Simplifying BBB for very small pools (e.g. Intex)

[PaulR]

Edit: the final version of these instructions can be found in Pool School as Beginners Guide for Seasonal/Temporary Pools. End-edit

Caution: These are experimental suggestions. They need to be fleshed out and tried in the real world. Feedback welcome, ESPECIALLY FROM INTEX OWNERS.

Very small above-ground pools will benefit from somewhat different handling compared to "regular" pools. Examples of these very small pools include most of the Intex Easy Set pools, and the smaller Intex Metal Frame pools. Where the dividing line between "very small" and "regular" should go is not clear; maybe around 5000 gallons.

My thoughts about how to manage the water chemistry of these pools are based on a few observations.
1) They are tiny.
2) They are vinyl.
3) They are cheap.
4) They are not permanent.

These observations lead me to the following conclusions:

CH: Low CH is irrelevant to vinyl. High CH could be an issue depending on TA and pH. But you'd need really nasty-high CH in the fill water for this to be a problem, and probably requires a lot of evaporation/refill to accumulate to that level; this can be solved by dumping and refilling. Hence: No need to test for CH.

CYA: This seems to come in 4-lb containers. A very small pool might not need more than 1/2 lb. Buying 8 seasons worth of CYA is a waste. Use the dichlor/bleach system originally developed for spas to establish a reasonable CYA level. If you follow the system you don't really need a CYA test.


I think the appropriate recommendations are as follows.

Test Kit: Get a drop-test kit that handles pH, chlorine, and TA. Don't need anything else (sorry duraleigh!).

Startup: Test and fix pH first. Then start the dichlor. I'm estimating the quantity of dichlor needed is 1/2 lb per 1000 gallons, rounded up; I'm pretty sure this should get CYA into the 30-50 range in all cases. For sunny southern climes, this could be increased to 3/4 lb per 1000 gallons, which I think gets you into the 50-70 range (but I didn't check all that carefully). The dichlor dosing looks like 1 oz (volume) per 1000 gallons gets you around 5ppm FC; it would take one to two weeks to use it up. When the dichlor runs out, you will have a reasonable CYA level, and it's time to switch to 6% bleach.

Maintenance: 6% bleach for chlorine; 2 oz per 1000 gallons is 1ppm FC. The target FC would be in the 3-5 range. pH and TA managed as usual, except maybe we should recommend dry acid (not muriatic). I don't like the thought of adding muriatic to something that looks like an Easy Set.

Slings and arrows welcome. Intex owners willing to be guinea pigs ESPECIALLY welcome.
--paulr

 

[AnnaK]

I would include a definition of acronyms. Most new pool owners, Intex or otherwise, do not know what FC, CH, TA, CYA stand for.

 

[dmanb2b]

PaulR...great post...seems like it should work

 

[PaulR]

I would include a definition of acronyms. Most new pool owners, Intex or otherwise, do not know what FC, CH, TA, CYA stand for.

There's already a Pool School article about the acronyms here. A more polished version of these recommendations could certainly point to it, if we think small-pool owners are going to start here and not read anything else. I didn't define "dichlor" either.
--paulr

 

[AnnaK]

My guess is that small pool owners will glom onto an article about their Intex or similar pool and not read any further at that time, especially if the content answers their immediate questions. But if the article is difficult to understand because of terminology they'll post to the forum. It's human nature to take the easy road.

What would be the harm to add definitions and point them to the more detailed writeup?

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Puleeze don't take this the wrong way, Paul or anyone else. I'm not calling Intex owners dummies....it's just sooo easy for noobs to be overwhelmed, see all the info in pool school and turn the other way, resorting to "traditional pool store methods" - pucks/algaecides, etc.

I think it needs to be made more like a step-by-step guide or "new small-pool startup for dummies" kinda thing. Simplified, KWIM?

Something like

"While you are setting up the pool, pick up an "HTH 6-way drop test" (Wal-mart sells for around $20) so that you can test your tap water. Or if you choose, take a sample of your tap water to the pool store for testing (but don't buy any chemicals from them, yet...) This will give you some idea of the kind of chemicals you will need on hand to treat your water.

Low PH - You'll need some Borax
Low TA - You'll need some Baking Soda
High PH or TA - You'll need some Muratic Acid.
Low PH AND Low TA - If you can find it, Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda or "soda ash"......

