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Thread: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

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    Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    All, I am about to buy a Pump, Filter, Heat Pump, and Salt Generator. I think I am set on the last three. My struggle is on the first one... the Pump. Relevant Info..

    1) ~15,000 gallon pool
    2) 1.5 inch piping
    3) Main Drain blocked, likely filled with concrete due to cracks
    4) 7 floor vents
    5) Current pump is Jacuzzi .75 HP, 13.4 Amp, 3450 RPM, 1.27 SF. Shaped like like a High Pressure Pentair Challenger model

    I wanted a Variable Speed (VS) assuming the magnetic motor would last longer, but from what I have been told/read is that I cannot use a VS pump with Floor Vents as the down cycles will not be enough to pop them up. I am fine with this.

    I think I am set on a 1 HP model. My questions are this...

    1) Does Full Rated vs Up Rated vs Service Factor matter?
    2) Can a 1 HP motor handle a 150 sqft Filter?
    3) Should I consider a 1.5 HP, or is that too much?
    4) Will having only a Skimmer Line affect my Pressure/Flow needs?
    5) Does the Heat Pump and Salt Generator affect my pump needs?
    6) Pentair vs. Hayward?
    7) Is the Pentair "Sta-Right" a more durable model?

    Regarding the other components, here are my thoughts, if I am way off base, please say something...

    Filter - Going with Jacuzzi because of the easy to use Handles and happy with current Jacuzzi Filter. Filter seems like the most generic component.
    Heat Pump - Going with Jacuzzi 127 BTU. I am told it is an AquaCal rebranded for LesliePools to keep ManfLine running in Summer. Seems like good value for that BTU level.
    Salt Generator - Deciding between Hayward/Jacuzzi. Pool guy says Hayward control screen is better as it tells you exact reading vs Jacuzzi Green/Red lights. But Jacuzzi has a "Boost" mode to shock/superCL your pool, which seems like a convenient feature for a Salt-CL system.

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    Mod Squad mknauss's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Welcome to the forum!

    Not sure what you mean by
    I wanted a Variable Speed (VS) assuming the magnetic motor would last longer, but from what I have been told/read is that I cannot use a VS pump with Floor Vents as the down cycles will not be enough to pop them up. I am fine with this.
    A VS pump is a Variable HP pump. So it can do whatever a single speed pump can do.

    If you wish to have automation you need your pump, SWCG, and automation to be from the same manufacturer.

    You should size your SWCG to be at least 2X your pool volume. So you should get a 40K gallon rated SWCG.

    I have never used the "Boost" mode on my SWCG. I just add bleach if I need a one time FC boost. If you do your own testing and follow TFPC you will never need "Boost".

    Can you put what state, province, or country 'Boynton Beach' is in?

    Take care.
    6000 Gallon IG Fiberglass with integrated Spa;Pentair CCP240 Cartridge Filter with Pentair Intelliflo VS Pump and HTR250 heater. IC40 SWG. EasyTouch 4. Dolphin Active20 Robot "Roadrunner", TF 100 Test Kit w/SpeedStir!
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    Marty

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Hi there...

    Re: VS, yes, but I think the point was that there is little point in paying up for a VS if you are only going to use it at a speed high enough to "pop up" the floor vents. They said they had a customer and tried 3 different VS pumps and none popped the vents up on the "down cycle" which greatly restricted the flow.

    Re: SWCG, I plan on going 40k. I guess if the SWCG does it's job, you don't really need the Boost

    Another question about SWCG, is it true that some systems don't require salt, that it gets enough from the regular water?

    Also, the pump models I am looking at are below. Having a bit of analysis paralysis. Reading the descriptions of these I really don't see much difference, but there has to be some differences in quality.

    Hayward SP2607X10 1HP SS 399
    Hayward SP2307X10 Max-Flo 1HP SS 318
    Hayward SP3007X10AZ2 (SuperPool) 576
    Hayward SP3207X10 TriStar 566
    Pentair 340038 SuperFlo 1HP 350
    Sta-Rite PHK2RA6E-102L SuperMax 1HP 385
    Pentair 11517 WhisperFlo 1HP 565
    Pentair 011513 WhisperFlo 1HP (eff) 498
    Pentair P6RA6E-205L Sta-Rite Max-E-Pro 1HP 469
    Pentair 343233 Challenger .75 (High Pressure) 525
    Pentair 011772 WhisperFlo Uprated 1HP,1.24 542
    Pentair 348023 SuperFlo Eff,1HP,1.25 422
    Pentair 346204 Challenger Std,1HP,1.25 487
    Pentair WFE-24 WhisperFlo 1HP,1.25 563
    Pentair 342235 Challenger Eff,1 HP,1.65 679
    Pentair 343233 Challenger 1HP,1.25 552
    Pentair 348022 SuperFlo Eff,.75HP,1.67 407
    Pentair 011568 WhisperFlo 3Phase, 1HP,1.65 636

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    Mod Squad mknauss's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    You do know that without a main drain your in floor cleaner 'pop ups' do not clean the pool, correct?

