Anything like an automation buyers guide...?

[BMeeley]

I've searched the threads and forums and I get that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to pool automation, nor should there be. I guess what I'm looking for is something that could take some basic parameters, like pool size and equipment/stuff to control, and give some basic guidelines on appropriate products. None of the bundles seem quite right for me, and I'm not confident (yet) making individual selections on the power center, system board, controller, and supplemental relays, etc. to "design" my own system.

I'm looking at Pentair, since I already have their filter and am all but decided on the InelliFlow for a replacement pump.

Is there a good starter thread here that is relatively current? Or any online or manufacturer planning resources out there folks think might be helpful?

I'm reading alot and have a working grasp of the issues, technologies and features, but....

cheers

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you are considering automation, it’s a good idea to keep all the electronic equipment (pump and SWG) in the same family.

I like Pentair automation as I feel it’s the best. You can go retro with a standard RF based EasyTouch remote (that’s what I have) or you can expand out to a full-blown WiFi setup with ScreenLogic. The best part is that Pentair doesn’t require any online “cloud” based accounts for their systems.

Hayward is 2nd place in my opinion.

I’m not a Jandy fan at all (except for their valves).

Anything else out there (Intermatic, etc) is going to be too far behind the leaders to be considered.

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

Below is my standard answer to your question. I suspect it will just make you want to ask more questions...

*****

Many people have pools without automation and they work just fine. I do, however, think it is important to know the advantages and the disadvantages of having an automation system.

1. Automation will help you with pool maintenance, but it will not replace the need for you to test your water, understand what you are looking at, and then making sure your water is balanced. (Another reason you need the accuracy of the TF100 test kit.)

2. The main downside to automation is cost. So before going too far down this path, you might ask your PB what it's going to cost. That said, the best time to install automation is when the pool is being built, because all the connections to the system can be made without having to figure out how you are to get power across 50' of new deck. Also, the additional cost, when compared to the cost of the pool, will be miniscule.

3. Automation systems work best when the same brand is used because then the pieces can "talk" to together. So, in your case I would recommend the EasyTouch 4 (or 8) that has a built in power supply for the SWG and generally comes with the SWG and two valves. ScreenLogic2 is an absolute requirement if you want to be able to control things from your PC or Phone.

Here is a list of what I think the advantages are:

1. Appearance. Instead of having a bunch of different boxes hanging on your wall you have one, professional looking enclosure.

2. Circuit Breaker Panel. The bottom half of the enclosure is a circuit-breaker panel where the breakers for your pool equipment (Pumps, Heater, etc.) are located. This panel is also an excellent place to add surge protector, which is an absolute must if you have the Intelliflo pump. Even if you do not get the automation, make sure your PB includes a surge protector for the pump.

3. SWG Control. Without automation, your SWG will have to have a timer, synced to the pump timer so that it does not run when the pump is off. This function is built into the EasyTouch.

4. Spa mode and SWG output. Normally all the water flows through the SWG, so when in the Spa mode, the EasyTouch reduces the amount of chlorine the SWG produces, so that the Spa users are not subjected to high levels of chlorine.

5. Pool Lighting. The EasyTouch allows you to control your pool lighting from your PC and/or from a schedule. This is another reason to add the EasyTouch now. Once your pool light is wired to switches inside your house, it might be very difficult to get the wiring to any automation system.

6. Control of Spill-over and bubblers. Right now I'm sure you are thinking I want that spillover running 24-hours a day because it is so beautiful.. Well, after a few weeks of having your pH go through the roof, you'll appreciate the ability to only turn it on, when you want it on. The same with the bubblers. With the Easytouch, you can program them to run on a schedule for a few minutes a day to keep the everything properly chlorinated or when you want to "show off" to your guests..

7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

8. Built in Valve controls. The EasyTouch has the ability to control 4 valves. Two work for switching between the Pool and Spa modes, while two others can be programmed to do whatever you might want, like bubbler control. I would note that a lot of bubblers are controlled by manual valves that cannot be automated. You need to be sure to tell your PB that you want Jandy style valves for your bubbler control.

9. Heater Control. The EasyTouch can control your heater.. So, you can be inside and tell your PC what temperature you want the Spa to be and it will tell you when it is ready.

