

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Jim-- So if I understood you correctly...I do not need the UV System Bioshiled 522637, because I get plenty of sunshine (UV) in Tucson. GOOD TO NO! I have attached copy of the quote sso you can see what I see. This is one of three quotes I have. Let me know your thoughts and thanks again. I already know I went with this company I would remove the in-floor cleaning system and switch to a salt water pool.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    az,

    Just so that we are both on the same page... I am a highly biased Pentair guy, but don't let me talk you into changing pool builders, just because they use Pentair products. You should pick the pool builder you like best and then decide what brand equipment you want... The best pool builder for you may not use Pentair products for some reason..

    Most pool builders charge roughly twice the Internet price for equipment. So if you can buy it on Amazon for $1,000, the pool builder is normally going to charge you $1,000 or more.

    Keep on asking questions...

    Thanks,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Jim-- No worries I understand that you are a Pentair guy. You like what you like. I'm still collecting data and reading reviews online on much of the equipment that you mentioned below.
    EasyTouch 4 (or 8) - ScreenLogic2 - 4 control valves - surge protector for the pump - SWCG cell at least 2 x the volume of your pool -

    What about thoughts on pumps and heaters? Thanks again!

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    az,

    No matter which automation system you get, I would recommend that you get the one with the 8 relays... Relays are used to control external equipment that runs off of AC power.. You will be surprised at the number of things you will want to control from your automation system that you did not think about before installing it.. My system is a ET-4 and if I had to do it again, it would be an ET-8...

    Your Salt cell requires a relay (this is a required safety feature that prevents the cell from running when the pump is off)

    Each pool light that you want to independently control requires a relay.

    A light over your equipment pad requires a relay.

    Spa blower motor requires a relay..

    Spa jet pump (if you have one) requires a relay..

    Landscape lighting (if connected to the ET) requires a relay..

    The lights in my pool shed, requires a relay..

    etc, etc...


    The Pentair 3 HP Variable Speed IntelliFlo pump is the 'Gold Standard' when it comes to pool pumps... It was designed to be controlled by the EasyTouch. The pump is controlled by a data cable so you program the ET to run the pump at whatever speed is needed for the situation.. For example... the pump can be running at a low speed to circulate the water and generate chlorine.. and you decide to turn on a waterfall... a valve turns the waterfall on, and then the pump will increase in speed so that the water fall will look exactly like you want..

    One great thing about all VS pumps is that they are extremely quiet at low speeds and the cost to run is next to nothing. For example.. I can run my IntelliFlo, at 1200 rpm, 24/7 for less than $20 bucks a month...

    I do not have a heater, but if I did, based upon the recommendations from this site, it would be a RayPak... Heaters do not need to be the same brand as the automation system.

    I believe a Surge protector is good insurance for any automation system... I have one in mine...

    Thanks,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Holy cow! $5k for in floor system would buy probably 5 or 6 *good* robots (pssst- you only need one, lol).

    Personally I'd skip that in floor system and get a really good robot from Maytronics.

    Maddie
    Maddie :) 12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
    Skippy's Pool Cooler --> Skippy's New Fountain Our Build --> Our Pool Solved Our Sloping Yard

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    All-- Does anyone have any lessons learned or suggestions for building a Ramada Veranda). We are trying to include those things that we will regret not thinking of sooner. Technology, lighting, types of fans, or finishes All input is appreciated.

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    Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Electrical outlets and perhaps roll down sunshades are two thoughts from me.
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, SWCG, automation) View Our Build
    Coverstar automatic pool cover | StoneMakers concrete retaining wall and decking | Merlin SmartMesh winter safety cover
    Spring 2013 Build | Dolphin Active 20 robot cleaner | Support TFP!

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    az,

    Nothing to do with a Veranda, but if you have any 'old' people that will be using your pool, you might think about a hand rail.. I did not and wish I had..

    It is a lot easier, and cleaner, to have the mounting holes/adapters as part of the decking rather than trying to add them after the decking is down.

    Here it the ugly result of not doing it ahead of time....



    Thanks,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Hi Jim- In order to heat the spa remotely, do you place it on it's own relay? I'm in the process of adding up all of the items I would place on relays.


    1. Salt cell
    2. Interior pool light
    3. Spa light
    4. Landscape lights
    5. Ramada ceiling lights
    6. Spa jet pump
    7. Spar heater
    8. _

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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    bmoreswim- Electrical outlets for sure!n In fact, I plan to place an outlet in shared ceiling corner so I can plug in 2 remote roll down sunshades from a single outlet. Thanks for the thoughts!

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Tucson- Looking for feedback before we finalize plans

    Quote Originally Posted by AZPool_ View Post
    Hi Jim- In order to heat the spa remotely, do you place it on it's own relay? I'm in the process of adding up all of the items I would place on relays.


    1. Salt cell
    2. Interior pool light
    3. Spa light
    4. Landscape lights
    5. Ramada ceiling lights
    6. Spa jet pump
    7. Spa heater... Does not use one of the 8 'high voltage' relays... it might use a small relay on the main board that is dedicated to the heater and not part of the 8 relays...
    8. _ Equipment Pad lights... just depends on where your pad is located.....
    az,

    See notes above,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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