Trichlor tabs

[dalehileman]

"And I assume you already are aware of the problems with continued Trichlor use in terms of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) buildup."

I am puzzled about this. Wouldn't incresased CYA be evidenced by a lower Ph? Judging by my regular Cl-Ph measurement, any buildup of CYA from the trichlor has little or no effect on the Ph

"In addition to the alternatives that waterbear suggested, there are also BioGuard Smart Sticks that are designed to be used in the skimmer."

Thank you for that suggestion an I surely will consider it. Our main problem in this regard is that we get our trichlor tabs from Costco at a reasonable price, and living as we do on a fixed income we have to consider long-term cost

"I called the vendor just before the beginning of the third season (this season) and they replaced my damaged cover at no charge (I just had to pay shipping.) I had sent them a sample too and they said nothing about high chlorine level."

Thank you for that report. Perhaps my mistake was in a mail-order purchase instead of using a local vendor. Yet the buildup of trichlor residue did strongly suggest that it was responsible for this damage to the cover (principally at the shallow end where the trichlor was situated)

 

[Water_man]

I am puzzled about this. Wouldn't incresased CYA be evidenced by a lower Ph?

No, unless you add an enormous amount of CYA, and yet you're limited by its solubility. CYA is a weak acid, with pKa values of 7, 11 and 14 for its three photonic dissociations. Even its strongest dissociation is 10 to the power of 11 a weaker acid than hydrochloric acid, aka muriatic acid. This is why even hundreds of ppm CYA, which will require tens of ppm FC to adequately sanitize your pool, will have a negligible effect on your pool's pH.

 

[Guest]

"And I assume you already are aware of the problems with continued Trichlor use in terms of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) buildup."

I am puzzled about this. Wouldn't incresased CYA be evidenced by a lower Ph? Judging by my regular Cl-Ph measurement, any buildup of CYA from the trichlor has little or no effect on the Ph
If your TA is high you will not see any effect from the miniscule drop in pH caused by CYA. You will see more of an effect from the low pH of trichlor. If your TA is low you are more likely to see the pH bounce. Where is your TA?

Thank you for that suggestion an I surely will consider it. Our main problem in this regard is that we get our trichlor tabs from Costco at a reasonable price, and living as we do on a fixed income we have to consider long-term cost
The cost of using liquid chlorine or bleach and the associated chemicals needed to maintain the pool is less than using trichlor and the associated chemicals needed. However, you do lose the conveniece factor of not having to add chlorine on a daily basis. Also, investing in a good test kit that will tell you exactly what your pool needs, when it needs it, and how much it needs will save a LOT of money in the long run

 

[dalehileman]

"Where is your TA?"

Usu hovering around 7.6

"Also, investing in a good test kit that will tell you exactly what your pool needs, when it needs it, and how much it needs will save a LOT of money in the long run"

For about 12 years I had been checking Cl and Ph thinking that was all I needed. Now however I'm advised I should also check CYA, which I shall surely look into. Are there any other really critical factors I should be monitoring

 

[MikeInTN]

It depends on your pool. FC/CC, pH, TA, CYA, and CH are good to know about for all pools. CH is really only necessary in a plaster pool so the water doesn't leach calcium out of the plaster, but good to know in a vinyl lined pool so you can prevent any scaling.

Here's how I usually do my testing: When I open the pool, I do a complete set of tests (FC/CC, pH, TA, CYA, CH). I adjust all as necessary. After I have them at the appropriate levels, then I check FC/CC and pH every day or every other day (I have a SWCG, so I don't have to add chlorine daily); I'll usually check TA and CYA once or twice during the season, unless something happens that I know will cause them to fluctuate i.e. lots of water lost to torrential rains, etc. If my pH starts rising or dropping, I'll also check and adjust my TA as necessary to prevent that. I never check my CH after my initial measurement because I don't add anything to increment my CH.

 

[anonapersona]

You would have found this in Pool School;

http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/basic_pool_care_schedule

I test FC every 3rd day, pH every 6th day, CH and TA and CYA every month since I have to add rather a lot of water and those do tend to change over time. I add chlorine every 3rd day, acid maybe every 12th or so, and I have had to increase CYA and CH once each in the 7 months I've ownded the house.