Edit: (Problem is, they won't know what's high or low or ok, so that needs to be simply explained too, either copy the info from REcommended Levels or link to the article.)

Here is the explanation of what all these abbreviations mean (and then link to the def article in PS).

Don't bother testing your tap water for CYA, because it won't be there, and the HTH kit only has enough solution to test your CYA 3 times, so save that for later...."

That's just off the top of my head, and probably not what you had in mind... but to me it needs to be the simpler, the better. KISS.

I agree with Anna, no complex terms, names unless absolutely necessary and definitions can be incorporated into the article and/or then link to the Chem Definitions article in pool school.

For small pools, it makes sense to have them use Dichlor for the first couple of days to get the CYA level up. (But you have to put the proper name so they don't buy Cal-hypo by mistake). Then they can switch to bleach...

Alot of the intex owners by the pool chems where they bought the pool - so they need to be warned about the HTH products that might contain copper... and we need to stress the importance of reading the "active ingredients" so that they KNOW what they are putting in their pool.

As for chlorination, I wouldn't use terms like " x lb per 1,000 gallons", I would say more like "2 cups" or 1/2 a jug, half a package". Etc. and for bleach, a little over isn't going to hurt so it doesn't have to be super precise... but perhaps a chart with measures per 1000 gallons up to 5000. Make the math easy for them so they don't have to think about it yet. Overtime, they will figure it out but it's too easy to be overwhelmed by TMI. They could and should learn how to use the Pool Calculator, whether they have a little pool or not...

Dichlor, yes too much is a bad thing, and the article can stress that.

Trichlor pucks or tablets - okay for vacation use, provided they understand what they do....blah blah blah...

Also if the pool is under 5,000 and it turns green, it's probably going to be easier for them to just drain and start over, so that should be mentioned. Also mentioning that those filters are disposable and not meant to be used all summer. LOL

I think at the minimum any pool except for a Mr. Turtle type pool should use the HTH 6-way kit at the very least....and even Dave would agree with you that a TF100 is overkill for a 1,700 gallon pool.

Ok those are my thoughts on it. Hope it makes sense, and sorry if I was rambling....

 

[AnnaK]

You're making some great points, FPM.

I have a personal issue with the term "jug" as it relates to bleach because the size of a jug can be different things to different people. I really like your idea of suggestion measurements in cups and/or we could go with oz even.

If I understand PaulR's goal correctly, the point of the article is to slide folks into the BBB method easily (trouble freely? ) and to do that we do need to keep it simple and make it nearly intuitive. People want to set up their pools, fill them and swim all on the same weekend and we can help them do that but we need them to stick around long enough to read something they can really go out there and use.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I agree with you!

Have you noticed how grocery products are shrinking? Quarts of ice cream are now 1.5 or 1.75....16 oz cans are now 15 or 14 oz, gallons of bleach are now 96 oz - which BTW, I hadn't notice UNTIL I went to buy some for my pool 2 years ago....

I think alot of people still think it's a gallon of bleach! And the fact that the 10-12.5% is still sold in gallon jugs is even more confusing. And they think the large jugs are 2 gallons... ugh.

The more simple and specific we are the better!

 

[AnnaK]

Have you noticed how grocery products are shrinking? Quarts of ice cream are now 1.5 or 1.75....16 oz cans are now 15 or 14 oz, gallons of bleach are now 96 oz - which BTW, I hadn't notice UNTIL I went to buy some for my pool 2 years ago....

Well heck! If a pint of ice cream has also shrunk I won't feel so bad for eating one

I suspect all this shrinkage has to to with the eventual conversion to metric sizes. Bags of dog food used to be sold in 40# sizes which shrunk to 35# and are now 29.x# for the brand we use which is manufactured in Canada where they're metric. And to really make it fun, a pound isn't a pound everywhere. I'm German and a pound is 500 grams or 1/2 kg. In the US a pound is 454 gram and a kg is 2.2 pounds but still only 1,000 grams. Sigh.

