A few winterizing questions/clarifications

[garybtru]

Hi all,

Thanks again so much for helping me through the whole TFP method process. The pool has been great this summer - just dumping some bleach into it here and there. Love it!

The time has come to close our NY pool up, now that the water temp is consistently below 60º. At: Pool School - Closing an In Ground Pool I read that he lowers the water level 4" below the return jets. Last year (pre-TFP) I paid a pool shop to close the pool for me and they didn't lower the water level at all, and screwed a gizmo in the skimmer.

So my questions are: couldn't the pool's freeze/thaw cycle damage the concrete sides of the pool? That's the point of the gizmo, correct? (To relieve pressure on the sides of the pool and have the gizmo take it instead.) If the water level is below the returns, won't that defeat the purpose of the gizmo? Or is the gizmo's primary function just for the skimmer compartment? (And not the entire body of the pool?)

Also, is polyquat really needed for New York state pools? Seems like it would be more important in southern pools where the water temp is above 60 during winter months where algae can grow easier?

Edit: also, do you even bother blowing out the floor drain? Or for the floor drain do you just dump antifreeze into the pipe until it overflows?

Thanks a bunch!
-Gary

 

[wayner]

I have a mesh cover and I pay the company that built the pool to close and open it. They do pump the water down below the jets and (I believe) blow out the water from the lines. Over the winter the pool will refill from rain and snow and come May when we open the pool you have to actually pump water out as the pool will fill up to the very top. So I don't know that you have to worry about the sides too much. My pool is 10 years old and it has been closed this way every year - and here in Toronto we probably get a bit more freezing than you do in NY.

 

[garybtru]

I have a mesh cover and I pay the company that built the pool to close and open it. They do pump the water down below the jets and (I believe) blow out the water from the lines. Over the winter the pool will refill from rain and snow and come May when we open the pool you have to actually pump water out as the pool will fill up to the very top. So I don't know that you have to worry about the sides too much. My pool is 10 years old and it has been closed this way every year - and here in Toronto we probably get a bit more freezing than you do in NY.

Cool thanks @wayner - do they also put a gizmo in the skimmer?

 

[wayner]

I think they just put rubber plugs that you screw in to keep additional water from entering. To be honest it is hard to tell as the mesh cover hides everything.

The plug is one of these things:

 

[AftonJeeper]

If there is any chance water will be in the skimmer you would want to use the gizmo. It is designed to crush when the water freezes lowering the risk of the skimmer basket cracking.

 

[Chemnut]

Use a gizmo, also cut up a pool noodle and place in an out of the skimmer mouth if you don't want to use antifreeze.

 

[garybtru]

Thanks for the replies you guys. What about the floor drain? We have 2 on/off valves that merge into one piece of pvc just before going into our pump (one for the skimmer, one for the floor drain). I closed the floor drain one and then filled the skimmer line with antifreeze, but what should I do with the floor drain? Just close the skimmer and open the floor drain and dump a gallon or so of antifreeze in to mix w/ the floor drain water? (Obviously I can't plug the floor drain. )

 

[Catanzaro]

Edit: also, do you even bother blowing out the floor drain? Or for the floor drain do you just dump antifreeze into the pipe until it overflows?

I know that antifreeze is heavier than water, just like bleach is. Whether or not this will stay in the piping is something maybe someone else can answer. I would clear the main drain line and create an "air lock". What exactly did you use to clear the returns and skimmer lines? And where did you start?

The Gizzmo is designed for the skimmer as to protect for ice expansion. The extra foam rope is also a good idea. Regarding PolyQuat 60, this all depends on your chlorine levels at closing. If you SLAM, then do not bother, especially this time of the year. If your levels are with normal range, and pool is clean, then adding PolyQuat 60 makes sense.

So my questions are: couldn't the pool's freeze/thaw cycle damage the concrete sides of the pool?

