Disable ORP for a better performance outcome?

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Lazyman

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Mar 25, 2009
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learthur said:
don't take this the wrong way but I think you are pursuing a pathway that exceeds your technical knowledge.

For you I would recommend you not do ORP control, however pH control would serve you well.

Making ORP work has a lot of variables in it that the average pool owner shouldn't and most won't desire to deal with.

Yes ORP works for me , but there are lots of reasons why which I don't have the time to explain. There is a lot of research and undiscovered science related to ORP use in swimming pools. I enjoy studing it with my test pool, but this is not for most people.
please focus on pH control.

Good luck

Lee
Click to expand...


The above wasn't referring to me, but I'll assume it would definitely go for anyone who is a novice at this pool stuff.

I have a different system than the OP, but I would guess that all orp sensors behave the same. I have a Pool Pilot Total Control swg with orp and ph sensors. I'm reading these threads, trying to figure out which levels would be best for optimal performance and ease of use of the system. I, too, was confused with the cya level suggestions, then the change in levels after reporting that an orp was being used.

I do understand now that I need <50 cya and that my cell would work longer/harder (FC level at 3?). Other than that, should I really try and disable it for a better performance outcome? Do I have a choice? Not sure if that's possible with the Total Control from Pool Pilot. If I ended up doing that, would disabling it entail removing the orp sensor or just "disabling" it from the menu?

Just to add... I have a small 18' round Ag pool that will not really need much to get the desired levels up with this system. Maybe the cell working harder won't be too bad in this case. The cell is size 48 btw.

Should i shoot for 40 cya and 3 FC? I've been replacing pool water since I put in too much cya for the other swg chart without the orp sensor.

Good info! I just have to read more.

Thank you.
 
With the AutoPilot Total Control system it is very simple to switch it into PH automation and chlorine run by a percentage mode, as with any other SWG. So you have a choice of both modes, and can change your mind latter if you need to (though CYA levels will need to be adjusted).

ORP automation has the most value in indoor pools or when the bather load changes dramatically from day to day. In either case, the amount of chlorine you need varies from day to day quite significantly, and ORP takes care of that for you.

Standard percentage automation is often best in a typical outdoor residential pool, where the primary use of chlorine is loss to sunlight, which is fairly stable from day to day, and percentage automation works well. The SWG cell will last longer at the higher CYA levels you can use with ORP disabled.

Keep in mind that the ORP sensor costs around $200 and needs to be replaced every other year. Also, ORP systems occasionally fail to work correctly because of conditions in the pool that are difficult to detect in advance and nearly impossible to correct.

I also have an AutoPilot Total Control System. I was forced to disable the ORP sensor because my pool is one of those where the ORP reading does not correspond with chlorine levels in any useful way. After doing that I found out that simple percentage control works really well for outdoor pools with a fairly low bather load. I love the PH automation, and I am quite happy with the simple percentage control (especially with AutoPilot's temperature compensation).
 
Wow, that is a bit disheartening. Thanks for the info, Jason.

The system is running now, but I have no idea how it's working yet. Maybe I'll keep it going like this for as long as I can and possibly switch to 'ph only' in the future. Possibly near future, depending on how things go.

As it stands now, I'm reducing cya levels to make it acceptable for the orp sensor. So, I'll stay on that track for now, if just for that reason alone.

After a bit more reading, it seems that <50 is not even good enough. Possiblt 40 or even 30 cya is suggested. Should I aim for a cya that low? 35 maybe?

Is there a chart for a suggested FC level for that range with orp equipment?

If my cya level is 40, should I aim for FC of 3?

If so, should any of the other readings such as TA change since I've dropped my cya this low?

I'm concerned about using the charts' guidelines in this case. I missed the info about cya levels w/orp automation the first time, and I'm trying not to make the same mistake again for other readings.

Thanks again.
 
Most reliable outdoor ORP operation seems to be with a CYA level around 30, but CYA is difficult to pin down that tightly. I would aim for CYA between 30 and 40. The PH automation requires some PH drift to work correctly, so you want TA around perhaps 80. Other than those two, you follow the usual SWG recommendations.

You need to watch for failure to achieve ORP "lock". If CYA is too high, or you have one of the pools where things don't work, the cell can run constantly and FC levels will just go up and up and up during the day. Usually the cell will turn off for some while at night in this situation. Another, less likely possibility is that the cell may simply turn off and FC levels will fall rapidly. That can happen because of MPS, or a few other chemicals that are not recommended for use with ORP. Watch fairly closely for the first few days. If it starts out working, then it should keep working.
 
OK Thanks. I'll keep it in that range. TA is at around 80 now, so that's good.

