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Thread: Should I add a metal agent?

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    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Should I add a metal agent?

    Hey everyone.

    I was finally able to vacuum yesterday. I backwashed well and drained approx 6" of water. Went today and bought LOTS of bleach and had my water tested at the pool store, mostly to check the metals and cya. My test kit was shipped yesterday so I am hoping it will be here mon or tues. I think I know what to do but want to run it by the experts!! I plan to add bleach based on my current cya and fc to bring it up to at least 5, till I get my kit, and then test, including an overnight fc loss, and then shock if my fc loss is >1ppm. Correct?

    Anyhow, my numbers from the store are:

    FC 0.23
    TC 0.47
    PH 7.52
    TA 80
    CYA 59
    Iron 0
    Copper 0.35

    If you beleave their numbers I was able to get rid of the iron (.76) from last week and some of the copper (down from 0.57).
    My question is, I have a bought a metal sequestering agent and it has the phosphonic acid as jason mentioned, but it states to not shock within 7 days of using it. Since anything > 0.3 is a problem, should I use it and not shock for a week? If I do that my probable existing algae will have taken over by then!!

    Or, I could drain some more and hope to get rid of the rest of it. Truthfully yesterday I did not see any type of a waterline/stain when I drained. If I drain more I will probably need to bring my ta and ph up some.

    Any suggestions??
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    The pool store water test results don't inspire any confidence at all. Metal levels simply don't change like that.

    With a CYA of 60ish, you want to raise FC to around 10 right away. If the water is clear and you keep the FC levels reasonable, there shouldn't be any need to shock. If you already have algae, then you need to take care of that first and then add the sequestrant.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Thanks jason for the reply. But can you tell me why a fc of 10? Just curious. The cya/chlorine chart says 7 target. Are you allowing for extra based on me saying I have a probable algae problem?

    My water is not clear. It is that blue/grey (can't see the bottom) that we talked about is probable algae not metals.

    Thanks again for your help.
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Raising FC to 10 is for a pool that has been ignored a couple of days, but still has basically clean water. I forgot about what has gone before (apparently I have been reading too many posts recently to keep track of everything).

    Getting back up to speed on what has gone before, you need to do the full shock the pool process. To do that, it might be best to wait for your test kit to arrive.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Sure hope I didn't mess up adding bleach. It is the regular bleach (great value). I added 3 96oz jugs, not even the whole 302oz that the pool calculator recommends, poured each one over the return, taking approx 1 min for each jug and some time in between jugs and shortly thereafter I notice my liner below the water line is a different color!! You can see it easily with the water moving. I tested this am before I took the sample to the pool store with the strips and it registered 1, and they got 0.47 and I had not added anything since tuesday.

    Really am unsure now about shocking to fc of 24!
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Are you unsure because you are afraid of the chlorine level?

    If this is algae, and the pool store numbers are accurate, your FC level is probably already much lower than when you added the bleach, the algae having consumed it rapidly.

    Prolonged, extremely high FC levels can cause a liner to fade - not one time additions of bleach at the level you dosed to. This could be a reaction to the copper, making the liner look a funny color. I doubt the liner has actually changed color from the bleach addition, if that is your concern?

    Chlorine bleach reacts in essentially the same way to oxidize organic matter as chlorine pucks. You haven't harmed anything by adding that amount of bleach.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    No, not afraid of the chlorine levels, just damaging my liner. This is only the second year. The color below it is lighter, almost a greenish/yellow tint, and I do have to say that when splashing water up higher than the water line it did not turn colors.
    It is not a white line, just lighter in color. Of course this was only approx 30 min later.

    I did add correctly, didn't I?

    Just afraid that after all the time, research, and plenty of money spent, if I ever do get my water clear my pool will look like ****.

    Tested with strips after about 30 min and color turned the darkest, 10.

    Guess I'll wait till morning and see.
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    You added correctly, and one dose of chlorine did not damage your liner.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Think we found the problem!!

    Topics Merged for Consistency.

    The husband got home last night after being on the road for 2 weeks and I gave him the latest update on the pool. He mentioned draining it to calm my fears that the chlorine was reacting with the copper. (although I could not figure out why when I just shocked earlier this week). I told him not to since the fc was 10. He laughed at me with the amt of bleach I added.

    I awoke this am to find he had drained about 2 ft! Tested the water and it was still very high on the strips. Had him stop draining and thats when he told me he found the plug still in the bottom line feed to the filter, (don't know the exact term). We are now refilling and are just below the skimmer. But I bet that will make alot of difference in filtering!!

    I have been brushing the sides and bottom, anything to move the water around till we can filter. And no, the liner appears fine this am. I can tell a difference already in the color of the water. This should take care of my copper problem although I will have it retested once we are back up and running. Then when I get my real test kit I should be in business. And no more walmart chemicals!

    Just wondering, why do you need to keep a higher fc with bleach than pucks. Everything you read states to keep your chlorine at 1-3 ppm for pools. Is it because bleach is less stable.
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Think we found the problem!!

    The 1-3 ppm is industry jargon and assumes there is no CYA in the water, like most indoor pools.

