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Thread: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

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    New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    Hello - I am grateful to have found this forum during my search for answers. I'm so discouraged I could cry. [This post below has gotten longer and longer. I apologize but don't know what information will help you best to help me, so it may be too much.]

    Last year shortly after opening the pool and getting it chemically balanced, the motor (& sand filter) died. It was out of warranty, and I couldn't afford a new one. So that was that. That motor was a 2-speed, and I 'think' it was a 2 HP. The low speed barely moved, and the high speed was pretty powerful and the polaris did a great job getting the leaves off the bottom at the beginning of the season each year (though it needs those internal parts almost yearly).

    This year, I just bought and received a pump and cartridge filter (description below signature) - and was directed that a 1 HP would be sufficient by the saleswoman who has a pool my size and said the 1.5 HP would be overpowered, more than I needed, needlessly expensive to run, etc. After using it for 3-4 days, I am miserably worried it is undersized, because the pressure is so faint coming out of the return.

    The polaris 65 / turbo turtle model was doing it's one-sided thing, so I picked up the two new internal parts and changed out the piston. I have yet to put it back in to try it, because the pressure against my hand on the return wouldn't push a paper boat across the surface. It's practically non-existent, so I turned off the motor. I've relied on the polaris every year to clean out the trash on the bottom - and now there isn't enough pressure to do so (yes, the sales woman assured me before ordering that the 1 HP would be plenty strong enough; she would have made more by directing me to the 1.5 HP, so she must have thought she was correct - but the results are keenly disappointing).

    (I put my last two gallons of 'splashes' baquacil type shock in it and had put an algicide in a month ago. It's pretty bluish, cloudy, but when running the net along the bottom, green does bubble up.)

    This new pump & cartridge didn't come with gate valves (I didn't think to ask about that, and the information wasn't volunteered) - so I have struggled against the water tide (and stuffing the openings up) to hose off the cartridge twice already, because there was definitely a lot of algae in the pool that I thought might be causing the slowdown. (I got the idea 'somewhere' that a cartridge filter would be so much easier than a sand filter.) I had leaves in the bottom that I have tried to scoop out with a leaf net. I've been searching for reasonably priced gate valves, and there are no pool stores anywhere near here. I'm afraid I have wasted $250 am stuck with a pump that will never be strong enough, so besides the $35 on polaris parts, $40 on my last 2 shocks, and possibly $50+ on two gate valves, plus the chemicals I put in during spring, and the chemicals I will/would have to buy still, I'm unsure if I'm going to get to swim this year. In short - if the motor will never be any good and I've wasted my money, I won't sink $300+ in another bigger one this year in time to have any swim time left. Sometimes here in north Georgia by early September (with no solar heater) - the pool is too chilly for me to enjoy. So I'm fast running out of season. If it's too small, there's no point in adding more chemicals, buying gate valves, or stressing that motor by trying to make it run - If I'm going to have to try to get any money out of it by reselling it. But 'if' it's a dirty pool causing the problem, then I need to buy those gate valves so I can clean out the filter 'however' often until it's clean. (Every few hours?? or daily??) I am willing to spend money 'if' I can swim - but I am self employed during this tough economy, and I have no more money to waste on a losing proposition.

    All these problems may have been moot with a 1.5 HP motor. I haven't seen or read of anybody having to hose their cartridge filter every few hours. I am stuck which way to turn.

    So that's when I found this forum, while looking for gate valves. Number one: Is my motor too small to ever be of sufficient use? Otherwise, why does it barely push the water? I have put about 12-14 hrs on it at the most and don't want to risk burning it up. The pressure was 18 both before and after the two hose cleanings, although the water ran clear each time when I was done (very green before the cleaning). The return flow is as puny as the low speed on the other motor, which was so faint I never used it. I've read the pressure is supposed to go 'down' after cleaning. It's possible I didn't clean the inner folds well enough, and I didn't soak it, just hosed it, because of course I'm losing pool water the entire time with my bungee-rags water-blocking affair going on.

    A real train wreck all around!

    I'm so very discouraged and overwhelmed. Many thanks in advance to the kind folks who will try to steer me back on the road.