I do not believe so. Ice expands where it can, usually up. There may be some pressure on the vinyl, but here in NJ, never have seen any problems. You will have harsher climates there, so please make sure that your lines are cleared out properly and antifreeze may be in your best interest. Just figure out a way to get them in the skimmer and return lines if you can. Getting antifreeze in the main drain would require locking the system with air and then adding the solution to the basket and clearing the lines for a few seconds. This would probably only work with an air compressor and an NPT fitting or a modified cover and the Cyclone.

 

[garybtru]

I know that antifreeze is heavier than water, just like bleach is. Whether or not this will stay in the piping is something maybe someone else can answer. I would clear the main drain line and create an "air lock". What exactly did you use to clear the returns and skimmer lines? And where did you start?

How exactly would I create the air lock though? Won't the floor drain just fill up w/ water as soon as the shopvac stops? Anyway, here's what I did so far:

- Took the cap off the gizmo and screwed it into the skimmer
- Shut off the floor drain and opened the skimmer line
- Blew out the skimmer line until mostly just air was shooting out
- Put the cap back on the top of the gizmo
- From where the pump used to be, filled the skimmer line with antifreeze until it started dripping out
- Closed the skimmer line and opened the floor drain line (heard some gurgling)
- Poured just a half gallon of anti-freeze into the floor drain line (ran outta antifreeze)
- Put on the safety cover

Getting antifreeze in the main drain would require locking the system with air and then adding the solution to the basket and clearing the lines for a few seconds. This would probably only work with an air compressor and an NPT fitting or a modified cover and the Cyclone.

I have a shopvac that I used to blow out the lines, seemed to work ok. Can't I just dump in a bunch of antifreeze into the floor drain and let it mix w/ the water if it's heavier than the water?

Thanks!

 

[Catanzaro]

How exactly would I create the air lock though? Won't the floor drain just fill up w/ water as soon as the shopvac stops? Anyway, here's what I did so far:I have a shopvac that I used to blow out the lines, seemed to work ok. Can't I just dump in a bunch of antifreeze into the floor drain and let it mix w/ the water if it's heavier than the water?

When you push air through plumbing, it removes the water to the other end. A larger volume of air will move more water. Once the water is removed, you will close the shut off valve and air is locked in the plumbing, thereby creating air gap above the frost line and water will remain below the frost line. Open the valve and air will escape. If the valve does not fail, then water will not fill up.

Regarding the antifreeze, this is a trickier question. If heavier than water, I would assume that the antifreeze would drip to the bottom of the drain in the pool and eventually not stay in the plumbing. With skimmers and returns, they are closed so antifreeze would be in the plumbing and not drip out. As I mentioned before, locking air in the system is how everyone closes pools with a main drain. I do have a friend with a pool that has no main drain and he only plugs everything up and adds antifreeze. The shop vac will probably not be powerful enough to clear the main drain. You may have to go with an air compressor to do this.

- - - Updated - - -

The concept of closing an in ground swimming pool

Above is a detailed post on closing a pool, which pretty much covers a lot of scenarios and you will be able to get further information.

When closing a pool, you are just removing water with air and either locking air in (Main Drain and Spill Over Spa) and then closing off other areas with either a black plug, threaded plug (which I do not like), and a Gizzmo. The key is to have enough air volume to accomplish the task.

 

[pookiesunshine]

... threaded plug (which I do not like)...

Cat, curious as to why you dont like threaded plugs? the ones i use have gasket/o-rings that help seal. been using them on my return lines since 1990.

 

[Chemnut]

I have been using those as well. Black rubber scares me because the can and do come out.

 

[Catanzaro]

Cat, curious as to why you dont like threaded plugs? the ones i use have gasket/o-rings that help seal. been using them on my return lines since 1990.

I tried using them with Teflon tape and Teflon lube and they were leaking air. Continued to tighten them and still they leaked. I was at a point where even removing them was difficult and luckily nothing broke. Nothing more than air coming back out of the piping into the pool. When I close my pool, goggles are used as I can see what is happening. The Cyclone produces so much volume that in order to get the black plug flush, I must wear goggles and stick my head in the water.