PH is a 7.5, up from 7.3 a couple of days ago. It's been holding steady there for 2 days. I love the digital readout! lol

ORP starts out low, then goes higher as the system is running more. It started out "Low- 550 (650)", then climbed up to 630 to 675 range. Now it's back down to 480 or so! It's all over the map now. Maybe that's what you guys are referring to when saying it is not dependable?

I do know that the cya is too high, so I'll keep working on replacing water.

This thing is harder than I thought it would be. Actually, I never thought it would be easy.


2 weeks in, and I'm already running out of cya tests. Ha Ha. Yes, I do test too often. I like to see the performance curve of the cya working. No worries, I already ordered a new set.

Thanks
 
Don't be too concerned about the CYA right now. The CYA levels at which ORP becomes problematic are not absolute. I've run plenty of pools at up to 100 CYA over the years with ORP and had no problems. It is somewhat pool dependent. I can't explain why.

Don't get too caught up in the absolute ORP reading. It's not important for good control, although it can be important for other reasons we can discuss later. What you need is a defined and consistent differential. What I mean by that is if your pH is stable and at FC 3.0 you get 750 then you need to make sure you get a lower ORP by at least 10 mV when your chlorine drops by .5 ppm or when it increases by .5 ppm. If that occurs ORP can work in your pool.

For now, I recommend keeping the system hooked up but track it daily or more frequently if you can. Record the FC and the ORP and the CYA every few days. Purposely raise and lower the setpoint a bit (10-20mV) and track the relationship to FC in your pool. This will give you a good idea of where you need to be, assuming the system will work on your pool. There can be other issues with salt systems that make them incompatible with ORP. Again, it doesn't happen in every pool so let's test yours and find out.

Post the results here and I will take a look at them.

For anyone else following this thread, please don't use these numbers as ORP setpoints for your pool if you are trying to control FC. The relationship in each pool between ORP and FC will be slightly different depending on the pH, the ORP probe used, the age/cleanliness of the probe, CYA level, etc. That's why I stress not to get too wrapped up in absolute numbers...at least initially. You can tell a lot about your water from ORP but you have to remember it is a qualitative measurement, not quantitative like FC.
 
Great!

I've been out all day, but here are the numbers from this morning, followed by the numbers at 4PM. The pump has been running all day, but stopped from 2PM to 345PM when I turned it back on. Maybe I should keep the system running on low speed, which it is on right now, 24/7 for a while? (1.5hp pump) Or maybe I don't want it on too long to overproduce chlorine, which I think may be happening.

8AM
PH 7.5
FC 7
TA 80 - 85
CYA 60 Not sure how this is so high. I've drained a lot of water.

4PM numbers
PH 7.5
FC 8.2
TA 90


Now the ORP reading is 444 (650)

The 650 is the setpoint, I guess. It also says "Low" next to the 444. It was higher than that earlier, and yesterday. I'm sorry, I don't know what the 10mv terms are for. Does that mean to change the set point in the installer menu? Change it from the 650 mark? It hasn't hit 650 for the past 2 days, but it was definitely hiogher than 444, which is the lowest I've seen it.


IS THE WATER SAFE FOR SWIMMING?!? Please advise. My kids (and wife) just went in about 10 minutes ago. The FC might be too high, right? I don't hear screaming yet. Ummm, that's not funny.


FYI The FC was at 3.5 two days ago. I didn't add anything to the pool and it is now at 8. The power level of the swg is at #1. I'm guessing 1 is the lowest. Maybe I should cut back on the hours it is on? I wanted to start and run it a while to get things going first. That's why I'm running it long for now. If I have to, I will run it 24/7 and throw away the timer clips. lol

Thanks for the help.
 
Ahhh, I just read Jason's review (again) of the Total Control system, and see where he had trouble with the orp sensor. So my unit seems to be doing the same thing as his did. My reading is getting lower as chlorine production is going up. That doesn't sound too good. Hmmm.

I have one skimmer and one return and a robotic cleaner. 2" pvc piping throughout. 28gpm flow on low, and very rarely when I switch to high speed it is at 75+ gpm flow. Pressure is <3/low <12/high.
 
Lazyman said:
Great!

I've been out all day, but here are the numbers from this morning, followed by the numbers at 4PM. The pump has been running all day, but stopped from 2PM to 345PM when I turned it back on. Maybe I should keep the system running on low speed, which it is on right now, 24/7 for a while? (1.5hp pump) Or maybe I don't want it on too long to overproduce chlorine, which I think may be happening.

8AM
PH 7.5
FC 7
TA 80 - 85
CYA 60 Not sure how this is so high. I've drained a lot of water.

