Pressure to my infloor cleaning system not adequate

[Ladsdale]

I currently have a heat pump and a 400,000 BTU gas heater, both of which are 17 years old and not working. Intend to replace with only a gas heater for my Spa. Will ask more questions about that later. The return from the gas heater runs through a Jandy Valve Actuator to either the pool or spa. On the pool return, it splits to my A&A Mfg Top Feed 1.5" 6 port actuator, infloor cleaning system, with the other line feeding into my Hayward Turbo Cell T-15. I have an inline ball valve on each of the splits, that lets me shut the flow and force all the water to the other line. I have 2" plumbing, but at the ball valve before the T-15 Turbo Cell, it seems to reduce to 1.5". The ball valve leading to the infloor cleaning system may also reduce to 1.5", but I need to dig down to verify that. The infloor cleaning system was stuck in one place and not rotating. I checked the gears of the actuator and they appear fine. The pressure gauge on the actuator was reading 0. By closing the valve to the Turbo Cell, the pressure on the actuator got up to 10 and started rotating again. But of course, that means there is no water running through the Turbo Cell, so I'm not producing chlorine. I need to redo the plumbing for the new heater anyway, so I was wondering if I could run all the pool return through the T-15 Turbo Cell first, and then to the A&A infloor cleaning system. Right now the flow the runs through the Turbo Cell, comes back into the pool through a 1.5" inlet that is situated right under my skimmer. I guess if I ran the 2" pipe through the Turbo Cell first, I would put a valve that would allow me divert some flow to the 1.5" inlet that runs under my skimmer and the rest to the A&A infloor system. In the attached diagram, (5) is the Turbo Cell T-15. Is there any reason why you would not want the water coming out of the Turbo Cell to go through the A&A actuator? Thanks

 

[proavia]

Hi , welcome to TFP!

The salt cell should come after the heater (and heater bypass) but before any returns to spa, pool or infloor. There should also be a heater bypass plumbed in, so you can bypass flow around the heater - this allows heater to be isolated from the rest of the circulation system and usually increases flow when not using the heater.

Additionally, you may want to invest in Jandy 3-way or 2-way valves instead of inline ball valves. After a number of years, the ball valves tend to stick, leak or malfunction.

You may want to consider plumbing the new heater so it is possible to heater the pool in addition to just the spa (basically the same as it is now, with a few user-friendly mods mentioned above). This will make it easier to plumb, given it's present location, and give you more heating flexibility.

Since you mentioned that the infloor used to work better, maybe the flow has been reduced because of a dirty filter. When was the last time you opened up your DE filter and completely cleaned it out (not just a backwash/recharge)? What is your clean filter pressure and what is your current filter pressure?

Take a picture of your current setup and post it here. We may be able to give you some pointers on plumbing it all up.

 

[Ladsdale]

Below is photo of my return plumbing. Flow comes out of the multiport and into the Heat Pump. There is a by-pass valve between the Heat Pump inflow and out flow and another by-pass for the gas heater. These don't totally cut off flow, they just allow you to divert some flow past the heater by opening them. The outflow from the gas heater come down that long stretch to a 3 way actuator valve. (It looks like a 2 way, but there is a pipe under the body of the valve). The pipe that continues to the right with the inline valve is a Spa make-up line that allows water to flow to the spa even when the actuator in in Pool Mode. In pool mode, the flow moves to the left (out of the actuator valve). Assuming both inline valves are open, some flow drops down the the In-Floor Cleaning system (the newer Red inline valve) and some loops around and flows through the Turbo Cell T-15 and out to the pool through a 1.5" pipe under the skimmer. By closing off the Inline valve (with the broken handles) to the Turbo Cell, I direct all the flow to the In-Floor which gave me enough pressure for it to work correctly.

I would propose to put the new gas heater where the heat pump is currently located. I will have to relocate the gas line, but that's not a big deal. Based upon you reply, I think my proposed layout would be okay. All the flow out of the heater would run through the Turbo Cell (5) and then flow to the actuator valve. I have also included a Check Valve between the turbo cell and the heater outflow. This would limit the plumbing that would have to be redone. The only thing I haven't included is a heater by-pass. There seems to be differing opinions on how necessary that is with the new heaters. Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[proavia]

The location of the SWG in the proposed layout is correct. You don't really need the check valve between the heater and SWG - that's a holdover from when they would add a puck chlorinator in the location of the SWG. When the pump shuts off, water flow stops and the SWG shuts down - no chance of concentrated chlorine backflowing toward the heater, as the SWG is off.

While you are replumbing, you may wish to consider replacing those ball valves with Jandy never-lube valves. The cheap ball valves have a tendancy to become hard to turn with age. Either the handles will become brittle and break off or the internal ball will freeze up. Much easier to replace now while a good portion of the plumbing is apart.

In my mind, a heater bypass should allow ALL flow to be removed from the heater. If you have a leak in the heater, pH imbalance, low CH, etc. - you need to totally isolate said heater to allow continued operation of the circulation system.

As to the infloor system... I run 100% of return flow to the infloor for the best cleaning performance. With my variable speed pump, I am able to lower the pump speed (from 3450rpm to 2800rpm) to safe electricity while still providing sufficient flow to allow the infloor to properly do its job.