I find that the black ones, even if they give you the slightest trouble, no more than a full turn with small pliers (after you can not turn anymore) does the trick. Maybe the threaded ones that I had where the wrong kind (have no idea).

When I sent an e-mail to the manufacturer that these were purchased from, the comment was that they threaded white plugs are designed for above ground pools and it is best to use black rubber plugs. Nothing more than my personal experience.

 

[Chemnut]

Plugging under water with cyclone blowing isn't the best way to ensure you're doing it right. If you're not draining below the jets you should be using a duck plug or similar hydraulic plug that will allow the air out and allow you to tighten properly. Black closing plugs with several wraps of pink teflon have been used for years.

 

[Catanzaro]

Black closing plugs with several wraps of pink teflon have been used for years.

So has black rubber expandable plugs in where the water level is not drained below the returns. Most PB do not drain the water even below the skimmer upon closing. It is a matter of preference on what is right or wrong. If you open your pool without problems, then the pool was closed properly, no matter which plug you use. And there would be no way of knowing if the black plug or threaded plug caused a problem underground.

 

[garybtru]

thanks for the info!

... Once the water is removed, you will close the shut off valve and air is locked in the plumbing, thereby creating air gap above the frost line and water will remain below the frost line. Open the valve and air will escape. If the valve does not fail, then water will not fill up.

But once the air is locked in, how would you get antifreeze into there? You'd have to open the valve and water would rush back in, and you're back where you started right?

Regarding the antifreeze, this is a trickier question. If heavier than water, I would assume that the antifreeze would drip to the bottom of the drain in the pool and eventually not stay in the plumbing. With skimmers and returns, they are closed so antifreeze would be in the plumbing and not drip out. As I mentioned before, locking air in the system is how everyone closes pools with a main drain.

Ohh okay, so they just lock the air in the main drain pipe, without antifreeze? Got it, thanks.

I talked to our neighbor and he said for 30 years he's been blowing out their returns and skimmer lines, and adding a gallon of antifreeze to each. He doesn't even mess w/ the main drain at all since it's below the frost line.

So hopefully I'll be alright with just adding the 1/2 gallon of antifreeze to the main drain and blowing out/filling the skimmer line and returns w/ antifreeze. We'll see in the Spring!

 

[Chemnut]

Just how does one use an expandable plug while still blowing the lines? I can see doing one return while the other bubbles but how to do the second with all that air coming out???

 

[Catanzaro]

Just how does one use an expandable plug while still blowing the lines? I can see doing one return while the other bubbles but how to do the second with all that air coming out???

While clearing the lines, the first returns blows and then the black plug is installed. As the plug is tightened and no more air bubbles are seen, move on to the next and plug that return. Each return is closed in sequence. On the last return, the blower (Cyclone) is to be shut off immediately (with the help of another person) so there is no backpressure to the unit, and last plug placed in. Only the last plug would be difficult to install if you left the Cyclone on and this is why you need a second person. The second it takes to install the plug with a little air being released will not do any damage. Then go around the pool and check each plug to make sure that there are no leaks. If so, another slight 1/4 to 1/2 turn does the trick.

I talked to our neighbor and he said for 30 years he's been blowing out their returns and skimmer lines, and adding a gallon of antifreeze to each. He doesn't even mess w/ the main drain at all since it's below the frost line.

I have heard this before as well. Personally, I would not be comfortable doing this and always recommend clearing out the line and locking in the air. Always up to the pool owner to decide what method is best for themselves. There is no right or wrong way to close a pool, just options, but in the end all the lines should be cleared at least 90%. Main drain is another story as you can see done many different ways.



Water travels in one direction. Not 100% of all the water is removed, but at least 90%, if not more is removed from the plumbing. No issues with

 

[Chemnut]

I never blew my main drain for years until I splurged in the cyclone. I like seeing the volcano so much that I've done it during pool parties.

 

[garybtru]

Hi all, just one more q: do those of you in winter-prone areas usually bring your sight glass and the pressure gauge(s) inside for the winter as well?

Thanks!