10. ScreenLogic. ScreenLogic allows you to program the EasyTouch with various schedules. It lets you see most all of the inputs and output to the EasyTouch and lets you decide what you want on/off and in the case of your SWG, lets you adjust the % of output on the fly.

11. Pool pump speed... The EasyTouch can be programmed to adjust your pumps speed. So when running just the pool, it can run slow, but when running your waterfall, it will automatically increase the speed to make your waterfall or other water features look exactly how you want them to look.

******

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[BMeeley]

Jim,

That's a great standard answer, and very thorough. And yes, I still have many questions, but will continue reading. Some of the main features I'm interested in include:

• Customized pre-set modes like skim, circulate, heat, clean, spa
• Precise valve control to balance flow from each return at task-efficient pump speeds
• Internet-enabled control from PC and phones
• Pool lights, and later landscape lights
• Integrating the robot cleaner would be cool, but haven't seen anybody that does that
• Consolidating breakers and GFCI/surge protection into a single housing

I could be talked out of any of these, but they seem important with 4 years' experience operating my pool. The upgrade will likely happen as part of an equipment relocation, discussed here.

So, right now, exploring the differences between EasyTouch 4/8 and IntelliTouch. Both will require ScreenLogic add-on for remote operability. It's still unclear to me which system, add-ons and expansions will most cost-effectively suit from the Pentair lineup, right down to Jandy or Pentair valves and actuators. It would be great if they offered a Compare feature like Amazon and many other online destinations. Maybe one day.

Still, it's fun to plan...

cheers

 

[JoyfulNoise]

• Customized pre-set modes like skim, circulate, heat, clean, spa
• Precise valve control to balance flow from each return at task-efficient pump speeds
• Internet-enabled control from PC and phones
• Pool lights, and later landscape lights
• Integrating the robot cleaner would be cool, but haven't seen anybody that does that
• Consolidating breakers and GFCI/surge protection into a single housing

Most of that list is totally possible with exception of precise valve control. Valve controllers for pools are "dumb" - they either select one pipe or the other pipe or you can manually set the internal cams on the valve driver to stop at specific positions. In other words, you can not finely control the how much a valve is open through the control panel, it's either one direction or the other. The reason being are cost and complexity for very little value add - the system would be too expensive to have some kind of positive feedback control valve constantly trying to adjust its opening in order to balance a specific flow rate...it's just not done in residential pool controls.

I have thought that a company like Maytronics should produce expansions modules for all the various control systems out there so their robots can be plugged right into the automation panel and take advantage of that, but they don't. So robot cleaners and their control are totally separate from the pool automation.

 

[BMeeley]

Actually, the Intellivalve actuator does 7.5 degree increments across the 180 deg swing. Some flow meter measurements at pump preset speeds allow you to measure each flow and setup modes to better balance flows. Or such is my working theory. Jandy makes an add on board that does the same thing for the JVA.

So I don’t need real time feedback control, just more precise control to balance the skimmers and drains for different functions. That’s a surprising challenge with my current vintage 1 hp pump.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Actually, the Intellivalve actuator does 7.5 degree increments across the 180 deg swing. Some flow meter measurements at pump preset speeds allow you to measure each flow and setup modes to better balance flows. Or such is my working theory. Jandy makes an add on board that does the same thing for the JVA.

So I don’t need real time feedback control, just more precise control to balance the skimmers and drains for different functions. That’s a surprising challenge with my current vintage 1 hp pump.

I'm already quite aware of those valves and if you look at those IntelliValves more carefully you will see that, while they can go to incremental setpoints, neither the EasyTouch nor the IntelliTouch automation system can select that. The incremental changes are only possible manually at the valve. Otherwise, the automation system simply drives them to their pre-determined endpoints. So, from a cost standpoint, you're paying a large markup for some very limited intelligence.

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

Using a single speed pump with an automation system is kind of like taking a shower with your clothes on... It might work, but it is just not the same...

