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Thread: please help - do I need a new liner?

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    please help - do I need a new liner?

    We have a pool in France - vinyl liner, nine years old. have just heard from the poolman that there are a few large brown stains on the base of the pool - algaecide did not shift them. first appeared after a thunderstorm. Does it sound like algae under the liner and if so is there a cure or do I have to buty a new liner? - hope not! please advise - many thanks - Gillian
    Off to France on sunday - would like to know what to try
    20k Leisure Pools 15' x 38' Moroccan fiberglass pool, plumbed with 2" lines all around, running a Pentair VS+SVRS pump and SD-70 sand filter, Compupool CPSC-36 SWG and a Watertech Blue Diamond robotic cleaner. Located in Central NJ.

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Post some pictures, let a trichlor tab sit on the spot for 10 min and see if it gets lighter. If it does get lighter it is organic. If it's not organic you can use vitamin c or pool stain treat in a stocking
    -Kevin
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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Can you please post a full set of results so we can advise better....

    How is the pool normally chlorinated (tablets, powder?)

    Do you have a method to test or do you rely on the pool service?

    Kind of sounds like organic staining to me, usually from not maintaining adequate chlorine levels.

    If you could post test results before you try the tips posted by X-pertpool. Thanks.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    Can you please post a full set of results so we can advise better....

    How is the pool normally chlorinated (tablets, powder?)

    Do you have a method to test or do you rely on the pool service?

    Kind of sounds like organic staining to me, usually from not maintaining adequate chlorine levels.

    If you could post test results before you try the tips posted by X-pertpool. Thanks.
    20k Leisure Pools 15' x 38' Moroccan fiberglass pool, plumbed with 2" lines all around, running a Pentair VS+SVRS pump and SD-70 sand filter, Compupool CPSC-36 SWG and a Watertech Blue Diamond robotic cleaner. Located in Central NJ.

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Thanks for your quick responses. The problem is we are in England and relying on our poolman - also we are not experts. The stains appeared after a thunderstorm and seemed to fade a bit and then came back. Algaecide did not work. They cannot be brushed off and are large, brown and wispy looking. We use chlor tablets - last chlor reading was 1.2 I believe.
    We go to France on Sunday and I really want to know what to do so we are not bullied into buying a new liner unless if it really necessary!
    What are the tests we should carry out?
    Should we shock the pool - and if so, how?
    If it is algae under the liner, can we do anything?
    Please write to me as though I am an idiot who knows nothing!
    Many thanks - Gillian
    20k Leisure Pools 15' x 38' Moroccan fiberglass pool, plumbed with 2" lines all around, running a Pentair VS+SVRS pump and SD-70 sand filter, Compupool CPSC-36 SWG and a Watertech Blue Diamond robotic cleaner. Located in Central NJ.

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Hi Oasthouses,
    The stain maybe unsightly but that does not mean a new liner. I am not surpised that algaecide did not shift it as the algaecide most commonly sold in France is pretty weak stuff.

    Chlorine is far better at removing stains. After a storm? could it be dirty water being washed under the liner and appearing as a stain? Or have the farmers been cutting the fields recently?

    It is going to be difficult untill you actually get there and can take a look, what have you got under the liner is is the usual felt backing, sometimes that gets growth on it but usually after the liner has been removed for some other reason and light and air have got in.

    What region of France are you in?

    What type of pool is it, salt water or direct chlorine, what type of filter do you have?

    The tests you need to carry out are:
    PH, Free chlorine, Combined chorine, Cyanuric acid, Total alkalinity, Calcium hardness and a good idea to check the phosphate level.
    The volume of water in your pool?

    Yes I would prepare to shock the pool so pick up some 9.6% Javel from a Brico 15 euros (ish) for 20 litres.

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Thank you!

    Our pool is in the SW - borders of Aveyron and Tarn-et-Garonne. There is a felt backing to the liner and the pool is 12mx6m. It is a direct chlor pool (at the moment, salt machine broke last year) -we have a sand filter.

    We have lots of chlor shock and were thinking of using that. Is that OK - and what sort of level should we aim for? - if it works, how long will it take for the stain to disappear (so we know whether it has worked or not).

    Any advice would be really helpdful

    Kind Regards

    Gillian
    20k Leisure Pools 15' x 38' Moroccan fiberglass pool, plumbed with 2" lines all around, running a Pentair VS+SVRS pump and SD-70 sand filter, Compupool CPSC-36 SWG and a Watertech Blue Diamond robotic cleaner. Located in Central NJ.

