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Thread: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

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    $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Hey all... This is the Simpleton's Wife again... I need help... I am confused. I thought I was doing great, I at least had clear water for maybe 2 straight months working your method (I thought). I got a little less then clear and increased my chlorine and ended up adding the stuff called revive (which I see referenced here as PhosFree... same stuff I think) everything falls to the ground I vacuum it up and we are smooth again for another couple of weeks.

    about 3 weeks ago our pool use increases.. my teen has friends over with tanning oil addictions and I start losing ground fast. I start looking more then cloudy, I see shades of green. Panicked, I think the revive should help again I spray it everything falls I vacuum, it falls again, I vacuum... but I am vacuuming to waste and my water levels are dropping. my well has been a little temperamental in the heat (we try not to speak badly of her though) and I cant vacuum again in time for a scheduled party so I brush all the stuff into the deep end thinking if its 8 ft deep it wont stir too much and we have our party.

    This is when we have the fall out. The next morning nothing had settled again. we are green funky and cloudy. I put the other half of revive (one bottle says it treat 25,000 galls and we are 30. I used half the bottle originally and then I just added the other half of the bottle) and nothing falls. I start chlorine and I am maintaining but not winning, so in frustration I start throwing ungodly amounts of chlorine in and we are now a beautiful shade of blue, quite stunning really, but you cant see the second step down the ladder it is so cloudy.

    so lets talk specifics. I know you all like the numbers. We are a 30,000 gall IG pool with a vinyl liner. my CYA has been pretty steady 38-40. I havent tested calcium but when I went 3 weeks ago to the pool store for their free tests it was exactly at the number you guys say to target (cant recall) and so I imagine it is pretty close. When I test alkalinity I need 11 or 12 drops. at 11 drops it feels like it really wants to turn red but then it goes back to this gray color but the 12th drop it holds red so I am saying 120 ppm right? my pH was pretty steady at 7.5 until I went crazy with the chlorine and now it is 7.2 so:

    pH 7.2 -7.5
    TA 120 ppm
    CA good
    CYA 40

    these numbers have stayed pretty constant.... so help me understand this chlorine deal. first of all my test kit has 6 shades of pink which they number 0-5. you add 5 drops of dpd1 and it goes cloudy then 5 drops of dpd2 and it goes pink. you are supposed to look at the depth of the shade of pink and then you add 5 drops of dpd3 for combined chlorine. it looks very much like one of the kits you recommend here but I bought it at the pool store and it is "pool life" brand.

    I was keeping the chlorine right between the 1 and the 2 before we went to war. then for the last 2 weeks I have been trying to keep it at the 5. I found that adding 8 gallons of bleach moved my number up about 2 levels (so that if I was on 0 I went to 2 etc) but each scoop of shock moved it up one level. after hauling 8-10 bottles of bleach around with 3 kids and having them bust in each of our cars and ruin my good shirts and our car interior and everything else I gave up on the bleach and went to these huge containers of shock from the pool. they are $86 a container but when I calculated my cost in bleach to raise the same level it was comparable and I couldnt keep up the with all the bleach containers and a 3yr old... sorry.

    so I threw in 4 scoops of shock in the morning got it up to the 5 and by the afternoon i was down to nothing again and threw in 4 more scoops of shock. I am on my 6th bucket now and finally I come on here for help. I read all through your algae forum and I see people keeping their chlorine levels at 40 um... I can not afford to barely keep it at 5 what am I doing wrong?!?!? I am willing to try the bleach again but is there some way to buy it by the keg and keep it on tap? 20 to 30 bottles a day is dangerous to have around.

    I know we are winning the war because the color is so lovely now and I am just running and running the pump but in your algae forum you say to keep it at shock level until you dont lose but a certain amount of chlorine overnight and I am thinking my test kit isnt the kind that can show me that.

    so what say you pool gurus out there... any advice?
    ------------------
    Setup in 2007
    30,000 Gallon Rectangle
    Sand Filter & Polaris 360

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    Rubygrrl's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    I am a total newbie at this--so wait for someone with more experience...but I also made the mistake of adding PhosFree when I should of shocked my pool.