    Catherine
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    reebok's Avatar
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    well you found a gold mine I can tell you that much. there are lots of people here that can help you with every aspect. the first thing you need to do is stop wasting money on baquacil. you will spend a ton less using bleach (or chlorine if you can get it there from a pool store) and your pool will be much easier to maintain.
    as far as the pump, that pool is on the small side if anything, and I can't imagine 1hp being too small. you would probably be fine with 3/4hp, but anyway, moot point. what are you saying about gate valves? are you not turning off the pump to clean the cartridge? if not, you should.
    this is what will help people here help you:
    pictures of your setup would be great. a full set of water test results.
    you should really get a test kit from www.tftestkits.net. I know it's expensive up front, but you've been throwing money down the drain with baquacil (no offense, I looked into it too before I found this website) and it will save you untold amounts of money in the end by letting you be in control of your pool. your pool will also be nicer than it probably ever has. but it will take a lot of work, esp as a current baqua user. while others start gearing up to answer you, start reading pool-school/ and plan on reading it a few times for it to make more sense.
    you've come to the right place!
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    Join Date
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    Charleston, SC
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    I have almost the same setup you do, and my 1hp pump even is able to power my solar heating system, and still have enough pressure to power my polaris 65.

    Once you get the pressure issue sorted, I can help with your polaris 65 if need be, just keep posting updates.
    18' Round ABG (8000 gallon)
    Hayward X-Stream Cartridge Filter
    1.5hp Hayward PowerFlo Matrix Pump
    80 sq. ft. solar panels
    Goldline automated solar controller

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    Join Date
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    Sacramento CA
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    I have a cart filter and it may be that you are not letting the air out after cleaning. There is a black plastic pipe at the top of the dome with a pressure guage on the front and a turn knob onthe back. After cleaning and assembling your filter turn the filter pump on and then turn the knob {just a flat up and downpiece of plastic] counter clockwise until you hear air rushing out. After a minute water should come out.
    20K gallons,plaster, IG, Posi Flo 100 cartridge filter, 3/4hp pump. , Polaris 280?

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    Join Date
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    Contiued..... then close the knob. When the pool is very dirty I may have to clean the filter 3 or 4 times a day. I dont know about gate valves. Is your line to the filter below the pool water level.
    20K gallons,plaster, IG, Posi Flo 100 cartridge filter, 3/4hp pump. , Polaris 280?

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    Firstly: *Thank you* for reassuring me I did not buy the wrong motor. What a huge relief to see these helpful posts!!

    I did see the baqa-switchover thread and will read more. I just don't like the chlorine smell and how it eats clothes, but I will listen with an open mind. That's another reason I decided not to spend (waste) one more nickel until I could listen to the pros' advice here on this forum.

    About that pump: There is a hole in the top near the gauge, and there was a short black tube in the bag (no instructions). So I don't have that tube in; nor did I notice or know to look for that pressure piece on the back of the cartridge housing, which I will do when the rain stops. Yes, the pump is below the water level and on the ground. Yes, I did shut the motor off during cleaning - but then was rushing to hose the filter off because water was still rapidly spilling through my homemade water-blocking efforts (bungees on the water hoses holding them up against the pool sides; rags stuffed in to staunch the water flow - because I don't have the gate valves yet to properly stop the water). And it was very hard to get the threaded cover back on with the water coming out so forcefully, too.

    It was also a relief to hear someone else had to clean their filter cartridge a lot at first. I think the polaris might straighten itself out (due to the new innards I bought), once I have decent pressure coming out of the return. In fact, after reading about a polaris repair on this forum, I even put back the original assembly just as an experiment - in case it had only been 'stuck' - now that I am not intimidated by taking the thing apart.

    It's raining out now and just barely light. I'll take photos later.

    I am heartened that all may not be lost on this pool yet! *Another thing - I was reusing the former hoses, and then I noticed the new white ones that came with the new motor were slightly shorter. So perhaps some power is getting wasted on that extra foot of hose from the motor to the pool wall?

    In the meantime, I will be reading the links supplied.

    With much gratitude from Catherine.
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    If your pool is green then cleaning the cartridge more often is required, yes, you should get some gate/ball valves to eliminate the frustration of frequent cleanings. Once things are straight, it's a month or two between cleanings at most. If the pressure valve wasn't in the top of the filter, the water would be shooting out of the top when the pump is running....