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Ok, before shocking or adding anything please test the water as we need to establish where you are now. Make sure you take the water sample from 300mm to 450mm below the surface.

    As ex-pert pool said it could well be worth putting some some chlorine directly on the stain after brushing.

    What method of chlorination are you using, multi action gallets?

    The level you need to take the shock to can only really be established once we have the test results. If you need more shock buy javel it's cheeper.

    What is the depth of your pool?

    Will you be on-line in France?

    Sorry for all the questions

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Pool is 1m at shallow end and 1.8m at deep end. Thanks for your advice, we`ll take a pool sample to a shop in Villefranche or Albi to test. What are we looking for? - how to we analyse results given to us?

    Yes we use multi-action chlor.

    Will be on line rarely in France - so all this advice is really useful.

    Thanks again

    Gillian
    20k Leisure Pools 15' x 38' Moroccan fiberglass pool, plumbed with 2" lines all around, running a Pentair VS+SVRS pump and SD-70 sand filter, Compupool CPSC-36 SWG and a Watertech Blue Diamond robotic cleaner. Located in Central NJ.

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    You should be looking for results of the test to fall into the normal water parameters.

    As you use multi action gallets, specifically we would be looking at a build up of cyanuric acid which the manufactures add to the chlorine. each tablet raises the level and then you reach a point at which the chlorine is almost de-activated. The normal way to cure this is a partial drain and re-fill with fresh water to get the cyanuric acid (CYA) level back down. The forums' way is to add very large amounts of chlorine and maintain this level, whilst that works I prefer to cure the original problem not treat the symptom.

    Cyanuric acid is important as it prevents the chlorine being burned off during the day by the sun light (U.V.) but just like anything, too much of a good thing is bad

    Normal water parameters:
    FC 1.5-5.0
    pH 7.2-7.8
    TA 70-120
    CH 50-300
    CYA 30-50

    Phosphates should be as low as possible.
    Estimate your pool at around 100m3
    The correction of any pool chemistry will help with the long term management of the pool but is not specifically targeted at your stain.

    EDIT: Although you do have lots of shock in stock, please read the label as some of the shock has isocyanurate stabiliser in it which may make your problems worse

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    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Have you read Pool School yet? You can gather emense knowledge from that alone before you go.

    I would also recommend you get familar with this chart for chlorine/CYA. If your CYA is 50, you will need to keep a constant level of chlorine that does not dip below 4ppm with a target of 6ppm at all times. It is good to know that CYA and chlorine work off of each other. As posted above, too much of a good thing becomes a not so good thing.
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    does multi-action chlor have copper in it? usually the 4-way tabs do, not sure if that's the same thing, but they can cause issues like green hair, copper staining, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by teapot
    The forums' way is to add very large amounts of chlorine and maintain this level, whilst that works I prefer to cure the original problem not treat the symptom.
    do you mean following the chlorine/cya chart? it's a user's individual choice. if you read on here for any amount of time you will see many, many people advised to drain and refill.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Back before I found TFP, I used trichlor pacs inserted into an Ionizer system. My CYA/stabilizer levels had gotten too high and my FC levels were mainted about 1ppm, and I shocked every couple of weeks. After a couple of years I developed stains like you describe. I tried everything, I even treated it as if it was Black Algae (it wasn't) The stains would fade when the pool was at shock level and come back when the chlorine level dropped back to "normal".

    Long story short, I found TFP, lowered my CYA from over 100 down to 50 and maintained my FC levels according to the CYA chart. The stains faded after a few months and never returned.

    Here is a pic of my stains after a couple of weeks on TFP.
    http://www.troublefreepool.com/post5558.html#p5558

    I suspect this is the case with your pool - your CYA level is possibly too high and you don't have enough FC to keep the stains away.

    You need to order a good test kit to bring with you to France. Either the TF100 or the Taylor K-2006. You won't get either intime for your flight but TFtestkits.net ships anywhere in the world except Canada.

    Good luck, let us know how things work out.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: please help - do I need a new liner?

    Hi oasthouses,

    Since you will rarely be on-line in France, you could print parts of Pool School to take with you.

    Also, a good test kit will put you in control of your pool. You can read Test Kit Comparisons in Pool School.
    The best bang for the $$ is the TF100 sold by duraleigh at http://www.tftestkits.net .

    Welcome to the forum
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    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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