    I think you need to get an accurate FC level--and then shock it to 16 (if your CYA is 40) and keep it there (you will have to check your FC levels at least 3 times a day if not more) and add as much bleach as it takes to stay at 16ppm FC. You can let the FC fall when 1. your pool is sparkling clean AND 2. you have less than .5 ppm CC AND 3. you perform an overnight FC loss and it is less than 1ppm.

    I would suggest reading these in pool school:

    How to defeat algae = pool-school/defeating_algae
    How to shock your pool = pool-school/shocking_your_pool
    How to perform an overnight FC test = pool-school/overnight_fc_test

    The above articles were very helpful for me. I even printed them out to keep nearby!

    I hope I helped a little bit!

    I am trying to get rid of some algae too!

    Again, I am very new to this--so I would wait for someone to confirm what I am saying. I certainly do not want to tell someone to do the wrong thing!

    In-Ground Vinyl Pool
    21,000 gallons
    Sand Filter
    1 1/2 hp pump

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    TizMe's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    If your CYA level is 40 your min FC level you should keep in your pool is 3. Your target FC level is 6. It does not take 30 bott;es of bleach to keep your FC levels up ONCE your water is balanced. I use 1 small jug/night at $1.58 from Wal Mart and I think that is very inexpensive to maintain your pool. We suggest having 20 or so bottles around because you will use that much quickly fighting algae and it saves running to the store. I keep 6 - 8 jugs on hand all the time which is a weeks worth of bleach for me.

    If your FC is dropping to O each day then you need to shock your pool because you have an algae bloom. You should also get a test kit that can measure FC levels over 5ppm as you will have to bring yours to 16ppm to fight the algae and maintain it that high until it is dead. I suggest the TF100 test kit sold here or the K2006 (i think it is called) sold at Leslies. Both are good but I prefer the TF100 and a lot of the people here use that kit. Customer service is outstanding by the people who sell it. They are members of this forum so help is always available.

    If you can see that tanning oil makes you have pool issues then tell the kids not to go in with it on. Its your pool and your money your !

    I suggest doing an overnight FC loss test to determine if you do have algae on not. The causes of chlorine depletion are sun and algae. So by doing it at night you eliminate the sun factor. Get some bleach , bring your pool to shock level (16ppm for you) after sunset and recheck it in the morning before the sun gets on the pool. If you have a FC loss of more than 1ppm then you will need to shock your pool until the algae is gone.
    Les
    Don't have a pool right now. Just sharing what I have learned over the years!
    Helpful Links:
    Pool School,Pool Calculator,Cl/CYA Shock Chart,TF Test Kit
    Doing BBB and loving it!

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    so help me understand this chlorine deal.
    Reading your entire post, I see that as your issue.

    You first got algae because you let your chlorine levels get too low. You can get rid of that algae (and stop consuming so much chlorine) by elevating your chlorine levels very high and holding them very high until your pool clears.

    It is very difficult to do this without a test kit that accurately measures high levels of chlorine.

    Did you do the testing for the CYA or did a pool store. If the pool store tested it, I wouldn't trust it. Do your own testing.

    You can have a crystal clear pool with chlorine as low as 2-3ppm but, until you rid your pool of the algae that's still in it, you will be adding more and more chlorine all summer.

    The "shock" you are using (there is no such thing as shock altho pool stores would have you believe otherwise) is likely calcium hypochlorite (simply chlorine in a different form). It will eventually put too much calcium in your pool and cause some other problems.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    This is the test kit you need - click here. It can test the FC up to 50ppm and is much easier to use than your DPD test.

    You cannot keep only 1-2 ppm of chlorine in your pool, that is what caused this problem. Look at the CYA Chart in my signature - you have to maintain a "min" for YOUR CYA level, if it's 40.