Many times, the leaf catcher is plumbed right before the pump. This allows the main drain and skimmer to flow through it. Having the skimmer plumbed before the leaf catcher helps catch stuff that gets by the skimmer basket or for times the skimmer basket isn't put back in the skimmer (yeah, I've had that happen). It can even be set up so the spa drain is before the leaf catcher.

 

[Ladsdale]

I've been putting off having the pool refinished. It is 17 years old and I'm seeing some more breakdown of the finish. I also have a high CYA issue which I need to solve, so emptying out the pool and starting from scratch seems like a good idea. I'm going to make all the plumbing changes to relocate the SWG but I'm going to run a straight pipe from the multi port and totally by-pass the heaters for now. This way I an get rid of the two old Heaters and make room for a new heater to be installed once I have gotten the refinish done and my chemistry under control. Thanks for all the help.

 

[proavia]

Sounds like a good plan!

Exactly how high is your CYA? Have a look at the Chlorine / CYA Chart for recommended CYA levels for SWG. If you're within those ranges - or even just a little bit higher - you can probably get through this swim season fine. Especially since you are planning to refinish within the next 6-12 months (fall may be the best time as the pool builders usually have less to do in the fall). I'd still replumb the SWG and cut out the heaters now though.

 

[Ladsdale]

View attachment 62578Well I tackled the plumbing changes and things seem to be working fine. (See old plumbing picture above) I disconnected both the heat pump and the gas heater. (now I need to take a trip to the dump) I have lots of room to install a new Raypac gas heater, where the old heat pump is. I moved the SWG from the 1 1/2" pipe that was only getting partial pool return flow; the majority of it going to the in ground cleaning system. Now the SWG is getting the full 2" pipe return flow, regardless if its in pool mode or spa mode. The SWG control panel is now showing flow and when I turn in on, its showing "generating". In the end, I may still need to replace the cell, but I'm not quite ready to turn the system on yet. I need to get my CYA under control. I've been taking advantage of the afternoon thundershowers we are now having in Northeast Florida, to add fresh water to the pool. I will be doing another CYA test tomorrow to see if I have gotten it down any. It was off the charts when I last tested.

The plumbing changes solved another problem I was having. Even after cleaning the filter cartridges and putting in Aqua pearl and installing a new gauge, my pressure was reading 30. When I installed the new plumbing and cut out the broken heaters my pressure dropped to 17. I assume there must have been a blockage in the heaters that was causing the pressure to build up? Does that make sense or is my thinking off?

 

[proavia]

The picture attachment isn't showing - please try it again.... you know how we love pictures!

The pressure drop make sense. Not having to push water through a heat exchanger (causes some restriction) is bad enough - but you were pushing it through 2 heat exchangers. Just another reason it's recommended to install a heater bypass, even with newer heaters that may have a bypass built in.

- - - Updated - - -

The picture attachment isn't showing - please try it again.... you know how we love pictures! If you've hit your pic upload limit here, you can upload and link via Photobucket - or you can CLICK HERE to Become a TroubleFreePool.com Supporter!! and receive additional upload space here.

The pressure drop make sense. Not having to push water through a heat exchanger (causes some restriction) it bad enough - but you were pushing it through 2 heat exchangers. Just another reason it's recommended to install a heater bypass, even with newer heaters that may have a bypass built in.

 

[Ladsdale]

Here is the picture of the new plumbing that didn't upload on my last post. I did use sweep elbows to make the loop back to the SWG. I filled in the 1 1/2" pipe where I took out the SWG. I didn't install a 2 way valve, which you suggested. It was just too easy to put in a new inline valve. I don't expect to be adjusting that much. I just want a little bit of flow to return via the inlet under the skimmer. Most of the flow is being directed at the in ground cleaning system.

I did follow your suggestion and become a supporter. Great site and I'm learning a lot. I let my service company know that effective today, I would be taking over my own servicing.

 

[proavia]

Thanks for becoming a supporter!

Yeah, there's really not a whole lot you can't do yourself. And now that you've found TFP, we can help advise you on the stuff you aren't quite sure about.

 

[kadavis]

Is the older ball valve with broken handle cracked open to get chlorine into spa? It seems that when you activate the spa,water will be dead heading against the main feed line

 

[Ladsdale]

The older ball valve with the broken handles is a Spa Make Up line. I have it cracked open so that there will be water flowing into the spa even when the actuators are set to pool mode. If I open it too much, I loose flow to the in ground cleaning system. When the actuators are set to spa mode, then water would flow through both the three way valve and the make up line and would meet head on at the spa jet returns. Is that what you mean when you say "dead head against the main feed line"? Is that a bad thing?

Actually I could close the make up valve and I would still get flow into the spa through the pop up cleaner heads. That would cause flow over the spill way in the pool every time the pop up heads cycled to the spa. The make up line gives me a constant flow over the spill way. By re positioning the SWG, as I did, I will now get chlorine into the spa either through the pop up heads or the make up line, so that shouldn't be a concern. If "dead heading" is a bad thing, I could close the make up valve. That would give me more flow for the cleaning system in Pool Mode, and eliminate the dead heading when in Spa Mode.

 

[kadavis]

Or maybe a check valve between make up valve and the actuator