New Construction: Cathedral City CA

[Dirk]

Remember, you'll be emptying the pool soon, 100%. So using pucks is a good solution for you, because you don't have the normal concerns about doing so. Whatever the pucks do to your CYA level won't really matter. You'll come back, measure your CYA level, and use the CYA/FC chart to reestablish your FC level for, what, a month or so. Then you'll be getting "brand new water." So puck away. An elevated CYA level might even help with your current FC loss issues, for that last month or so. I seem to recall some in the southern states run their non-swg pools about CYA50 to help with all the sun, anyway. Does that extra CYA sound right, Kim? Marty?

Whatever pucks you have left over, you can use to both chlorinate and add CYA after you get your new surface and new water. You can use solid CYA the first month to get you up to CYA30 or so, then use the pucks to gradually raise your CYA to SWG level, even though you won't have salt yet. With a little effort and some PoolMath, you'll reach your CYA of 70-80 right about the time you'll be adding salt.

 

[kimkats]

Nothing left for me to say...............THANKS!

I would dose the FC to SLAM level on the morning you leave to give you that little extra protection. If you use the pucks you may not need your neighbor to come over at all! I was gone Sun-Thurs but did not to a thing to the pool until Sat due to grass needing cut, clothes washed, etc. and the pool was fine.

Kim

 

[Yorker]

Marty, Dirk & Kim - Ya'll have lightened the weight on my shoulders. Looking forward to visiting relatives in Alaska and sure I'll be happy to return to good'ol desert heat.

THANKS

 

[Yorker]

Hi All!

Back from vacation, and the full chip-out is happening as I type. The drain was late yesterday, and I had hoped to attack the waterline tile calcium buildup on our 5 month old pool. I read on the site that a 5:1 (water:14.5% MA ) was the proper strength. I used the ruff side of a dish scrub pad, scrubbed real hard and it seemed to help a lot, until it fully dried and see little change. I also tried a higher concentration (3:1) of MA and still nothing.

I'd love to get in after the chip-out and before the new pebble is installed tomorrow or the next day and get the calcium buildup out of there.

Any thoughts as to what I should use? I tried using a pumice stone before we went on vacation but that did little good as well?

Would there be any problem if MA or another chemical drips onto the exposed gunite prior to the pebble being installed?

Thanks in advance,
York

 

[Dirk]

Mine was removed with some sort of sand blasting process, though I don't know what media ("sand") was used. It was in the $400 range. Mine was done after the chipout and before the plaster. I'm guessing that if there was a chemical solution available, especially if MA worked with some elbow grease, that that would be the go to method.

I was told the blasting could be done with water in the pool. They vacuum up the media after it settles on the bottom. Seems like now's the time, though. Is there any wiggle room in the plaster schedule, to delay a day while you get some blasting done? I seem to remember it only took them a couple hours. My plaster company's crew did the blasting, they had the equipment. Can your plasterer do it?

Does anybody else here have a recipe/method for removing this calcium line that isn't blasting?

 

[mknauss]

Dilute MA. Which you have done.

And with the water we have here in the desert, you will have water line scale buildup nearly immediately. The evaporation rate is such that you cannot prevent it no matter your chemistry. Using a sealant on the tile and grout can help, but it is not forever.

Kieserite blasting is a method used for removal of scale buildup. Soda blasting is another, but that messes with your water chemistry quite a bit.

 

[Yorker]

Thanks Dirk & Marty,

Sounds like I will need to factor in an annual Kieserite blasting. Especially if it can be done with water in the pool and without messing with the chemistry. I'll read up on it. I have a feeling if I ask the PB to have it done he will charge an arm and a leg at this point. I'll talk with the demo/plaster guy before they leave today and see what they will charge and if I can pay them directly. - If not I may wait and have it done after I get the PH out of the loop.

I'll start reading up on Kieserite.

Thanks AGAIN!

 

[Dirk]

I have high CH and TA water, and pretty strong evaporation, and since October not a spec of calcium on my tile. I run a negative CSI. Is scaling that much worse in the south?