    What is the active ingredient on the tubs of chlorine you bought? I suspect they were trichlor or Dichlor, since your PH level has dropped.... If in fact its not cal-hypo, your CYA is probably higher now.

    So we need to confirm this.

    So order the test kit, and start shocking. Use 16 as your goal for now, but that could change if your CYA level is different.

    You may want to use 10-12.5% liquid chlorine instead of bleach, you'll need half the amount of jugs on hand....assuming you can find a good price. My local store has a case of 4 gallons 12.5% for $12. That's very cheap and the case keeps the jugs upright in the car. Put the jugs on the floor in the front of the car so your toddler can't get near them. If you can't get a case, buy enough jugs so they don't roll around or fall over, the caps are "vented" and they will spill if they tip.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    My local store has a case of 4 gallons 12.5% for $12.
    FPM, If your near a Great Escape store they have been selling a case of 4 gallons 12.5% for $9. I've made a few trip's.

    http://www.shopthegreatescape.com/locator.php
    Bob
    18,500 gal IG Vinyl pool, 300lb sand filter/1.5 hp pump, 925V Hayward Navigator Pool Cleaner,
    192 sq ft solar heat, TF-100 test kit, BBB for pool chemistry and love it.
    Our pool build slideshow http://s366.photobucket.com/albums/oo10 ... =slideshow

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Excellent tip! I do have one about 20 minutes away.... thanks!
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    ok.... thats crazy!!! I will order the test kit (maybe pay for speedy shipping, lol). there is no great escape around me The "shock" is 78% calcium hypochlorite (min available chlorine 75%) and it says on the container does not cause overstabilization. I have tested the cya and the store has tested the cya. I actually have a decent person in my pool store. ofr example, she tried to talk me out of the revive, lol and said just keep hitting the shock and brush brush brush (I have left the polaris on constantly) I will go back to the bleach as soon as I can use more reasonable amounts. I went to the shcok only after I was needing to put so many in a day

    as far as the amount of chlorine I have been keeping in is it possible that 7 jugs of chlorine only moved my water 1-2 ppm? I am thinking something is off in my test kit. I have been adding 100 ounces of the "shock" 2x-3x a day. the shock bottle says 6-16 ounces raises 10,000 gall 5 to 10 ppm. how am I only seeing 2 or 3 ppm raise?

    I am going to go out to add more. I guess I will just do my best to keep the chlorine as high as I can till the test kit comes.... thanks!
    ------------------
    Setup in 2007
    30,000 Gallon Rectangle
    Sand Filter & Polaris 360

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    The test kit comes fed ex automatically.

    You don't say your current FC level. Because your kit only tests up to 5, you could be higher than 5 and not know that.

    You also need to know your CH level now, because too much cal-hypo and you're CH level could get too high.

    Your signature doesn't list if this a vinyl or plaster pool, please add that information to the sig.

    You need to use the Pool Calculator to determine how much cal-hypo to add, don't use the dosing amounts on the package.

    If the Cal-hypo is 73% (I've not seen 78%) then 61 ounces should raise your FC to 16, if your current FC is 5.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    SW,
    as far as the amount of chlorine I have been keeping in is it possible that 7 jugs of chlorine only moved my water 1-2 ppm?
    No. It moved it much higher, but the algae in your pool quickly consumed it bringing it back down.

    Chlorine kills algae but it is consumed in the process. You are killing some algae, but you are not killing it all and it simply grows back to it's former level.

    You are in a never ending cycle of killing a little algae, letting it grow back, killing a little algae, letting it grow back.

    You must hold the chlorine at very high levels by constantly replenishing it possibly for several days and you will then kill all the algae.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Also, I didn't see any Calcium Hardness (CH) reading except your "CA" of "good". If your CH is higher (300 or more), then your shocking with Cal-Hypo can increase the CH level eventually leading to cloudiness or even scaling. For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases CH by 7 ppm. It is true that Cal-Hypo does not lead to overstabilization because it does not increase Cyanuric Acid (CYA), but it DOES increase CH. Chlorinating liquid or bleach do not increase CYA nor CH which is why these are the normally recommended sources of chlorine on this forum.