4PM numbers
PH 7.5
FC 8.2
TA 90


Now the ORP reading is 444 (650)

The 650 is the setpoint, I guess. It also says "Low" next to the 444. It was higher than that earlier, and yesterday. I'm sorry, I don't know what the 10mv terms are for. Does that mean to change the set point in the installer menu? Change it from the 650 mark? It hasn't hit 650 for the past 2 days, but it was definitely hiogher than 444, which is the lowest I've seen it.


IS THE WATER SAFE FOR SWIMMING?!? Please advise. My kids (and wife) just went in about 10 minutes ago. The FC might be too high, right? I don't hear screaming yet. Ummm, that's not funny.


FYI The FC was at 3.5 two days ago. I didn't add anything to the pool and it is now at 8. The power level of the swg is at #1. I'm guessing 1 is the lowest. Maybe I should cut back on the hours it is on? I wanted to start and run it a while to get things going first. That's why I'm running it long for now. If I have to, I will run it 24/7 and throw away the timer clips. lol

Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

That means you've got a 444 mV (ORP) reading with 7.5 pH and 60 ppm CYA. That ORP reading is too low for that level of FC and it doesn't sound like it is changing. Do you have good flow in your flow cell (the clear plastic chamber the probes are in)...are the valves open?

If so, let's try to determine of that 444 mV is truly a representative sample of your water. Remove the ORP probe from the flow cell and put it in a cup of water from the pool while leaving it connected to the controller (close flow cell valves when you do this to prevent water spraying out). See if the display changes. If it doesn't, then add a few drops of acid to the water in the cup and see if it changes. Post back what happens.
 
Lazyman said:
Ahhh, I just read Jason's review (again) of the Total Control system, and see where he had trouble with the orp sensor. So my unit seems to be doing the same thing as his did. My reading is getting lower as chlorine production is going up. That doesn't sound too good. Hmmm.

I have one skimmer and one return and a robotic cleaner. 2" pvc piping throughout. 28gpm flow on low, and very rarely when I switch to high speed it is at 75+ gpm flow. Pressure is <3/low <12/high.
Click to expand...


I don't know what troubleshooting Jason went through but don't throw in the towel just yet...let's run a few tests and see if we can nail it down.
 

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It's raining now, maybe tomorrow I will get a chance and test that.

I went out to try it but it was just too much. I did see that I had a small air bubble in the clear flow tube area. Switching to high speed took care of that. I was going to bleed the air out of the filter casing but it seemed to have went away on high speed.

Since then, my orp reading is now climbing to 486 now. (From 444 earlier). I'm not sure if it has to stay in high speed, but I'll keep it there for a while and gauge the orp reading for a bit. I keep going in and out of the rain to view it. lol I need those remote cameras to stick out there and read it from my house. Signed, "lazyman". lol

thanks

PS High speed seems to much for this 7500 gallon pool. I never intended it to function like this. It was the best option for me at the time of purchase. For now I'll use it like this.
 
Yes, it is safe to swim. FC is in the normal range for your CYA level.

There is a lot of entertaining chemistry to be learned here. I worked on my system for weeks, logged FC and ORP levels every half hour for days at a time, tried various adjustments to the chemistry, did the cup test a few times, reconfigured all my returns, played with sequestrant, raised and lowered the CYA level, verified that the pool was actually bonded, did endless research, and I had a lot of fun doing all that. Then again that may not be your thing.

If you want to keep things simple, you should either turn off ORP automation all together, or lower CYA into the 30s before trying to get the ORP automation to work correctly. If you would rather play with your really expensive chemistry set, I have some cool things you can try that Aquaman95 hasn't mentioned just yet.
 
Jason, believe me, I value your opinions greatly! I am still siphoning water from the pool to bring down cya. I just took out the hoses so I could keep the pump running while checking this other stuff. I do hear what you're saying, but will try this out first before I dump the orp. I'm certainly not going to try all the things you've done, as they seem extensive, but like everyone says, every pool is different. There are surely others who have a PP TC and use orp outdoors, right? Maybe that should be another thread title? lol

The line to the skimmer was getting too close. I'll get there sooner or later. It's raining on and off, so maybe I don't need to refill so much. Ha.

OK The orp reading started going down again on high speed, so that is a lost cause.

One important thing that is confusing me.

WHERE does the orp sensor plug into on the piping? Is it on the manifold or the pipe next to the pump? The manual is confusing. I'm trying to find out which one to disassemble and test in the cup.
 
Wow, the calculator says 30 to 50% of the pool water must be replaced. Ouch.

If I'm done testing for tonight, I'll just start siphoning again.

Thanks guys!
 
Lazyman said:
My PH sensor is connected to the manifold. Is that right? The orp is connected to the suction side of the pipe.
Click to expand...