    All SWCG's need +/-3200 ppm of salt in the water to operate.

    I have no idea on single speed pumps.

    Good luck.
    6000 Gallon IG Fiberglass with integrated Spa;Pentair CCP240 Cartridge Filter with Pentair Intelliflo VS Pump and HTR250 heater. IC40 SWG. EasyTouch 4. Dolphin Active20 Robot "Roadrunner", TF 100 Test Kit w/SpeedStir!
    CLICK HERE to Become a TroubleFreePool.com Supporter!! Pool Math App
    Marty

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    mhc,

    I love my Saltwater pool, but if they have a downside, it is that you have to run your pump a relatively long time to generate the chlorine you need. Having a Saltwater pool without a VS pump just does not make sense to me...

    I suspect there are a lot of people here that would like to respond, but like me, are a little confused by some of your terms...

    Do you have an in-floor cleaning system? Does it work now?

    What are floor vents?? Is this part of the cleaning system, or do they just allow return water into the bottom of your pool?

    Do you have pop up heads for cleaning and different pop up heads for returns or are they all the same??

    What is a "down cycle"???

    Do you also have normal wall returns with eyeballs?

    Your statement "...They said they had a customer and tried 3 different VS pumps and none popped the vents up on the "down cycle" which greatly restricted the flow..." just makes not sense to me.. You say your current pump is a 3/4 HP pump and it seems to work.. If so you would think that almost any VS pump would work..

    Is your current pump, some special 'high pressure' model?

    So if you can explain the current operation of your pool, you might get some additional answers..

    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Quote Originally Posted by mhcpools View Post
    I think I am set on a 1 HP model. My questions are this...

    1) Does Full Rated vs Up Rated vs Service Factor matter?
    2) Can a 1 HP motor handle a 150 sqft Filter?
    3) Should I consider a 1.5 HP, or is that too much?
    4) Will having only a Skimmer Line affect my Pressure/Flow needs?
    5) Does the Heat Pump and Salt Generator affect my pump needs?
    6) Pentair vs. Hayward?
    7) Is the Pentair "Sta-Right" a more durable model?
    1) Yes in that the same label HP is a different Total HP. A 1 HP full rated pump is larger than a 1 HP up rated pump. The true or total HP (THP) is the label HP * Service Factor. However, in most cases, you really should not size a pump buy the label HP. What matters is the head curve. They are not always correlated.

    2) What do you mean handle? Any pump can handle any filter. However, a pump can be too large for a particular filter. But 150 sq-ft should be able to handle almost any pump.

    3) Why would you want to or think you would need to go larger? How does the current pump perform?

    4) Having a single suction line increases suction head so the pump is more likely to leak air under very high flow rates. But in most cases, you should not need extremely high flow rates except maybe for the in-floor cleaners.

    5) No but it may affect the minimum flow rates when using lower pump speeds.

    6) I don't see a major difference except for a few cases (EcoStar is showing more issues). It is more about the feature set of each pump when looking at VS pumps.

    7) No
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Quote Originally Posted by mknauss View Post
    You do know that without a main drain your in floor cleaner 'pop ups' do not clean the pool, correct?

    All SWCG's need +/-3200 ppm of salt in the water to operate.

    I have no idea on single speed pumps.

    Good luck.
    McKnauss, yes, I understand the pop ups are not cleaning anything. My understand is the pops ups serve two purposes... circulation and to move debris towards the main drain. Since the main drain does not work, the pool is cleaned via a crawler that does a very nice job. I don't have "eye" outlets on the side, only on the bottom, so the bottom pop ups are my only form of circulation.

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    "Do you have an in-floor cleaning system? Does it work now?
    What are floor vents?? Is this part of the cleaning system, or do they just allow return water into the bottom of your pool?"

    MHC: The "floor vents" are circular pop-ups that are part of a cleaning system designed to push debris towards the main drain. Since my main drain has been filled with concrete, the pop ups only support water circulation. I have not side jets.

    "
    Do you have pop up heads for cleaning and different pop up heads for returns or are they all the same??"

    MHC: They are all the same.

    "
    What is a "down cycle"???"

    MHC: I was referring to how a variable speeds operate at both high RPM and low RPM. I was calling the low RPM period the "down cycle". The pool guys I spoke to said that the floor vents require a level of pressure that the VS will not provide during a low RPM phase, so there is no point in running a VS. I am better off running a lower HP Single Speed longer for a similar price vs. water turnover.

    "
    Do you also have normal wall returns with eyeballs?"

    MHC: No

    "...They said they had a customer and tried 3 different VS pumps and none popped the vents up on the "down cycle" which greatly restricted the flow..." just makes not sense to me.. You say your current pump is a 3/4 HP pump and it seems to work.. If so you would think that almost any VS pump would work."