    When shocking the pool with higher levels of chlorine, you need to hit the pool hard with high levels that are maintained. Initially, algae will consume a lot of chlorine more quickly so repeated additions of chlorine are needed, but over time they become less frequent as the algae gets killed and removed. The articles on Defeating Algae and the more detailed one on Shocking Your Pool should be clear about this. If they are not, please suggest some improved wording so we can make this crystal clear for others.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    hey... so I thought I would take my water to the pool store to get a round of testing until my kit comes. here is what they gave me:

    FC = 5.0
    TC = 5.0
    pH = 7.6
    Ca Hardness = 332
    TA = 82
    CYA = 8
    copper = 0
    iron = 0

    WTH!!!! that is not at ALL what I was getting for alkalinity and if my CYA is that low no friggin wonder I am losing FC I ran out of my CYA liquid test dropper thing so I haven't tested since I did the vacuuming to waste and refilling etc. so that makes sense. I have some stabilizer I can throw in but I will buy more with my test kit.

    @chem geek the instructions make it very clear that you need to keep the level up.... however, as I only read them last night, I was unaware prior and I could not figure out how the heck people were testing levels higher then 5 and wondered if my 5 was actually 50 or something weird. thats why I asked. this is my first summer trying this on my own so give a little grace to the newbie. it is very freeing to feel like I am understanding but I know I have a ways to go.

    it would seem the calcium did in fact increase. I will head to the store and bring back another truck full of bleach and use only that for awhile again. now that I think we are on the other side of it I am willing to tackle the bleach again. oh I forgot to say, the reason I feel we are on the other end is that when I went to bed last night my FC was 5 and now 14 hours later the FC is still saying 5 (I just tested it also while I was swimming, not just at the pool store) so doesn't that mean things are looking up? I will add gads of bleach as soon as I get bleach from the store. and I will re-add every 4 or 5 hours through the weekend. by then my test kit should be here.

    does that seem like a good game plan?
    add cya
    go get bleach
    maintain a high level through the weekend....

    anything I am missing?
    ------------------
    Setup in 2007
    30,000 Gallon Rectangle
    Sand Filter & Polaris 360

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    ordered the kit but there were no chemicals with it... is there a cheap online place to get the chemicals (namely CYA right now). also does anyone know of a place to buy bulk amounts of bleach?

    as I reread through this: much love to chem geek... I didnt mean to come off short. this is just overwhelming when money is tight. I also noticed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    You may want to use 10-12.5% liquid chlorine instead of bleach, you'll need half the amount of jugs on hand....assuming you can find a good price. My local store has a case of 4 gallons 12.5% for $12. That's very cheap and the case keeps the jugs upright in the car.
    I am unaware of liquid chlorine. where can I buy this. you reference "local store" is this grocery? home improvement? or pool store? and thanks every one so much. this site has been such a huge change in our lives this year. I am really am grateful
    ------------------
    Setup in 2007
    30,000 Gallon Rectangle
    Sand Filter & Polaris 360

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    anything I am missing?
    If you have reason to believe your CYA should be higher, I would not add any more until you can confirm the pool store's results. Pool Stores are awful at testing and those test results came from a strip.....the very worst kind of testing. Wait until you get your own kit and do your own testing......you'll be much more accurate.

    Walmart/Home Depot/Lowes or any pool store is the best place to buy CYA.

    Sam's or Costco's, etc are normally the best places to buy bleach. 12% chlorine is sometimes a little cheaper and sometimes not. Some pool stores have it but it's quite a bit harder to find than bleach.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Pool stores sell the strong stuff, but not everywhere. $3 a jug is a good price for that strength.