I have an autofill, but I'm noticing it doesn't keep a perfect level. It drops down a bit, then fills back up. Also, I have very consistent wind, every day. I'm wondering if a "variable" water level and wind agitation, along with low TA and no CH-creep are contributing factors to my lack of scaling on the tile... By that I mean: is the negative CSI and the constantly moving water level keeping my tile clean?

My tile had a decent layer of scale on it before I took over the pool. So I know the potential is there. I just figured it was the previous pool guy doing a lousy job...

 

[bdavis466]

Was a sequestrant added while the pool was filling? That looks like calcium silicate scale from new plaster and if so, full strength acid will not touch it

 

[Yorker]

Was a sequestrant added while the pool was filling? That looks like calcium silicate scale from new plaster and if so, full strength acid will not touch it

Hi Brian, I have no idea if they did or not. Since we use city water, I read on another thread that sequestrant would probably not be necessary, but still could not hurt. I'll check with the PB before our the new pebble surface is completed and refilled. I also read that it should be added at least 4 hours before any chlorine is introduced.

What about the buildup make s it look like calcium silicate scale?

I did go back and try some pure MA on a couple of tiles with zero success.

Is this the type of sequestrant you're referring to?
https://www.amazon.com/Pool-Mate-1-2550-Mineral-Swimming/dp/B00J3JMF9I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1534376488&sr=8-2&keywords=sequestrant+for+pool

- - - Updated - - -

... My tile had a decent layer of scale on it before I took over the pool. So I know the potential is there. I just figured it was the previous pool guy doing a lousy job...

Dirk, doesn't your soft water help a lot to inhibit scale?

 

[Dirk]

Dirk, doesn't your soft water help a lot to inhibit scale?

I've been giving credit to the soft water fill system, for sure. My understanding is that by maintaining slightly negative CSI, you inhibit scaling. Maintaining my CH at a constant level, without buildup (which is what the softener is doing), is a big part of keeping my CSI where I want it without having to whack out my pH.

I was told by someone to expect scaling at the water line, no matter how good my CSI, because of evaporation. Which is what Marty is saying. It just hasn't happened yet. I was hypothesizing that maybe my pool has a slight advantage over others because the water line doesn't sit still, in one place, all day long (combination of autofill and wind).

 

[Yorker]

So I’m back in Pool School … again

I will ask the PB what type of startup they will do when the pool is filled this time - I imagine what they did may have been closest to the Traditional Start-up the last time. BUT see my [[notes in brackets]].

I know the PB has hired and fired 2 pool service guys since my pool startup. Not sure if their pool service manager will be the person to do the 30 day start up - but he would still be scheduled twice a week anyway.

I’d like to propose to the PB a list of what I will do daily and see if they will give me permission to do that.
Add Chlorine and MA daily.
Brush two times a day, vacuum daily. (do I really need a brush vacuum with a pebble surface?)

Anything else you'd recommend I ask them to allow me to do?

Traditional Start-up
— Circulate the water, add sequestrant. Run pump 24 hours a day for first week.
[[ not sure if they added sequestrant - If I recall correctly — they told me to run the pump for 12 hours for a few days and maybe they set it to run 24 hrs the first day]]

— Watch the filter pressure and clean the filter as soon as it rises 20% to 25% over the starting pressure and right after vacuuming. The plaster dust might clog the filter quickly so keep an eye on it and clean the filter as needed.
[[ we have a cartridge filter, they never cleaned it until about 35 days after the fill, it was filthy, caked with tons of sand]]

— After the first 48 hours vacuum daily before brushing using a vacuum head with brushes (such as used in vinyl pools) instead of wheels to prevent marring the plaster. Clean filter after vacuuming.
[[ They only came twice a week to vacuum then brush and test/add chemicals ]]

— After 72 hours add the CYA and then the chlorine SLOWLY to gradually bring it to the desired level.
[[ have no idea when they added the stabilizer, I do know they would get the FC to 10 to 14 on Fridays because they would not return until 4 days later. After a doing that, I asked to be allowed to put the liquid chlorine in daily to keep it between 4-7]]

— Continue to brush, vacuum, test water balance, and clean the filter for one to two weeks, or 3 days after you see no plaster dust coming off when you brush.