    As for chlorine/vs baq....all you have to do is read thru a few of the threads in that forum about former baq users...

    To clear something up - a properly chlorinate chlorine pool does not smell. If you go near/to/by a chlorine pool and smell chlorine, it is not being properly maintained, and what you smell are actually "combined chloramines", indicating poor water balance. It usually means the pool doesn't have enough free chlorine to be effectively sanitizing.

    Yes, bleach can splash and stain clothes, but I've been using it for over two years and have yet to get a single spot/stain. It does not fade or degrade my swimsuits.

    Good luck with the plumbing situation. Wish I could assist with that.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    Thanks for the kind and encouraging words. Since I posted, I've been immersed in 'pool school' and saw what you are saying - that chlorine is getting a bad rap.

    I know for sure: Being able to buy chemicals easily and cheaply (instead of 65 miles away or online) would be a huge benefit. I saw the test kit, and while yes, it is somewhat expensive, so is a big load of baqua chems that I probably won't be buying now.

    I'm hopeful that some photos of the cart system, tube in the bag, etc. will enable someone to set me straight on the pressure. And I'm searching for reasonably priced valves to make the cart cleaning easier.
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    [attachment=2:3giop7p9]MysteryTube.jpg[/attachment:3giop7p9]This is the mystery tube; I have no idea where it goes. Unscrewing that small button on the top does allow water to leak out.[attachment=1:3giop7p9]gauge-on.jpg[/attachment:3giop7p9]It always seems to stay at 18 lbs (while running), even after the two hose-off cleanings.[attachment=0:3giop7p9]poolFlow.jpg[/attachment:3giop7p9]The small water flow ripples may be visible in this photo.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    [attachment=2:4oku8gwe]label.jpg[/attachment:4oku8gwe][attachment=1:4oku8gwe]screw-onConnector.jpg[/attachment:4oku8gwe]Where the gate valve would attach after unscrewing this connection?[attachment=0:4oku8gwe]gateValve.jpg[/attachment:4oku8gwe] Will this gate valve work? Description says: USED ON ABOVE GROUND POOLS,1 ON SUCTION SIDE, 1 ON THE RETURN. IT IS THREADED 1 1/2" MALE ON 1 SIDE AND FEMALE ON THE OTHER."
    Attached Images Attached Images
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    [attachment=0:2x4mfz5m]FullSetup.jpg[/attachment:2x4mfz5m] Two white hoses came with the new motor which are shorter than the black ones from the old larger motor. Would shorter hoses increase the water pressure?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    If it's inappropriate or inconsiderate of the bandwidth to post so many pictures, someone please tell me and I will remove them. Here is a link online with enlargements:

    http://catherinescornucopia.com/POOL/PoolPix.htm
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    I'm no expert on pumps/filters, etc., but the 1 hp pump may be okay, but in my opinion that cart filter is too small...which could be part of the problem. When it comes to pump/filter combos, bigger is always better on the filter side of things. Often pool stores sell too big pumps combined with too small filters. In your case, the pump may be adequate, but the filter isn't.

    Hopefully others with more expertise in this area will advise.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    It came as a one-piece unit.
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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    reebok's Avatar
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    I would try the new hoses just to see. I wouldn't think there should be much of a difference, but I would use the ones that were made for it. that said, my only guess would be perhaps something is stuck in one of those hoses or somewhere in the cartridge filter unit, preventing water flow. have you checked the hoses? we have some really good hardware people here like waste, sphisex and of course all the mods, so they should be here soon. it is a holiday weekend though.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    My gut tells me it my need a better cleaning of the filter - especially after another member mentioned having to clean theirs 3-4 times a day. I don't think anything is stuck because the water pours out through those hoses. I hope to find out if that valve (pictured) will fit, then get two of them and wait for the test kit. When I can properly shut off the water, then I can soak the filter in a bucket to make sure the pleats are really cleaned off. Then - try the polaris again. My biggest worry was that I was sold the wrong motor - but others think it should be fine (thank goodness for that). Everything else should be able to be corrected, thanks to this forum and my diligence following instructions. Hopefully sooner rather than later!! Maybe this year I can get a solar panel to extend the season and make up for this lost time.