    I agree, don't add CYA till you confirm with your own test kit what the level really is.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    ok... I went out and bought cya (and told the store clerk all about your site, lol) but I will wait till the test kit comes. i ordered it so...

    I did want to say, btw my pool store doesnt test strips. they have a machine and they fill several vials with your pools water (each vial turns a different color) and then they put it in something and hit a button. the computer reads the level and prints out a report. we dont have a Leslies or anything here. my "pool store" is actually the family that put my pool in. they have sell everything here (small town )

    I added several more gallons of bleach and will add again tonight.

    am I right to assume if I am holding the bleach through the night it means we are kind of over the bend? not time to quit but at least winning? the pool really is a lovely color now

    also, I am still wondering about the liquid chlorine. where do you buy that? I didnt see that while I was shopping.

    thanks again
    ------------------
    Setup in 2007
    30,000 Gallon Rectangle
    Sand Filter & Polaris 360

  17. Back To Top    #17
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Until you get the FAS-DPD test, you won't know if your FC is holding overnight.

    If that Pool Store is the only one and they don't carry liquid chlorine, you may not be able to find it.

    The large Wal-mart jugs of 6% for $2.54 is a good price. Do you have a Wal-mart? The also sometimes have the 10% in the pool deparment - it's sold in a 2 jug box, it's brown.

    Unfortunately their fancy-testing machine isn't always accurate either. Some pool stores are good, others - well, not so much.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    Until you get the FAS-DPD test, you won't know if your FC is holding overnight.

    If that Pool Store is the only one and they don't carry liquid chlorine, you may not be able to find it.

    The large Wal-mart jugs of 6% for $2.54 is a good price. Do you have a Wal-mart? The also sometimes have the 10% in the pool deparment - it's sold in a 2 jug box, it's brown.

    Unfortunately their fancy-testing machine isn't always accurate either. Some pool stores are good, others - well, not so much.
    ok... thanks.... you're awesome
    ------------------
    Setup in 2007
    30,000 Gallon Rectangle
    Sand Filter & Polaris 360

  19. Back To Top    #19
    Ohm_Boy's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    when I went to bed last night my FC was 5 and now 14 hours later the FC is still saying 5 (I just tested it also while I was swimming, not just at the pool store) so doesn't that mean things are looking up?
    Just to interject... with a test kit that can only measure up to 5, you really cannot draw any conclusion from this result. It COULD mean that your FC held at 5, or it COULD mean that your FC went from 10 to 5, or from 20 to 12 or from a Bazillion to 5.5... all of these levels (except MAYBE the bazillion) would read as 5. This is why everyone here recommends the TFTestkit.
    [center:1kpalu48]Helpful Links: Pool School | CYA/Chlorine Chart | Pool Calculator[/center:1kpalu48]

  20. Back To Top    #20
    amjohn's Avatar
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    Re: $600 this month..... HELP!!!

    You might consider some scum balls for the suntan oil issue. We have to use lots of sunscreen (the sun is brutal in Texas), and then we also seem to have a lot of natural "scum" in the air and ground -we live in the country, on a rock drive coming from an oiltop road, and our "dirt" is actually a greasy black clay.
    The scum balls are sponge balls with a slightly fuzzy cover. We keep two in the pool at all times, just let them float around, and we can see them picking up the oils and scuzzy stuff from the surface when the light is right. I get mine here: http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Chemicals ... Scum-Ball/
    though I have seen them at Lowes and Home Depot in the pool section.
    I wash mine out with Dawn dishsoap when they get really bad- 2 will last about 6 months with about 3 washings (every other month roughly)
    28 ft round Doughboy Sand Dollar II AGP, Aug 2008: 4 ft shallow, 6ft deep end: 24K gal approx Hayward Power-Flo Matrix
    1&1/2-HP 2-SPD Pump, Hayward 27-Inch Sand Filter with a little DE -(2) 4ftx20ft Solar Bear AGP Panels w/ Goldline auto-controller, 50ppm Borates And some day, maybe this year, a DECK!!!

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