Recurring Metal Stains... worse than ever...

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Here's a quick test - rub some vitamin C tablets on the inside of that distribution valve piping with the brown stains. If the stains lift, it is most likely iron. Copper doesn't respond very well to AA, it's too slow and doesn't affect copper oxides much at all. Iron, on the other hand, is easily treated with AA.

As for the municipal water report, you won't ever find iron reported on one because the EPA doesn't consider it a water contaminant. So municipal districts simply don't test or report, it even though they can hove high levels.
 
Swampwoman said:
Can you take a pic of the inside of your skimmer?

Also, how old is your liner (looks young to me) and are your walls steel or polymer?
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The inside of the skimmer is fairly white. I don't have a recent photo and I'm at work right now. The liner is 5 years old. The walls are neither steel or polymer, they're marine grade treated lumber.

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Flying Tivo said:
The infloor distributor looks to have staining. Can you take a picture of the top part of the distributitor?


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That's an older photo the Swampwoman wanted me to repost. At the time, there was some staining on the top part of the distributor as well as the valve assembly itself.

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JoyfulNoise said:
Here's a quick test - rub some vitamin C tablets on the inside of that distribution valve piping with the brown stains. If the stains lift, it is most likely iron. Copper doesn't respond very well to AA, it's too slow and doesn't affect copper oxides much at all. Iron, on the other hand, is easily treated with AA.

As for the municipal water report, you won't ever find iron reported on one because the EPA doesn't consider it a water contaminant. So municipal districts simply don't test or report, it even though they can hove high levels.
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So, when I use Jack's stain id kit, the stains are completely removed by the copper test but not so much by the iron test. However, if I use either citric or ascorbic acid, the stains are completely lifted so I'm not sure what to make of it. Until I did the Jacks stain ID kit, I assumed they were iron stains because of how well ascorbic acid removes them.

Citric acid, ascorbic acid, or sodium sulfite (one of the ingredients in GLB Stain Magnet) all work really well at immediately removing the stains.

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pooldv said:
Do you have any rocks or a rock waterfall? Sometimes iron leaches from rocks. What about an irrigation well?
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No rocks or waterfall.
 
Here are some photos of the CuLator bag.

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Unfortunately, I don't put much stock in the CuLator products...I consider them a gimmick at best. While the chemistry is sound (an ion exchange resin that captures metal ions), the implementation is completely unrealistic in an engineering sense. How can a bag full of resin reduce metal ion levels when 99% of the water is simply going to flow around the bag containing the resin? If you think about how ion-exchange resin water softeners work for reducing household water hardness, water is forced through the resin where sodium ions exchange for calcium ion in the discharge water that goes into your home. In other word, 100% of the water to be treated is forced to contact the resin; that's what makes it work. The fact that there's a color change or a metal stain on the bag is irrelevant and not proof at all that it is working....you have had metal stains in your pipes, does that qualify them as a metal trap?

I'm not trying to sound pedantic or rude about it, I'm just trying to be realistic with you. You can certainly continue to use their product if you wish, but it seems like an awful waste of money to me.
 
I believe Carlos has done repeated AA treatments if I recall correctly and is more concerned with positively identifying the metal, source, and prevention and attempting to reduce sequestrant dependence, as his seems to spend out/wear off very quickly.

I think this may require some triangulation of metal testing, and some further sleuthing.

Carlos, just so you know, I did try Culater a few years back and did not have any luck with it. The culater aspect may be obscuring the issues a bit. I'd set that strategy aside for the moment and focus on pursuing the following ideas:

Retest pool water
Retest source water
Contact swg mfg with pictures and inquire, see if they would provide you a test cell to swap out
Consider testing bonding
Remove ladders, remove cap feet, and look inside for corrosion. If rust, swap out for swg-type ladders.
Consider adding check valve between swg and heater

Etc.
 
Swampwoman said:
I believe Carlos has done repeated AA treatments if I recall correctly and is more concerned with positively identifying the metal, source, and prevention and attempting to reduce sequestrant dependence, as his seems to spend out/wear off very quickly.

I think this may require some triangulation of metal testing, and some further sleuthing.