At a pool party a couple of weeks ago we had a humongous argument about how many pounds in a ton. I said 2,000 and got dunked for it, several times (because I kept insisting). The North Americans at the party said it's 2,200 pounds. It got pretty loud, we were somewhat into our cups 9plastic, of course). We put an end to it when someone wanted to calculate the weight of the pool water in tons and someone else said we first need to calculate the precise volume and wanted a snorkel to measure the dips and valleys. Pool parties can get pretty riotous sometimes.
::

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Sounds like fun...LOL

 

[PaulR]

I have recipes that call for a 7-ounce can of tuna. Just try to find that nowadays. But enough sidetracking.

The goal is not sliding people into BBB, the goal is to trim down the full-bore BBB to what's really essential for a small and temporary pool, and ignore what isn't essential. That's why I think blowing off CH, and doing CYA in a calculated instead of measured way (add X amount of dichlor, don't bother testing), would be more appropriate than what we usually tell people. Fewer things to test for = simpler = easier to follow = KISS.

I agree that a step-by-step how-to article would be most appropriate. I started doing that and quickly got bogged down. Then it seemed as though we should agree on what the steps are first.... which so far have no real-world validation that I've seen.

I do not presently have time to do a real how-to; work is suddenly hopping, I have a deadline at the end of July and I'm away 19 of the 31 days in July (not counting days of uselessness due to jet-lag). I did want to get these ideas out in front of everybody, so that's what I wrote.

I would particularly like some of the veterans to provide an opinion whether
- blowing off CH is unlikely to get small-pool owners into trouble,
- doing CYA with the dichlor/bleach method would scale reasonably from 300-gal spas to 3000-gal temporary pools.
--paulr

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Please include CYA as an important part of managing a pool, even if it is basically a 'kiddie pool' of a few thousand gallons.

CYA can build up fairly quickly and render low chlorine ineffective. This will cause a small pool owner the same grief that everyone comes here to alleviate.

I'm a former (and soon to be again - <sigh>) Intex owner, and I believe that everyone with a pool should know about their CYA/chlorine relationship.

 

[PaulR]

As a reformed puck user I am painfully aware of what high CYA does. But understanding the CYA/Chlorine relationship is not one of the easier things, once you get past a rote "high CYA = bad" mantra. The procedure says to use a specific amount of dichlor then switch to bleach, in order to get the CYA to a reasonable level but not too high. The step-by-step how-to version can point to the Pool School article that discusses this in more detail, I think it's the How To Chlorinate article.
--paulr

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

By all means work comes first! This is my unobligated "work", I just don't get a paycheck...LOL

I agree, CH doesn't matter much for a vinyl pool, provided it's not too high and as long as the PH is kept in check.

I also like the approach of using a small amount of Dichlor until the CYA is in range, and then switching to bleach. No reason for a small pool to buy 4 lbs of CYA.

 

[kaxfenix]

I bought Four lbs of CYA

I don't mind pigging it up

I have a pretty good perspective of a new Intex pool owner being one... So let me paint you a picture.
You got your pool and it is filling with water, one thing your pool did not come with but speaks a lot about in the manuals is Chemicals needed to keep your water clean. Naturally you are going to head up to the place you bought your pool, to find said chemicals for your water ( more than likely wal mart, but it's all the same no matter where you bought it).

When you get to the pool aisle you are standing there looking all ALL the different things they sell, with steps like 1, 2, 3, 4 located on the bottles indicating what's first, second, and so on. But the weird thing is there bottles made by the same company with different names that both say Step one, so what should I do? Confused and frustrated you either buy everything, or go home to the internet....

The above is your average noobie Intex Pool owner.

From my own extensive searching on the boards I have gather a pretty good knowledge base of what I need and don't need to maintain my pool..

So for you Intex easy set pools here is your shopping list.

Bleach -- 6%, You can get this at wal mart in a 1 gallon and 46oz bottle for 3-5 bucks(Wal Mart brand)

Baking Soda -- Again you cab get Store brand but might as well Buy Arm and Hammer.

Borax -- What ?? What the heck is Borax. I never heard of it before but go to your laundry aisle. Find a Green Box called 20 Mule Team Weird name I know but it will be there.

Muriatic Acid -- You kind find this in some Gardening centers at wal Mart, named just that muriatic acid, but if you can't find it there you will for Sure find it at a home Depot, and Lowes etc...