    I did like the baqua chemicals for the first five years, but it was a nuisance having to have it tested so far away, which meant it got tested once a month at best, except for those test strips which are probably next to meaningless. It sounds like with bleach and chlorine and the tester, I can do it myself (ha ha not exactly 'myself', I mean after learning the lessons on this forum). So many here are advocates of the bleach and chlorine, that makes me think twice. I think the baqua might have cost $225-ish a season for my size pool: 6 shocks, 2 algistats, 1 or 2 algicides, some balancers. I'm curious how much the chlorine/bleach should come to.
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

  17. Back To Top    #17
    reebok's Avatar
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    have you tried taking the cartridge out and running the pump to see if it makes a difference? and water pours out of the return pipe also right?
    cost depends on many factors, but it will be less overall. you're going to be using a lot initially though with the conversion. one factor is if you can actually get liquid chlorine or not. otherwise people find good bleach prices at walmart, aldi, sams, costco, etc. you'll just have to shop around.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    That's a clever idea, to remove the filter and then try it. I was trying to get the valves put on next thing because it's very hard to work against the water flow and getting that big lid threaded back properly with the all the pressure coming ut - it wants to go on crooked and they warn against stripping it out if you're not careful.

    *Can anyone tell from looking at the picture of the hose connector on the wall of the pool and that 1-1/2" male + female thread (not sure what these mean exactly) on the gate valve to see if that one would fit?

    Yes, I can get bleach from a walmart. I saw the 6% thing vs 3% on the cheaper stuff. Walmart is 35 minutes away.
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
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    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    Catherine, welcome to TFP!!

    Reebok was kind enough to shoot me a pm to take a look at this post

    Your pump should be able to drive the Polaris! I think the cart is restricting the flow too much. I know you've been to Pool School and read about Baq conversion (and I hope you realize you'll need a new cart after you're finished) - have you gotten down to the further reading section? If not, Waterbear wrote up a post on How To Clean A Cartridge Filter Reebok's suggestion of running without the cart in will determine if the pump is indeed strong enough to run the Polaris.

    The gate valves you gave us a picture of look like they were specifically designed for AG pools 8) Please read Spishex's Teflon Tape and You for info on properly sealing threaded connections. However, it'll be wet threading those valves in - I'd recommend picking up 2 plugs and just use them to plug the skimmer and return line when you want to clean the cart or empty the pump basket SP 1022- C are threaded plastic 1 1/2" plugs with a rubber o- ring to provide a positive seal or you can use expandable rubber plugs with a wing nut on them (size 9 or 9 1/2 work well for 1 1/2" pipe) Do you already have winterizing plugs that you could use for this?

    Take care! We'll be here to help you take control of your pool and equipment
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: New Cartridge Undersized?? + Polaris 65 Repairs & More

    Ted - Thanks for the kind welcome, and everyone's help is so appreciated.

    First - Where would I find the 'plugs' that you write of? Is that something different from my pictured gate valve? I'm trying to pay as little as possible, of course - the valves around here are $25 apiece, so that one pictured is very reasonable and available online ($5.95 each on ebay with a combined shipping of 5.95 plus a bit more for the 2nd one.

    If the motor is the problem, I'm stuck with it, so fingers crossed on that one too. Yes, I've heard the tape is very important as well. Honestly, I'd settle for a bit of leakage temporarily with all my other troubles going on.

    Yes, I read with dismay that baqua can ruin a filter. The only chems I have used in the pool with the new filter are the 2 'Splashes' baqua knockoff bottles of shock. I haven't studied up enough to know if I have ruined the filter already by doing that or not (fingers crossed). In fact, I've stopped cold because I fear everything/anything I do is wrong. This is after having a pool 5 years and feeling confident (falsely??) up till this year!!
    18' AG - 7600 Gals
    Intex Krystal ClearTM Sand Filter
    Pump 14 (360mm) & Saltwater System Model CS15110
    Polaris 65 Pool Cleaner
    AquaQuik 4512 Solar Heater (Round with Plastic Dome Cover)

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