 

[Dirk]

Just the usual devil's advocate stuff...

IMO the PB bungled the startup. The pool guy assigned to your pool was not up to the task. It's why your pool is being resurfaced. It was pretty badly mismanaged. If it were me, I would not place myself in the position of having to ask "permission" to do anything, but rather I'd dictate the terms and conditions of the next startup. And I'd do so in no uncertain terms.

The plan you outline above is in keeping with standard practices for pool startup. There should be no resistance to it. You are in essence volunteering to do the startup yourself (which I whole-heartedly recommend). Insist on doing so, but explore with the PB what he needs to see in order to maintain your warranty. Allow him (or his "pool guy") to come as often as he likes to inspect the surface, the equipment, the programming, the chemical levels, etc, to confirm, convince himself, that you are doing a proper job, the one you have both agreed to. But under no circumstances allow anyone other than yourself to adjust anything, or dose that pool with anything, or perform any other task. Period. That, for me, would be non-negotiable. Make it clear that you will be managing the startup, and that you'll be doing so in such a way that is consistent with what the PB needs to maintain the warranty. If one of the "inspections" reveals something the pool guy doesn't like, then that will be brought to your attention and discussed. Not acted upon by the pool guy without your express permission.

This is YOUR pool. You have to live with the results of this startup, not the PB. And he's already failed at this once, so he's in no position to say much about anything (IMO). You know him, you know best what approach he'll respond to. But if you present it correctly, and offer him what would make him comfortable, he should have no reason to say no. After all, you're performing all the work and pretty much letting him off the hook for the labor, you're doing everything he would do, but more of it, and still giving him the opportunity to oversee the process. Win-win.

The only thing I'd modify about your plan: I'd run the pump 24-7 at a pretty good clip for at least as long as you're brushing. The brushing suspends the plaster dust in the water column, but it's the pumping and filter that remove it (along with the sequestrant). I'd brush twice a day for a month, regardless of seeing dust or not. I'd test and dose with chlorine and acid, as needed, every day until you fire up the SWG. Handle all the chemicals yourself (LC, MA, CYA, Salt). I like your plan to clean the filter often. This is likely more work than absolutely needed, but extra brushing, extra pumping won't hurt anything and might actually help. Why take the chance of compromising your new surface just to save a few hours of work or $50 of electricity? You only get to do the startup for this batch once. Do it yourself. Do it right.

 

[bdavis466]

Hi Brian, I have no idea if they did or not. Since we use city water, I read on another thread that sequestrant would probably not be necessary, but still could not hurt. I'll check with the PB before our the new pebble surface is completed and refilled. I also read that it should be added at least 4 hours before any chlorine is introduced.

What about the buildup make s it look like calcium silicate scale?

I did go back and try some pure MA on a couple of tiles with zero success.

Is this the type of sequestrant you're referring to?
https://www.amazon.com/Pool-Mate-1-2550-Mineral-Swimming/dp/B00J3JMF9I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1534376488&sr=8-2&keywords=sequestrant+for+pool

I recommend Startup-Tec, BeauTec, of any one of the Jack's Magic products for Startups.

Your fill water is important but there's more to it than that. A newly plastered pool has tons of calcium (carbonate and silicate) that get released into the water while the pool fills and brushed. After just a short period of time filling the pH of the water is already very high which is conducive to scale formation - a sequestrant helps greatly with this. I've seen many on the forum only promote the use of sequestrants if there are metals in the fill water..........well, calcium is actually a metal after all and a sequestrant should be used on every new pool surface fill.

Calcium Carbonate will react with acid by fizzing and dissolving. Calcium Silicate will not be impacted by full strength acid and usually can only be removed by media blasting.

It may be worth giving Jack's Magic a call to discuss your options. They have a very knowledgeable staff and products that work really well.