    Proper FC levels are based on your current CYA level, making the 1-3 ppm industry recommendation misleading and irrelevant. Refer to the CYA chlorine chart for your respective recommended level.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    So can I assume it is safe to swim when I am in the min to target fc range. (based on my cya)?

    Hey thanks for all the info frustratedpoolmom. Sorry if I seemed a bit cranky last night. It has been a long 2 months and was just worried about alot of things. Hope to be in my pool soon, maybe that will relieve some stress!!

    BTW, been meaning to tell you, I have a sis that lives in elmhurst and I was born and raised in Des Plaines.

    Thanks again.
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    you're safe from minimum and some people will swim up to shock level. but the thing about minimum is you're probably going to go below minimum the second people get in the pool unless you're using an swg. so be diligent and keep it at target range.
    16x32 21,000 gallon in-ground exposed aggregate, 1.5hp pump, 120 sqft catridge filter, birdcage, solar panels, aquavac tigershark qc robot.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    No problem. Heck I didn't get my screenname by accident! Been there, done that....Have Copper stains to show for it.

    I used to live in Elmhurst! On Sunnyside, south of the Prairie Path. Lived there for 5 years. Just drove thru last week to show the rugrats the old abode. It's sure changed, I miss that town. Should have stayed....

    Yup, safe to swim, and Reebok gave you the 411 on that.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Well not so sure I'm out of the woods yet with the copper issue. It was clear enough at one point to see the bottom vaguely, but I noticed earlier when I was brushing that I have a black line is some areas, probably about where he lowered the water to last winter. Hope its more organic from algae and leaves.

    Just really excited now to get filtering and get my kit. Feel like I'm almost there!!
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Got my test kit today. Very exited!!

    Here are my numbers:

    FC 6
    CC 0.5
    TC 6.5 (correct?)
    PH 7.5
    TA 90
    CH 130
    CYA 50

    The CC may not be correct. It turned clear when swirling, then back to pink when sitting for approx 10 sec. Maybe more like 2 drops (I added another), at any rate it would still be 1, correct?
    Do you add another drop to check for any further change in all tests?

    So I think overall they look pretty good except my water is still not clear, and I cannot see the bottom.
    The water looks alot cleaner now, course I refilled approx 1/3 of it yesterday, and with the filter issue squared away I'm sure that helped. Have been back to filtering now for the last 20 hours.

    Should I do an overnight fc loss tonight to see what is going on, or shock and do both, or, let my filter try and clear the problem now? As I mentioned above, I had that copper issue, but again I replaced approx 1/3 of my water yesterday and sat. when I had it tested it said copper .35. The guy at the pool store indicated I had a "color change in the test", which indicated problems.

    Suggestions?
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    I suggest that your raise the pool to shock level this evening, after the sun is off the pool, and do an overnight FC loss test. That way you can be completely sure that all of the algae is gone.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Shocked last night, overshot it a little and got fc 23. (tested 35min after adding last jug).
    This am my numbers are

    FC 21.5
    CC 1

    Tested it twice last night(still trying to get used to the tests).
    Is this loss indicative of algae, or could it still be dirt.
    As I said earlier, my water looks cleaner but is still blue/grey.

    My husband replaced the filter sand this year, but he is curious if buying walmart filter sand instead of a pool store sand could make a difference.
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

  18. Back To Top    #18
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    That is hopefully the last bits of the algae dying off. Raise to shock level again tonight and do the overnight test again, and if all is going well you should pass the test tonight.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  19. Back To Top    #19
    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Thanks jason for all your help.

    Will do.
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

  20. Back To Top    #20
    bwiley47's Avatar
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    Re: Should I add a metal agent?

    Just thought I would check in. And of course I have questions.

    I wasn't able to do anouther overnight fc test as jason suggested because I had to work that night. I've been trying to keep in shock mode but it did drop to 14.5 yesterday. Tested last night and added enough bleach to bring up to shock level (or so I think because I did not recheck after adding).

    This am my fc is 20.5 (my shock level is 20)
    And CC is 0.5
    I am going to recheck my cya after I pour it through a coffee filter since my water is blue/cloudy and after I let my sample warm up a bit. (read that in pool school!)

    I noticied during the day I could see the bottom fairly well (especially when brushing), but in the evening it still had that dark color to it. But last eve when I checked I noticed I could see the bottom more! I think this means I'm making some headway!
    I realize by letting it drop yesterday I lost some ground, but I am off for the next 5 days so I plan to maintain shock level and then if it is not completely clear after the 4th add the metal agent to see if it helps. (it says not to add during shock or shock for one week after, so will need to let it drop).

    Sometime during this I was told that if my problem was the copper my water would be more clear with a blue tint to it. So I have been trying to be patient and let the filter clear it since it was blue/grey, thinking maybe it was dead algae. So my question is, when you say the water will have a blue tint to it, should my sample be blue looking? (dumb question I know), or the overall appearance of the pool?

    Sorry for the rambling, but really need input!
    16 x 32 AG Fanta Sea 13,500 gal/ Hayward Sand Filter/ 1 hp Hayward Power Flo LX Pump
    1 skimmer 1 main drain

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