Cyanuric Acid -- This is really the only "pool packaged and sold " item you will need from the store. It is normally Packaged and labeled Pool Stabilizer and Conditioner

Test Kit... It's your Nickel so if you want to drop dough on a recommended TFP test kit then do so, Other wise get a Dropper Test kit that Tests for the following

CYA(Cyanuric Acid) -- AKA Stabilizer and Conditioner(which it is referred to in stores). This will help protect your chlorine from being used up at a faster rate, from the Sun, as well as breaking down of algae and the like.

FC(Free Chlorine) -- How much Chlorine is in your pool.

PH(Potential of Hydrogen) -- how acidic is your water

TA(Total Alkalinity) -- This is what helps keep your water's PH stabilized. To high and your PH will be high to low and your PH will be low etc...

Finally on Test kits, try to stay away from the Strips. The Reason being is that they are hard to judge accuracy. When you test, a particular test will change to certain color and you have to match it to the color legend on the box, and unless it matches the identified number/color indicated you have to guess on what it is in between.... With a dropper test you get accurate results based on how much drops of solution you add to said water. So yeah... Get your self a 6 way dropper test.

Now you have all your supplies, your pool is full or just about full what do you do???

Turn on your Filter Pump Follow the procedures in your operating instructions found in your pools manual.

First thing is First you want to test your water. Doing this now will give you a foundation to build off of.

I recommend you use the POOL CALCULATOR to help you with your numbers.


Your Free Chlorine(FC) will be zero. So you want to get some Chlorine in there. Input your current number ( ZERO) and your desired numbers ( follow the TFP recommendations) you want from the Pool Calculator and follow the instructions it calls for.

Next your PH, More than likely this may be around the range it needs to be for comfortable swimming but if it isn't then again enter the current number and then the desired goal number and Follow the instructions. You will need to add Borax to raise your PH or Muratic acid to lower PH, Depending on your situation, just follow the calculators recommendations and you should be fine.

Your Total Alkalinity(TA), will probably be high. It seems tap water in most house holds have a high TA, or at least it could be that way in the south. But none the less test it. If it is high add a little Muratic Acid to lower it. This is kinda tricky because it will also lower your PH levels as well. So add it Wait an hour or so and test again you can bring your PH up by just Aerating the water AKA Splashing or turning the filter pumps nozzle to aim towards the surface of the water.
IF your TA is too low then added some good ol baking soda, via the recommendations the calculator calls for.


For those three things, I recommend you add these in during the evening after the sun is down. If you happen to fill your pool up and it is full before sundown and your kids are like Moooom/Daaaaad when can we swim, it will be ok to let them swim in the pool before you add the chems.. I mean honestly the Easy Set pool is a larger kiddie pool and nothing more. So let them swim and get down to business that same evening.


Finally I left this one for last. Your Cyanuric Acid(AKA STABILIZER) levels. Your CYA is important because as previously mentioned it helps keep your pools Chlorine in your water longer than with out. Its that simple.

There is a method to adding this. And for Easy Set you will probably get odd looks from your significant other when they see you doing this...
Here is how you add it.

Take a Sock Poor your recommended levels from the Calculator into the sock and then take some string, and tie it off from the opening so it can't poor out. Then take another string ( or same one if long enough ) tie it to your ladder or whatever and position it in a way where the flow from the pump is flowing right through the sock. Let your pump run until there is no longer anything left in the sock.

I would also recommend that you place a wash cloth under the string so it does not put a lot of pressure on your blown up ring. Not saying it will be cause a hole, but you can't be too safe when it comes to such a important part of the pools structure.

So you added everything you were supposed to... Do you feel accomplished? LET your Filter Run and Call it a night.

NOW that you are in the beginning stages of a nice Groove, you need to maintain that groove, but being consistent. Consistency is important with maintaining a nice clean and safe pool.

Check your levels every day. At the Same time everyday, and enter your results into the Pool Calculator and adjust as needed. It is important to DO THIS EVERY DAY!


Follow the Daily/weekly recommended routine schedule found in The Pool School

 

[kaxfenix]

Let me know if I need to add/adjust anything.. The above is basically my own dilemma and thought process as I went through the first days of my pool.

 

[JasonLion]

Yes, ignore CH.