 

[Dirk]

I used a sequestrant. Day two if I remember right. It was left by the plasterers. I never saw a puff of dust, ever. I attribute that to the acid wash (that's what I was told). But I followed my own advice and brushed twice a day for a month anyway, and ran the pump the whole time... I think I remember turning it down a bit after a couple weeks, but I let it run... Everything else I did "by the book" (the NPC startup card). I checked with the plasterer and he said I could run my Rebel after about a week. Others have different opinions about that. I don't have any visible damage from doing so. I couldn't speak to any long-term affect of doing that. Don't take the chance if you're being ultra careful.

Put dry CYA into a sock into your skimmer. Don't try to add it to your pool. DON'T USE LIQUID! I didn't up the CYA and add salt for SWG until spring (like, 5 months after startup). Completely removed any chance of salt affecting the cure. Consider that. How soon this year will it be too cold to use your SWG? Does the water stay warm all year down your way? If not, you'll be adding chlorine manually anyway. Why add salt? Maybe run your pool as non-swg until it warms up next year.

 

[kimkats]

Show the PB your test kit and how you know how to use it. Tell him you will text him your daily numbers and what you intend to do to adjust them (if needed). We have had several TFP members that did just this and the PB was thrilled when they saw the test kit! They are NOT used to this level of knowledge so were pleasantly surprised.

Your pool=your rules!

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Ha, as usual, others here have to tug on the ol' choke chain leash when I get fired up about contractors!! Kim's idea is excellent. Just message the log from your Pool Math app each day. It'll show the test results and what you dosed (I think it shows dosing, I don't use that anymore, so I couldn't test that). How could he not go for that? He won't even read them after a day or two, I'll bet.

Have a log output printed out for your PB when you show him your kit.

 

[Yorker]

THANKS EVERYONE!

Ok I’m preparing my email to the PB and making my start up todo list. It looks like we may be filling as early as Saturday,but since the PB is nearly impossible to reach on the weekends, I’m asking them to postpone the pebble/acid wash until Monday/Tuesday or Tuesday/Wednesday.

BTW - Here are my fill water tests:
pH: 7.8
FC: 0
CC: 0
TA: 120
CA: 200
CYA: under 20 (not measurable)
Salt: 200
CSI: .33
Temp: 82

After closer review, it seems that the TFP’s Pool school Traditional Start-up is missing a number of things, such as when to start adding MA or Chlorine. It says nothing about brushing or vacuuming until day 3… is that right?

I wrote to the people at Jack’s Magic and they recommended to use their “TheMagenta Stuff” sequestrant. Jack’s Magic also provided a more detailed Start-Up to dolist, see below. [[my notes/questions are in brackets]]

FILLING DAY
1 — Fill the pool to the specified water level without interruption as rapidly as possible. Place a clean rag on the end of the hose, always placed in the deepest area, to prevent damage to the surface material.

2 — Test the fill water for pH, TA, CH and metals. Record test results.

3 — Start the filtration system immediately when the pool is full.
[[Start 24hr filtration. It seems that there is no brushing and no chemicals added.]]

DAY 1 [[Is the “DAY 1“ the day after the Fill Day?]]
1. Test pH, TA, CH. Record test results.

2. High TA should be adjusted to 80 ppm using Muriatic Acid

3. Low TA should be adjusted to 80 ppm using sodium bicarbonate (Bakingsoda).

4. pH should be reduced to 7.2 to 7.6 adding Muriatic Acid if the TA is already 80-100 ppm.
[[I’m a little confused here. Since my Fill pH is 7.8, on Day 1, I should add MA to get it to 7.2 -7.6 (confirmed by retesting). Then if the 120 TA does not lower to 80,add more MA?]]

5. Brush the entire pool surface thoroughly at least twice daily to remove all plaster dust.

6. Add sequestrant (one quart of The Magenta Stuff™)per 15,000 gallons of water.
[[Since our pool is just under 10,000 I would add 2/3 of a quart]]

7. Operate filtration system continuously for a minimum of 72 hours.
[[I intend to run it continuously for much longer]]

8. DO NOT add chlorine for 48 hours after adding the .

DAY 2
1. Brush pool

2. Test pH, TA, CH and repeat steps of 1stDay except for Step 6.

DAY 3
1. Test pH, TA, CH and repeat 1stDay Steps 1 through 6.
2. Pre-diluted chlorine may now be added to achieve 1.5 to 3 ppm.
[[I was intending my target to be 4 and the range to be 3-7]]

NO SALT SHOULD BE ADDED FOR 28 DAYS.

