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Thread: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

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    Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Hey folks,

    I'm going to be tearing up my concrete pool deck and replacing it with pavers. While it's torn up I'm going to replace all the underground piping (being that my deep end return line has a leak anyway).

    What is the best type of piping I should use for the replacement? I want one that is most resistant to cracking and freeze/thaw issues (I live in the North East). Regular PVC? Flexible PVC? Some other kind?

    Also I thought I might run a larger pipe, and then run the actual pipes inside the larger one. That way if I develop a crack and need to replace them, I can pull out the old pipe and thread a new one underground without having to tear up much of my new deck. Being that I've never seen this done though, I'm wondering if there's any reason why this wouldn't be a good idea?

    Thanks!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    I would recommend a flexible pipe like kanaflex, I probably wouldn't recommend trying to run a smaller pipe inside of a larger one, first off would be the expense and I'm not sure flex pipe comes in anything much larger than 3". I also like the black pipe that is somewhat rigid and is heated to make it straighten out, it can take a beating. The most important thing when fixing the pipes is when you get everything plumbed check for leaks before filling everything back in with dirt. Also you might want to pick up some cheap sand and lay the sand around the pipes before back filling with the regular dirt (this will make sure there are no sharp rocks laying against the pipe)
    -Kevin
    X-Pert Pool Service
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    X-Pert Pool on Facebook and @XPertPoolServic on Twitter
    22,000 gal / 16' x 32' / Vinyl / Hayward s244t /Pentair SuperFlo 1 hp

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Thanks for the response and the tips! Just to clarify...is the Kanaflex pipe the same as the rigid black pipe or are they two different types of pipe? I'm also reading about this PEX pipe.

    It's amazing how hard it is to find out about the type of piping for pools though...

    Thanks!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Null, I'm about to log off for the night - please bump this tomorrow, I've got some advice I'd like to give before you decide on anything
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Quote Originally Posted by waste
    please bump this tomorrow, I've got some advice I'd like to give before you decide on anything
    *bump* Thanks Waste!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Null, as long as I can keep my eyes open, I'll be there for you

    Your best bet for frost-proofing the lines is black poly, however - it has it's downsides The connections aren't as reliable as pvc, but... pvc is more prone to breaking from freezing.

    IF you properly attach the black poly pipe - it will do you well. I can provide instructions, and others will proffer their input

    Rigid pvc is sometimes hard to get to line up with the existing plumbing and the 'flex pipe' can be eaten by termites or punctured by a sharp rock during the freeze- thaw process that happens each winter

    The barbed connections on the black poly are the largest drawback - you need high quality clamps and fittings

    I believe your best bet is to use schedule 40 rigid pipe and schedule 40 fittings

    Properly prime and glue them and wait the appropriate time before applying pressure to them

    If you need a little help with working with pvc, all you have to do is ask
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    I like the black poly. It's durable, tough, and can take a beatin! But like Waste said, it has to be done right. You have to use barbed fittings, double clamps,a dnfor good measure some sealer that you heat with a torch to set the joint. Done right, it will not go anywhere! Also, depending on how long you run is to the pump, you may not have an underground joint. Only joints i have are at the return/suction at the pool, and above ground at the pump.

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Awesome! Thanks Guys!

    I'll probably start the actual work mid August or so. Now that I know what I need I can start the planning better now and start purchasing the materials. I'll post back with some questions then if I'm unsure of the proper method.

    I'll post pics of the whole process!

    Thanks again!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    I used white flexible PVC, most problems will be with any joints under ground ( elbows on the black pipe are weak! )so you should be able to eliminate all joints except were they terminate. Also I would lay down a layer of sand before the pipe is installed and bury with sand after pressure test. I would not put inside another pipe as regular flow will create some movement and may result in wear damage on outside of pipe after some time. There are many places to buy this pipe I got mine from a local pool builder, did a quick google and found this site http://www.flexpvc.com/

    Good Luck with your reno
    20 X 40, 28000 gal IG cement bottom, steel sides, vinyl liner, Pentair 4X160 pump, sand filter, SWG, Titan heat pump, coluorlogic and fiber optic. concrete-exposed aggregate deck
    1 skimmer, main drain, 4 returns ( 2 in stairs ) JEWEL LIKE WATER thanks to TFP!

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Quote Originally Posted by NullQwerty
    Thanks for the response and the tips! Just to clarify...is the Kanaflex pipe the same as the rigid black pipe or are they two different types of pipe? I'm also reading about this PEX pipe.

    It's amazing how hard it is to find out about the type of piping for pools though...

    Thanks!
    Kanaflex is a tan color that can use glue fittings or barbed fittings
    -Kevin
    X-Pert Pool Service
    x-pertpool.com
    X-Pert Pool on Facebook and @XPertPoolServic on Twitter
    22,000 gal / 16' x 32' / Vinyl / Hayward s244t /Pentair SuperFlo 1 hp

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Sharp rocks can puncture even black pipe, another issue you might want to consider is the bend radius. Leaks can form at joints and you will probably have more joints with a less flexible black poly pipe than a flex pipe.
    -Kevin
    X-Pert Pool Service
    x-pertpool.com
    X-Pert Pool on Facebook and @XPertPoolServic on Twitter
    22,000 gal / 16' x 32' / Vinyl / Hayward s244t /Pentair SuperFlo 1 hp

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Resurrecting this old thread of mine

    So next week the concrete comes out which means now I've gotta come to a decision on the piping. Putting aside cost factors, here's what I've gathered about these pipes

    1) Poly Pipe - Most frost proof, but compared to the others, it's easier to not do a perfect installation and as such joints can leak in the future
    **Question 1 for this: How easy is it to mess up the installation exactly? Having never worked with it, should I not attempt it?
    **Question 2 for this: Is anyone aware of any tutorial installation videos? I wasn't able to find any.
    **Question 3 for this: Is it true you don't even have to drain it or add anti-freeze during closing?