    MHC: The pool guy said the VS will not provide enough pressure during the low RPM phase to lift the floor vents which means I will not be getting any return and it would just waste energy. He said I'd be better off running the low HP motor longer. I was/am still considering the VS because I feel like the magnetic motor will last longer. The question is whether it will last 2x as long because it cost 2x as much.

    "
    Is your current pump, some special 'high pressure' model?"

    MHC: I am not sure. It is an old Jacuzzi, but looks EXACTLY like a Pentair Challenger which is branded as a "High Pressure" model designed specifically for Floor systems... http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/Pentair-346206-Challenger-High-Pressure-Standard-Efficiency-Up-Rated-1-12HP-Pool-Pump-115V230V/346206.htm

    "Challenger High Pressure Pumps are designed specifically for applications requiring higher pressure operation to feed multiple needs beyond pool water circulation, such as spa jets, in-floor cleaning systems, and decorative water features like waterfalls and fountains. Plus, they provide all that power while remaining highly efficient and delivering years of unattended performance. Pump components are custom molded thermoplastic for superior strength and durability."



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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Mark, thanks for answering the questions!!!

    2) What do you mean handle? Any pump can handle any filter. However, a pump can be too large for a particular filter. But 150 sq-ft should be able to handle almost any pump.

    MHC: I mean, what size filter should I use if I get a 1HP motor?

    3) Why would you want to or think you would need to go larger? How does the current pump perform?

    MHC: The current .75 HP pump is adequate, other than motor struggling as it is 15-20 years old (they don't make them like they used to!), but I am adding a Heat Pump and SWCG so I want at least another .25 HP.

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    I had a 1/2 hp two speed pump with a swcg, heater and 400 sqft filter and ran the pump on low speed most of the time. I now have a vs and run it on on even lower speed. So you really dont need a big pump.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Mod Squad mknauss's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Can you remove the 'pop ups' so they become floor returns? That would eliminate the pressure needed to pop them up.
    6000 Gallon IG Fiberglass with integrated Spa;Pentair CCP240 Cartridge Filter with Pentair Intelliflo VS Pump and HTR250 heater. IC40 SWG. EasyTouch 4. Dolphin Active20 Robot "Roadrunner", TF 100 Test Kit w/SpeedStir!
    CLICK HERE to Become a TroubleFreePool.com Supporter!! Pool Math App
    Marty

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Quote Originally Posted by mknauss View Post
    Can you remove the 'pop ups' so they become floor returns? That would eliminate the pressure needed to pop them up.
    Not a bad idea. There are 7 holes and one of them has been removed. I wonder if that is why the previous owner did that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    I had a 1/2 hp two speed pump with a swcg, heater and 400 sqft filter and ran the pump on low speed most of the time. I now have a vs and run it on on even lower speed. So you really dont need a big pump.
    Good to know. I am definitely not going huge. Either a 1 or 1.5 (max). Leaning towards the 1 HP. Now the question is whether I go High Pressure (Challenger) or Standard. Will probably see what the pool guy says.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    To me a 1 HP Challenger is huge just for circulation. You really don't need that much. Most places following APSP-15 will no longer allow people to purchase a single speed 1 THP or greater:

    http://www.consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/Poo...%20Florida.pdf


    Also, you can just replace the motor of your current pump so you don't need to change any of the plumbing.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    mhc,

    Thanks for answering all my questions... I now understand your issue.

    Since you have no sidewall returns, I like the idea of removing the pop ups to allow for low speed circulation.. The only problem would be how would that make your pool look and would the open holes in the floor be a problem???

    Thanks,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    [QUOTE=mknauss;1378224]You do know that without a main drain your in floor cleaner 'pop ups' do not clean the pool, correct?

    I will echo this statement. I have A&A Mfg infloor cleaning heads with a Pentain VS pump, in my pool, I love 'em. But if your main drain is non-functional, it's pointless to have them. They won't do anything.
    mid 2014 12 X 30 12k gallons IG Plaster\Fl Gem Finish. StaRite\Pentair DE filter. StaRite\Pentair IntelliPro VS Pump. Pentair UltraTemp Heat Pump Unit. Intellichlor IC40 salt system (not up and running yet)
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    PoolGate's Avatar
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    Re: Pool Pump for "Broken" pool

    Check with your utility for variable speed pump rebates. They can be very substantial (~$400). What you find there will drive what model you end up getting.
    29k Gallon Free Form Gunite Pool, 3 floor returns, 2 wall returns, 1 vacuum pressure port, 2 skimmers, Main drain, Jandy 2.7HP VSP, Jandy JXI400N Gas Heater, Jandy CV340 Cartridge Filter, FusionSoft 1400 SWG, 2 Watercolors LED, iAqualink with PDA, Sheer Waterfall, Rock Waterfall, 9' Deep End w/Diving Board, SunDeck, Polaris 9650iQ, TF-100 - Pool Build - 2017 - Google Photos

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