 

[dalehileman]

"I test FC every 3rd day, pH every 6th day, CH and TA and CYA every month....."

Thank you for that insight, which, see, saves me from poring through the Pool School (pun intended) and giving me just a little more free time to pull weeds and then heat my lunch

It is interesting to note in this connection that once having achieved a satisfactory reading also find the Ph very slow to change, buttressing my recent decision to quit checking it so often. See how much time you have saved me already today

 

[dmanb2b]

"I test FC every 3rd day, pH every 6th day, CH and TA and CYA every month....."

Thank you for that insight, which, see, saves me from poring through the Pool School (pun intended) and giving me just a little more free time to pull weeds and then heat my lunch

Yes, but realize that by you not taking the time to "pour through" Pool School and asking questions about topics already covered there, you are taking time away from others to pull weeds and eat their lunch

 

[dalehileman]

"Yes, but realize that by you not taking the time to "pour through" Pool School and asking questions about topics already covered there, you are taking time away from others to pull weeds and eat their lunch "

Yes forgive me fellas, but youall seem to enjoy providing the quick advice I need and given your busy schedule you are cordially invited to just ignore my posts

Anyone else who hasn't lost patience with me might explain how TA differs from Ph as I had always thought Ph was a measure of alkalinity and yet my friendly local pool store had said nothing about the need for measuring TA

...and in a related matter if one were to dangle his trichlor tabs as suggested from some sort of float, how far from the surface would they have to be suspended to minimize damage to the solar cover and how far from the bottom to preclude pitting and erosion

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

"Where is your TA?"

Usu hovering around 7.6

This is your PH. Your TA is a separate test.

"Yes, but realize that by you not taking the time to "pour through" Pool School and asking questions about topics already covered there, you are taking time away from others to pull weeds and eat their lunch "

Yes forgive me fellas, but youall seem to enjoy providing the quick advice I need and given your busy schedule you are cordially invited to just ignore my posts

Anyone else who hasn't lost patience with me might explain how TA differs from Ph as I had always thought Ph was a measure of alkalinity and yet my friendly local pool store had said nothing about the need for measuring TA

From "ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry" - in Pool School:

There are five chemical levels that ever pool owner needs to keep track of:
FC - Free Chlorine - A sanitizer which keeps your pool water safe and free of germs. Chlorine must be constantly replenished.
pH - Acidity/Alkalinity - Needs to be kept in balance to prevent irritation and protect the pool equipment.
TA - Total Alkalinity - Appropriate levels help keep the pH in balance. High levels can cause pH to rise.
CH - Calcium Hardness - Appropriate levels help prevent plaster damage. High levels can cause calcium scaling.
CYA - Cyanuric Acid - Protects chlorine from sunlight and determines the required FC level.

If you want to read the rest of the article, click on Pool School.

 

[Brad S]

TA is really the buffer capacity of the water. Or more simply, how resistant to a change in pH is the water. The pH in a swimming pool is usually buffered by a carbonate/bicarbonate system. This is supplied by simply adding sodium bicarbonate to the water (otherwise known as baking soda). pH is actually a measure of the concentration of the hydrogen ion (H⁺). The higher the H+ concentration, the lower the pH. The bicarb buffer keeps the H+ concentration fairly steady by either soaking up excess ions or releasing them. How high or low to keep the TA or buffer capacity of the water depends on several factors including what one uses to chlorinate the pool with. General rule is that for water that has a falling pH, increase the TA, and a rising pH needs the TA lowered a bit. Once you find the sweet spot for your pool, the pH can stay pretty stable.

Waterbear has a thread on here somewhere that goes into it a little deeper, but i think thats it in a nut shell.

 

[Guest]

Anyone else who hasn't lost patience with me might explain how TA differs from Ph as I had always thought Ph was a measure of alkalinity and yet my friendly local pool store had said nothing about the need for measuring TA

find a new pool store! (I've worked in the industry and pool stores are in business to sell you as many products as they can. They often do not like to sell good test kits because they want to do the testing and have you come in weekly for it in the hopes of selling you something each time.)


