Helping MY dad with his pool: High TA, Low PH?

[ionizer]

Helping my dad and trying to get him to stop going to the pool store and wasting his time and money

So I brought my taylor kit over and did some measurements:

PH: 7.0 (maybe lower/off the chart)
CYA: 60ish
TA: 130 (high)
FC: 0.5 if that
CC: 4.5

What was confusing was the app says for TA of 130 that you reduce ph to 7.0-7.2 with acid and then aerate to increase Ph.

Since his pH is already low and his TA is still high, what do I do?

We took his pool pump (he has no water fall and his jets dont angle up enough to make anything more than a ripple in the water) and put it on the stairs so that it created a little above the water turbulence in hopes to raise the pH

However, the question remains - what is the proper next step before SLAM? Should we get the pH up first? What about the high TA - do we worry about that later?

It seems he is having difficulty keeping FC and I presume that is because he needs to SLAM - but i also thought one doesn't SLAM until the pH is within a normal range....does one also have to wait for TA to be within range?

His color is cloudy blue/green at the moment, so fairly certain there is still tons of algae.

thanks as always for your help!

Dad's pool info:
Vinyl, ~36k gallons, Temp ~60 degrees and sand filter.

 

[JamesW]

Those numbers really don't make sense. With a 130 TA, the pH is unlikely to be off the chart low.

Can you give some history and details?

 

[ionizer]

Those numbers really don't make sense. With a 130 TA, the pH is unlikely to be off the chart low.

Can you give some history and details?

well im not certain it is "off the chart" it is definitely 7.0 or lower. it looked a bit yellowier/orangier than the bottom of the taylor ph scale, but it could just be 7.0 as well

i know the pool store had him originally add something to increase the TA and probably ended up overshooting

i think i read the aeration is best to get it up to 7.6 or something then use muriatic acid to reduce the ph back to 7.0-7.2 and then keep aearating....

at what point should I get his TA to in order to begin slamming , assuming I have the ph at that point b/t 7.4-7.6? Can the TA be a little on the high side or does it have to be within range?

any other history i can provide? he threw a bunch of dichlor in at some point, as well as 6 gallons of bleach. Supposedly he had no CYA at one point as well, but i measured CYA (I really hate that test) at something around 60 or so....however I dont know what his CYA was when he put in the dichlor or liquid, but clearly he will need to a SLAM given his high TC and inability to keep any FC currently.

 

[JamesW]

Check ph and TA tomorrow. I suspect that the ph will be fine. The TA is not too high. I would leave it for now.

If ph is good, begin SLAM.

 

[ionizer]

my dad had leslie's test his pH today - i couldnt get over there due to a funeral, and they told him it was 7.4 and TA was 100. I told him if that is accurate (even if it's off a little bit) than he should probably SLAM but to make sure he had enough time to monitor.

 

[JamesW]

I think that you're good to go on the SLAM.

 

[ionizer]

I think that you're good to go on the SLAM.

Hey James, I am so confused. So we went forward with the SLAM:

It said to add just under 6 jugs of liquid bleach to get to about 20 FC, so he added all 6.

So 3 hours later, his FC is 2.5 (if that) and his CC is high at 6.0. He is running pump full speed since adding the bleach.

Why would his FC be only 2.5 when he just added 6 (128oz of 12% bleach) - brand new from the store, same lot I've been using and had no issues with so far. Shouldn't it be jumping up to like 10 or 15 or the target 20?

is it because there is just so much algae that the FC is being eaten quicker than it can reach slam level?

I'm so confused on this one.

btw: I reconfirmed CYA (not sure if accurate during a SLAM) and it's about 55 give or take.

 

[JamesW]

Algae and other contaminants eating up the chlorine. Likely that bacteria ate some of the cyanuric acid and converted it into ammonia.

Continue SLAM.

 

[ionizer]

Algae and other contaminants eating up the chlorine. Likely that bacteria ate some of the cyanuric acid and converted it into ammonia.

Continue SLAM.

ok, i can continue the SLAM, but I am confused. Do i use my FC 2.5 number that I currently got and assume I need to add MORE bleach to get back to 22? (another 5.8 128oz jugs?)

Is the thought that somehow my initial SLAM degraded down to 2.5 in 3 hours??

PS: Does the fact my dad has a sand filter play a role in this at all?

 

[Flying Tivo]

Add until you reach your slam level and retest every 15 min until the FC holds

 

[JamesW]

Keep adding liquid chlorine as needed. It might take a lot.