Automation systems are designed to use VS pumps. Here is a simple example from my pool. My only water feature is a waterfall wall. Since running it all the time will drive my pH through the roof, I only use it when I have a reason. Clicking a ScreenLogic Icon will turn it on or off. But, you don't want water sitting in the piping and going stagnant if not used often, so I have a schedule that flushes the pipes once a day for 15 minutes. At 9 am, an automated valve turns and diverts most of the water going to my pool returns to the waterfall plumbing. At the same time, the pump is told to increase speed from 1200 rpm to 2800 rpm, which is what the waterfall needs to look right. After 15 minutes, the pump returns to 1200 rpm and the valve is turned the other way to return flow to the pool eyeballs.

I can't think of a single reason to use valves that can turn in incremental amounts. If you want to run two things at once then a manual valve that adjusts the flow will work just fine.. As a general rule, once you set it where you want, you won't need to change it again, or at least not change it very often,

And what Matt says about the IntelliValve is correct.... All valves can be mechanically adjust to turn less than 180 degrees, so that you can have a valve like my waterfall valve that "mechanically" allows some water to go out both ports.. The IntelliValve, just lets you do this adjustment with electronics from outside the valve, rather than mechanically from inside the valve. My personally opinion is... it is just not needed for want it does. I highly doubt is it is a big seller...

The EasyTouch is for about 90% of the residential pool applications. The IntelliTouch is for the other 10% where the pools are very complex, have multiple pumps, and require an advanced degree of programming.

The EasyTouch is much cheaper than the IntelliTouch systems.

The EasyTouch is bought as an complete system.. There are a couple of different levels, but still they come all assembled and ready to go.

The IntelliTouch is more like a kit of subassemblies that you put together to build a system custom designed for your pool.

Keep the questions coming... I've got all day..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[BMeeley]

Agreed on the single speed pump. This is part of a much larger equipment relocation and upgrade, including an IntelliFlow VS pump. Maybe the pump upgrade will solve my current issue, which is this.

When I set both skimmers wide open, I only get good flow through one of them. To have both drawing water, I need to partially close one of them, diverting suction to the pool drain which has much greater resistance. Doing this, I get a more balanced draw in both skimmers. So here is my thinking.

When the VS pump goes in, I isolate each skimmer and drain on the suction side through a flow meter at each of the four preset speeds on the VSP and note the GPM. I then have a curve for each and have a feel for the ratio of the resistance. I then fine-tune the valves to balance the total flow across each of the combinations I want. In circulate mode i may want balance across each of the suction side elements and the returns at a speed that produces about 45 gpm. If I want the skimmers cleaning the surface (I get a lot of leaves, bugs and such) I would balance the draw on the skimmers, close the drains and set a pump speed at maybe 60 gpm. Spa mode is pretty self-explanatory with a target flow of about 72 gpm. When heating the pool, that would be another mode to configure. All on a schedule, as you say, to cycle through and not have water sitting in pipes.

On the actuators, I've seen that the iAqualink can select the valve position when you add the Smart JVA card to the 4424 actuator so I just assumed the Pentair stuff could do the same. Seems kind of silly to have the capability with no way to control it.

I come from a long line of compulsive over-engineer types. What can I say?

 

[Jimrahbe]

I come from a long line of compulsive over-engineer types.

b,

Well, that explains it...

It is a pool, not a nuclear reactor, and close... just like in hand grenades... is close enough.

Your skimmer actions seems pretty normal to me and I would assume it is because one of them is much nearer to the equipment pad.

There is just no reason to measure GPM in order to balance the flow between skimmers, but I can tell already I'm spinning my wheels... As long as you are having fun doing it, then go for it..

Thanks again for posting,

Jim R.

 

[BMeeley]

Yep. You kinda nailed it. Many of my clients are nuclear engineers.

I'll keep noodling and post on progress in the appropriate places.

cheers

 

[VillageSquidiot]

Actually, the Intellivalve actuator does 7.5 degree increments across the 180 deg swing. Some flow meter measurements at pump preset speeds allow you to measure each flow and setup modes to better balance flows. Or such is my working theory. Jandy makes an add on board that does the same thing for the JVA.

So I don’t need real time feedback control, just more precise control to balance the skimmers and drains for different functions. That’s a surprising challenge with my current vintage 1 hp pump.