3. Brush the entire pool surface thoroughly at least twice daily to remove allplaster dust.
[[TFP School recommends that DAY 3 is the first time I should start vacuuming.Do I really need a vacuum brush with a pebble surface?]]

DAY 4 - 281 - Test pH, TA, CH and repeat 1stDay Steps 1-5 every day for 14 days to helppreventthe scaling of the pool surface.

2- Low calcium levels should be adjusted slowly over the 28 day period not to exceed 200 ppm.
[[I assume that calcium is measured as CH. TFP suggests a range of 250-350 fora chlorine pool - I assume I should change this]]

3 - Adjust cyanuric acid levels to 30 to 50 ppm based on the primary sanitizer of the pool (pre-dissolve and add through the skimmer).

DAY 7
If there is any plaster dust remaining - remove it using a brush pool vacuum.

On the 7th, 14th, 21stand 28thday, add 10-12 oz. ofthe magenta stuff™per15,000 gallons of water or add theappropriate amount ofthe blue stuff®tomaintain a level of 15-20ppm.
[[I assume TFP does not recommend this - so I will remove it from my list]]

 

[Dirk]

Compare Jack's startup to this:

https://mmgtx.com/docs/STARTUP-by-NPC.pdf

Looks to be very similar if not identical. Certainly Jack's lifted most of theirs from NPC.

I brushed on Day 1 (which is the day after fill day). No ill effects. Not sure why TFP is different. The NPC card is designed for plaster, so pebble would be even tougher. I think you're OK brushing day 1. No metal bristles, though.

You never need to test fill water for CYA, you'll never find any. It's added to pool water, not city water. Surprised there's no FC in fill water. Once your pool is full and well circulated, test that for your fill water baseline. Don't trust the numbers you just got. What's in your pool is what's important.

Run the meter trick again to confirm your volume.

Sequestrant, CYA, CL and MA. Nothing else.

 

[Yorker]

Thanks Dirk. I saw you referenced the NPC start-up, just had not had a chance to locate it - thanks for the link.

Yes Jack's Magic Start-up is identical - I did a bit of editing to it for what I would present the PB. I'll do the meter thing again, just because the thickness of the plaster and gunite may be slightly different now, but the last time I had to refill the pool (after their required acid wash) my numbers were spot on from the original fill.

Some questions remain though:
1 - The NPC recommends the FC to be between 1.5 to 3 ppm. I was intending to set my target to 4 and the range to be 3-7. Should I change my list to the PB to 3-7 FC?

2 - The NPC recommends the calcium levels should be adjusted slowly over the 28 day period, but not to exceed 200 ppm. I assume that calcium is measured with the CH test. TFP suggests a CH range of 250-350 for a chlorine pool - I assume I should change this on my list to the PB?

3 - Confirming - add sequestrant on day 1, acid on Day 2, chlorine on Day 3 and CYA on Day 5.

4 - Do I really need to purchase a vacuum with brushes for a pebble surface for the first month?

5 - Jack's Magic recommends adding 10-12 oz. of The Magenta Stuff™sequestrant per15,000 gallons of water on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th day. I assume TFP does not recommend this - so should I remove it from my list?

Compare Jack's startup to this:
https://mmgtx.com/docs/STARTUP-by-NPC.pdf
Looks to be very similar if not identical. Certainly Jack's lifted most of theirs from NPC.

I brushed on Day 1 (which is the day after fill day). No ill effects. Not sure why TFP is different. The NPC card is designed for plaster, so pebble would be even tougher. I think you're OK brushing day 1. No metal bristles, though.

You never need to test fill water for CYA, you'll never find any. It's added to pool water, not city water. Surprised there's no FC in fill water. Once your pool is full and well circulated, test that for your fill water baseline. Don't trust the numbers you just got. What's in your pool is what's important.

Run the meter trick again to confirm your volume.

Sequestrant, CYA, CL and MA. Nothing else.