 

[ionizer]

Added 6 more 128oz bottles. Took a measurement 15 mins after and only registered a 3.0 FC and 5 CC.

Did I not wait long enuf? Going to take another measurement in an hour when sun is gone.

Shallow end looks clear but yellowish hue over steps. Deep end looks light yellow/green.

I took CYa earlier andngot 55 but I was running low on cyanuris acid so I didn't make it to the top of the fill line (maybe got 3/4 there). Even if I am off it's either 15 or 20 in either direction worst case right? More CYa arriving Tuesday.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep adding liquid chlorine as needed. It might take a lot.

See above also. Understood, but shouldn't it register right away or at least shortly after adding? I mean the pool looks mostly clear. Why wouldn't the Fc register and CD be high?

 

[JamesW]

Probably ammonia from bacteria eating the cyanuric acid. It can take a lot of chlorine to completely oxidize all of the ammonia.

It might be worthwhile doing a partial drain and refill to get rid of ammonia.

Don't drain a lot of water if the ground water is high. Always leave at least 18" of water in the shallow end.

 

[ionizer]

Keep adding liquid chlorine as needed. It might take a lot.

Just took a sunset reading, an hour after slam started again. That's 6 128oz 12.5% bleach.

FC 1.5
Cc 8.5 (what the?)

I took pH too even though it shouldn't be accurate but since fc was so low i figured why not. ph was 7.0 at end of scale.

What is going on? My slam is not even getting anywhere near the FC level based the CYa amount (50-55) and target of 22

 

[JamesW]

Ammonia will neutralize a lot of chlorine fast. It will also cause high CC levels.

It might be worthwhile doing a partial drain and refill to get rid of ammonia.

Don't drain a lot of water if the ground water is high. Always leave at least 18" of water in the shallow end.

 

[ionizer]

Ammonia will neutralize a lot of chlorine fast. It will also cause high CC levels.

It might be worthwhile doing a partial drain and refill to get rid of ammonia.

Don't drain a lot of water if the ground water is high. Always leave at least 18" of water in the shallow end.

My dad has a liner like me and in my experience leaving 18 inches is too little because I did that once when getting rid of CYa and my liner started to move and and existing Rip became bigger.

However while I am familiar with removing CYa, I am not familiar with removing ammonia.
Is there any page here that deals with that?

How do I measure how much to remove?

Is it possible his CYa level is too low thus no FC reading? Or would that be the opposite?

Is a potential 7.0 ph making the slam ineffective?

 

[JamesW]

Just need to continue SLAM.

You can do a partial drain and refill but only drain as much as you can do safely.

 

[ionizer]

Just need to continue SLAM.

You can do a partial drain and refill but only drain as much as you can do safely.

thanks James for all the feedback so far.

However, I am confused on the SLAM. It's not that I don't understand it (I am actually doing it right now with my pool and I have a FC reading of 22.5 with a CC of <0.5 and will be checking in the morning to see if I dropped > 1.0 FC). What I don't understand is, how can I literally add Qty 6 of 128oz of bleach which should in theory bring my dad's pool up to a FC of 22 based on all measurements, but then take a measurement both 15 minutes and 60 minutes later and never ever get a FC > 3.0 ? I mean how is that possible in such a short timeframe?

I take that same exact test kit back to my house and the minute I add the powder I get dark pink and have to add like 45 drops (using 10ml sample) to clear it out.
My dad and I are using the same exact chlorine bought from the same store.

Are we saying my dad's algae is so bad that the bleach is literally being eaten before it can register? His shallow end looks as clear as mine and his deep end looks similar. we have slightly different colored liners so its hard to tell true water color.

So, my confusion is - how do I "Continue" to SLAM if it feels like I can't even get to the proper 22 FC level for a SLAM? I mean in the past 2 days he's added 12 128oz of bleach for a 35k gallon pool. Prior to that he was adding 6 1lb bags of shock.......at what point does it become ridiculous?

 

[JamesW]

It's due to ammonia. It destroys chlorine very fast. There's no easy answer. You just have to keep adding until the ammonia is gone.

It's probably going to take a lot of chlorine, but it will eventually break.

Don't be surprised if the total amount of bleach exceeds 50 gallons.

 

[Flying Tivo]

Keep adding every 15-20 min until it starts to hold. Dont wait an hour to add chlorine, if you test and its low then add chlorine right away, and retest and add. If you keep adding chlorine fast, this will be over soon. The more you wait to add just adds to your confusion and desperation.

keep at it!

Felipe