    2) Flex Pipe - Not as frost proof as Poly Pipe, but quicker install and arguably more reliable than Rigid PVC due to there being little to no joints. EDIT: Gotta rule this one out due to the termite issues it has. Don't want to risk it.

    3) Rigid PVC - Not as frost proof as Poly Pipe, but other than being a little annoying, it's easy as heck to work with.
    **Question 1 for this: How frost proof is it? I mean, assuming I blow it out with a shop vac and add some antifreeze, can I assume a 20 year life?
    **Question 2 for this: Will all those 90 degree turns have a significant negative impact on my water flow?
    **Question 3 for this: Is all rigid PVC the same? Should I just go to Home Depot/Lowes and grab what they got, or are there thicker ones out there that would be more reliable for me?

    Thanks as always everyone!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Null,

    Question 2 for this: Will all those 90 degree turns have a significant negative impact on my water flow?
    If you're concerned about the pressure drop due to sharp 90 degree elbows, you could always install 90 degree sweep elbows.
    http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52...ow-307967.aspx

    If you're not concerned about different colors of PVC pipe, you could always get an even larger sweep radius by using the 90 degree sweep elbows used with the gray electrical PVC conduit.
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Thanks Titanium! I'm not necessarily concerned...more asking if I should be concerned. But if I go with the rigid, I'll be sure to go with the sweeps like you posted.

    Thanks!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    As for #3, the impact of 90s vs swept 90s isn't all that significant compared to the rest of the plumbing. I once calculated for my plumbing if I had replaced 10 90s with 10 swept 90s, the flow rate would increase by only 1%. However, if I had upsized the pipe by one size, the flow rate would have gone up by 15%. The point is that pipe diameter is much more important than what type of fittings you use so you may want to consider that instead. BTW, what size pipe were you planning on using and how many runs? Also, what size pump do you have?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    The point is that pipe diameter is much more important than what type of fittings you use so you may want to consider that instead. BTW, what size pipe were you planning on using and how many runs? Also, what size pump do you have?
    Funny you should ask that as I was just researching the best pipe size to use, so I'd love to hear input! I had originally assumed 1 1/2" because that's the size of the fittings, but if 2" is better for my set up than I'd certainly go for that (if there's no other drawbacks).

    My setup:
    18 X 36 IG Vinyl
    ~24,000 gallons
    2 return lines (1 in deep end and 1 in shallow)
    1 skimmer
    No other lines (and no main drain).
    1 HP Hayward Super Pump

    However, I actually have a 3rd return line next to the skimmer that wasn't currently in use. Waste and some others were saying that it may have been for a cleaner, but it may make sense to hook it up as a 3rd return.

    The length of the lines range from ~20' to ~40'.

    Are 2" lines recommended?

    Thanks!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

  17. Back To Top    #17
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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Given that you have only one suction line, I would definitely go with 2" minimum with that. Given your pump size, you probably don't need to go bigger than that but bigger is always better on the suction side.

    As long as you have at least 2 runs pool to pad for the return, you can stick with 1.5" . If you decide to go with only one run, then I would go with 2".
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    Given that you have only one suction line, I would definitely go with 2" minimum with that. Given your pump size, you probably don't need to go bigger than that but bigger is always better on the suction side.

    As long as you have at least 2 runs pool to pad for the return, you can stick with 1.5" . If you decide to go with only one run, then I would go with 2".
    Thanks! Is that the ideal situation then? 2" on the suction and 1.5" on the returns? I mean, if ideal is 2" all around I'd do that, or if it's 2.5" on suction and 2" on the returns I'd do that, or even 2.5" all around. Whatever is best!
    18 X 36 In-Ground Vinyl Pool, Hayward 1 HP SuperPump, Hayward SP270T 350lb Sand Filter, CompuPool CPSC48 Salt Chlorine Generator, Hayward H400FDN 400 BTU Natural Gas Heater, 2 returns, 1 skimmer, No Main Drain

  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    I have 2 1/2" piping. The draw back is that you can't go to a box store for pipe and fittings.
    IG 18x36 oval vinyl, Spill over spa, Northstar 2hp-2spd, 2.5" piping, S310T 500lb Sand filter, 400k gas heater, AutoPilot SWCG
    http://www.tftestkits.net/

  20. Back To Top    #20
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    Re: Replacing Pipes...What Should I Use?

    Bigger pipe will give you better performance in general but there are diminishing returns. Also, if the operating point is too far to the right on the head curve, the pump will usually be quite noisy.

    Here are some scnearios based upon 30' runs and 2 returns (no heater):

    1.5" suction/1.5" pad/1.5" return - 52 GPM @ 42' of head
    2.0" suction/2.0" pad/1.5" return - 67 GPM @ 28' of head
    2.0" suction/2.0" pad/2.0" return - 70 GPM @ 24' of head
    2.5" suction/2.0" pad/2.0" return - 73 GPM @ 21' of head

    As you can see the biggest jump in performance is with the 2" suction & pad so definitely worth doing. Also the last scenario is close to the maximum specified flow rate of the pump so it would probably be pretty noisy. Sometimes too little head loss can be bad as well. I would probably be more inclined to go with scenario #2 so as to keep the operating point closer to the middle of the head curve. Also, double check your filter requirements since you don't want to exceed the flow rate for that.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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