At startup you need to test and adjust both TA and PH, and it might be worth raising them high enough to still be reasonable after adding all of the initial dichlor. After that you can probably ignore TA. TA isn't likely to get all that low.

I wonder what CYA level we should aim for. With an OTO test, it isn't possible for most people to distinguish FC levels above 2 from each other. Most people can still tell 2 from higher than 2. That suggests aiming for a fairly low CYA, say 30, so that FC of 2 is still acceptable. There can still be problems however: if FC is 3 in the evening, and all they can say is that it is higher than 2, then how much chlorine do they add?

FC levels are self correcting to some extent. If FC is too high, FC lost to sunlight will be more than otherwise and bring FC back down again (somewhat). This won't work perfectly, but it does give us some leeway in the dosage. If FC is too low, the OTO test can tell them that, and if it is too high it will self correct to some extent. Another reason to use a fairly low CYA level.

Dry acid for sure. It is available in small containers and is much easier to handle. But what about borax vs soda ash? I would rather avoid using baking soda and borax and soda ash. So it is either soda ash alone, and assume TA will get fairly high over time, or both baking soda and borax. Anyone can buy baking soda no problem. But both borax and soda ash present minor difficulties in some areas.

kaxfenix, that is a good summation of what we tell most people. But I think that for pools that are emptied completely each year we can get it simpler than that.

 

[Guest]

I would particularly like some of the veterans to provide an opinion whether
- blowing off CH is unlikely to get small-pool owners into trouble,
No
- doing CYA with the dichlor/bleach method would scale reasonably from 300-gal spas to 3000-gal temporary pools.
Depends on whether you are talking about a non filtered 'kiddie pool' or a larger setup, IMHO
--paulr

I also think that mention should be made that if anything goes wrong with the water to dump it and start over.
I also think that having them add some polyquat 60 on each fill would be good insurance against temporary low FC conditions that you KNOW are going to happen.
I don't think TA should be a concern at all and pH kept very simple.(keep it between 7.2 and 7.8).
borax and dry acid should take care of that.
Also, I think dosing should be per 100 gallon and per 1000 gallons so if they have a pool that hold 3400 gal they can use simple addition to figure out how much of somethng to add.

 

[PaulR]

I would particularly like some of the veterans to provide an opinion whether
- blowing off CH is unlikely to get small-pool owners into trouble,
No I asked this badly, I assume you mean ignoring CH is okay
- doing CYA with the dichlor/bleach method would scale reasonably from 300-gal spas to 3000-gal temporary pools.
Depends on whether you are talking about a non filtered 'kiddie pool' or a larger setup, IMHO Primary target is the 1500-5000gal Intex pools which I think do all have filters (generally complained about as undersize, but still it's there at all)
--paulr

I also think that mention should be made that if anything goes wrong with the water to dump it and start over. Check
I also think that having them add some polyquat 60 on each fill would be good insurance against temporary low FC conditions that you KNOW are going to happen. I don't have any PQ60 handy but it looks like 5000 gal would want a dose of 1-2 oz? and you probably have to buy 1qt minimum, I don't want to be recommending buying 1qt of something you'll only ever use 2oz of.
I don't think TA should be a concern at all and pH kept very simple.(keep it between 7.2 and 7.8).
borax and dry acid should take care of that. Well.... TA seems to have a significant effect on how well the borax works, if you want to raise pH with borax you probably do want to know your TA first so your borax dose will work out correctly.
Also, I think dosing should be per 100 gallon and per 1000 gallons so if they have a pool that hold 3400 gal they can use simple addition to figure out how much of somethng to add. Per-100 is pretty small amounts, e.g. if we say 2oz bleach per 1000, that's 0.2oz per 100; I don't know how to measure 0.2oz. Overshooting a bit on the FC is no big deal. Maybe per-500?

 

[PaulR]

But what about borax vs soda ash? I would rather avoid using baking soda and borax and soda ash. So it is either soda ash alone, and assume TA will get fairly high over time, or both baking soda and borax. Anyone can buy baking soda no problem. But both borax and soda ash present minor difficulties in some areas.

Hmm, hmm. Being familiar with borax all my life I am inclined to say baking soda and borax, but if you can't find borax, probably the place you bought the pool has some kind of pH Up product?
--paulr