As far as TA, here you go:
ta-what-is-it-really-t4979.html

My quesrtion to you is this:
If you are not really interested n learning how to care for your pool why are you even in this forum? The bare minimum you could do is read pool school. Most of the articles are less than half a page and the longest are less than a page. It will only take a few minutes and might give you a much better understanding of what we are all about and what pool care is all about. If you don't even want to do that much you are just wasting your time and ours. It's not about ignoring your posts. It's about you doing your part. It's not a lot to ask and it's just common courtesy. From the beginning you seem to be looking for answers to support your mis informed views on pool care and have been resistant to actually leaning the correct information. I really don't understand why unless it is to try and disrupt this forum and take time from people that actually want to learn and are in need of our time.
Bottom line is that your pool store has not been telling you the truth and you won't even answer basic questions on where you are located or the equipment on your pool.
You might want to read this:
pool-school/read_before_you_post
It is what we request of people BEFORE they post in the forum and you have not even taken the 5 minutes needed to do this simple courtesy.

 

[dalehileman]

"From "ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry" - in Pool School:

There are five chemical levels.......
pH - Acidity/Alkalinity - Needs to be kept in balance to prevent irritation and protect the pool equipment........
TA - Total Alkalinity - Appropriate levels help keep the pH in balance. High levels can cause pH to rise........."

Thank you kindly for summarizing these abbreviations. Can I now infer that if your Ph remains stable there's no need to also track your TA, thereby saving the poor wretch (me) that much more time and energy

 

[dmanb2b]

if your PH is stable (ie you do not find yourself adding PH+ or PH - on a daily basis, your TA is most likely just fine. If not, your TA needs tweaking.

High TA promotes PH rise
Low TA promotes PH declining

 

[Brad S]

Your pH can get out of control pretty fast if the TA starts to go south. I check my TA once a week, pH daily.

 

[Guest]

Thank you kindly for summarizing these abbreviations. Can I now infer that if your Ph remains stable there's no need to also track your TA, thereby saving the poor wretch (me) that much more time and energy

In a word, NO! They are related but totally different water parameters. You also need to be tracking your calcium hardness, particularly if you have a plaster or fiberglass pool! Just befcause your pH is stable does not mean you can ignore TA, PARTICULARLY WHEN USING TRICHLOR, WHERE TA IS A VERY IMPORTANT WATER PARAMATER, moreso than when using bleach and if you find your pH stable then the TA is OK. THIS IS NOT TRUE WITH TRICHLOR!
As far as chlorine goes, you need to be tracking both free chlorine AND combined chlorine, not just total chlorine, which, ONCE AGAIN, I am telling you your two way pH/chlorine tester is testing! You seem to be very selective on what information you take from here.

 

[Guest]

if your PH is stable (ie you do not find yourself adding PH+ or PH - on a daily basis, your TA is most likely just fine. If not, your TA needs tweaking.

High TA promotes PH rise
Low TA promotes PH declining

Not quite right info here. High TA will promote pH rise with unstabilized chlorine sources but this is not really as applicable with trichlor, dichlor, chlorine gas, bromine, or MPS which really require higher TA levels to keep pH stable since the trend with these products is pH drop from their acdic pH and not pH rise from outgassing of CO2.
Low TA promotes pH BOUNCE, not drop!

Bottom line, TA needs to be monitored and adjusted if needed.

 

[dalehileman]

"Your pH can get out of control pretty fast if the TA starts to go south. I check my TA once a week, pH daily."

Thank you once again Brad for your summaries saving me hours if not days Googling sites like this, reading through hundreds of forums and advisories

 

[dalehileman]

"You seem to be very selective on what information you take from here."

Sorry it's just that I'm overwhelmed

But again thanks for contributing

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

We were all noobs once, that's how most of us ended up here. It is very overwhelming, but if you read Pool School, and then read it again, eventually it all will click and start to make sense. Reading the various topics posted by others will also help you to absorb it better.