They should both be in a clear plastic flow cell hidden by one of the boxes. Flexible tubing runs water in a bypass loop from the manifold through the flow cell and across the probes and then back to the suction side of the pump. The probes themselves should be labeled.
 
Aquaman95 said:
Lazyman said:
My PH sensor is connected to the manifold. Is that right? The orp is connected to the suction side of the pipe.
Click to expand...

They should both be in a clear plastic flow cell hidden by one of the boxes. Flexible tubing runs water in a bypass loop from the manifold through the flow cell and across the probes and then back to the suction side of the pump. The probes themselves should be labeled.
Click to expand...


Yes, that's how it's going. I think I misunderstood and got confused along the way. The sensors along the top of the controller have no correlation with the hoses under them that go to the pvc pool piping. I had thought they did.

All is well. I think?

Anyway, the water is getting drained and hopefully filled by tomorrow. Tomorrow is another day. Thanks guys. I have much appreciation for extensive knowledge of any trade.

I'll give this a try since it's already installed and running. If it doesn't work, I'll ditch it.
 
OK I'm almost done REfilling the pool water. I'll check cya tomorrow. I don't think my neighbors want someone looking around in the middle of the night with a flashlight.

I just remember something that may be important. When I turned on the system 2 days ago, Or was it yesterday? Seems forever. Anyway, I got an error message of "Error! Purifier off", "Error Acid off", "Check flow".

Checked everything three times, called tech support and they ultimately guided me through the installer menu to toggle between I think it was "Flow sensor.... "ON or"OFF", not sure the exact term, but it was something that was able to be turned on or off. Or maybe "orp flow" "On" or "off". That is what seemed to have fixed the Error message.

So, did I turn something off in order to fix this problem but create another problem? Most likely I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I DID change something in the menu after having the error messages. If that was the correct thing to do ultimately, I don't know.

Going to bed before midnight. thanks.




I hope cya is at least under 40 tomorrow.
 
Lazyman said:
OK I'm almost done REfilling the pool water. I'll check cya tomorrow. I don't think my neighbors want someone looking around in the middle of the night with a flashlight.

I just remember something that may be important. When I turned on the system 2 days ago, Or was it yesterday? Seems forever. Anyway, I got an error message of "Error! Purifier off", "Error Acid off", "Check flow".

Checked everything three times, called tech support and they ultimately guided me through the installer menu to toggle between I think it was "Flow sensor.... "ON or"OFF", not sure the exact term, but it was something that was able to be turned on or off. Or maybe "orp flow" "On" or "off". That is what seemed to have fixed the Error message.

So, did I turn something off in order to fix this problem but create another problem? Most likely I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I DID change something in the menu after having the error messages. If that was the correct thing to do ultimately, I don't know.

Going to bed before midnight. thanks.




I hope cya is at least under 40 tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Interesting. That's one of the things I was concerned about - trying to verify that you had good flow in the flow cell where the ORP and pH sensors are. If you don't have good flow there, then the sensors aren't getting a representative sample of water from the pool. The water can stay trapped in the flow cell and as you add chlorine the ORP doesn't go up accordingly.

There is a flow sensor in the flow cell that will generate the message you got if you are not getting flow in the flow cell. I'd be surprised if there is a way to disable it and I can't find the menu option to do it in the manual they have online.

Page 43 in the Owner's manual shows how to test for low floe in the flow cell (basically shut off the inlet valve to the flow cell and see if you get the message that you got). You should get that message if you have low flow in the flow cell which you would have if you shut that valve off. Try turning off the inlet valve to the flow cell and see if it generates a warning message. That should tell us whether it's been disabled.
 
CYA at 50. Not enough water replaced! Arghhh!

OK These are the numbers. Salt went down to 2500 from 3200. The display shows 2900 and dropping, so it seems to be averaging it down fine.

FC 8.5 Wow, maybe my tap water has a lot of chlorine in it, or the swg has made some more during the latter hours yesterday after I tested last.

TA 90

I did the flow test on the unit. It did not show an error. I can see the float go up and down as I turn the valve. The hoses also move quite a bit from the pressure, so it seems to be working fine.

I went inot the installer menu like I was instructed the other day. I did see the options after system set up as "total control" and following that it had "No flow" where you can click select, and "Has flow" where you can select. It was on "No flow", so I switched it to "Has flow" and I got the original error message from day one where I called tech support for assistance.

So they basically selected "no flow" to make the unit stop giving the error message. Again, not sure if that's right or not, but it seems to be what has happened.

I'll siphon some more.

Maybe I should add some salt because i know it needs it. Why wait until it calls for it. Even a small amount will help.

Or, I could wait and see what it tells me to add. I'm at 2500ppm and the display says 2900 and dropping.

Good morning.
 

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