Carlos, just so you know, I did try Culater a few years back and did not have any luck with it. The culater aspect may be obscuring the issues a bit. I'd set that strategy aside for the moment and focus on pursuing the following ideas:

Retest pool water
Retest source water
Contact swg mfg with pictures and inquire, see if they would provide you a test cell to swap out
Consider testing bonding
Remove ladders, remove cap feet, and look inside for corrosion. If rust, swap out for swg-type ladders.
Consider adding check valve between swg and heater

Etc.
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I understand everyone's aprehension with the CuLator. I've actually used it in the past with no obvious positive results to speak of. Basically, I'm at the point of desperation and thought I'd try it once again. I'm already bleeding money in my 7-10 day cycle of stain removal, adding metal sequestrant, etc.

About the ladder. My ladder is a polymer ladder, not metal. However, I'm wondering if removing my old metal ladder and replacing it with a polymer ladder may have affected the water bonding so I'm thinking about buying a new stainless steel ladder this weekend.

About the pool heater bypass/check valve. I have Jandy valves that allow me to route the water COMPLETELY AROUND the heater so no water is going thru the heater whatsoever. When I do this, I open the heater winterizing plugs and drain all the water out of the heater copper exchanger.

I have a spare cell for my chlorinator but I think for now, I'm going to not run it and manually dose for chlorine. I want to confirm or debunk my theory that the chemistry inside the chlorinator cell may be causing the sequestrant to break down and/or drop the metals back out of solution since I'm seeing such heavy staining at the base of the salt cell as well as in the downstream in-floor cleaning distribution valve.

How would I go about testing the bonding? Call an electrician? I don't trust my pool contractor to really be able to accurately troubleshoot the pool bonding.

I ordered the iron tester you suggested so it should be here in about a week. Anyway, in the mean time, I have a couple hundred bucks worth of Jack's Purple stuff and more stain remover on the way and the cycle continues... :(
 

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carlos31820 said:
Anyway, in the mean time, I have a couple hundred bucks worth of Jack's Purple stuff and more stain remover on the way and the cycle continues... :(
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You really need to stop adding stuff to the pool, its wasting your money and not solving anything since you have not found the culprit yet. I would rather wait until your test get in and retest both fill water and pool water, because At this point I would start suggesting a clean start, that means draining(tarp method) and no sequestrates in the water. Im really hoping you can solve this.

Felipe
 
The SWG is not the issue. People have speculated that it "super-chlorinates" the water passing through it. However, if you do the math, even the highest output SWG cells only raise the FC between 7-10ppm inside the cell. The pH, on the other hand, can get very high inside the cell and that will cause iron to precipitate. But it does not really destroy the sequestrant; HEDP is more rapidly broken down in the bulk pool water volume where UV can destroy it more easily.

I honestly think you have some source of iron contamination and the high pH water inside the cell is what is causing the staining to appear around your return jets. One way to avoid high pH inside the SWG cell is to use borates. Borates act as very strong buffers against pH rise and can cut the pH rise inside the cell by almost half. However, like I and others have said, the iron source needs to be found.


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^That's a good idea, Matt, and one I hadn't thought of. I do use borates and I have not, at least yet, had any iron staining in my cell.

Carlos, I know you have a bypass. The concept of the check valve is so that if the heater and swg are operating simultaneously, the high chlorine of the cell never backflows to the heater when the system switches to off. Most say this doesn't matter with swg the way it does with a puck chlorinator.

Here's a how-to article on testing bonding...if you know an electrician familiar with pools who you trust, that's another way to go ;)
How to Test a Swimming Pool Bonding Grid - AQUA Magazine
 
Flying Tivo said:
You really need to stop adding stuff to the pool, its wasting your money and not solving anything since you have not found the culprit yet. I would rather wait until your test get in and retest both fill water and pool water, because At this point I would start suggesting a clean start, that means draining(tarp method) and no sequestrates in the water. Im really hoping you can solve this.

Felipe
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Maybe easier said than done when I've been looking for the culprit for 3 years now. Just this season, I drained over half the pool immediately after an AA treatment hoping to drain the metals in suspension.

I've had the source water and pool water tested for metal repeatedly and I'm always told there are no metals found.

I would love nothing more than to stop depending on stain treatments and metal sequestrants but I can't stand to see the liner turn from blue to beige to brown while I ponder the possibilities.

Me and everyone I've asked for help can't come up with what the source of the problem may be. Here are the steps I've taken over the past 3 seasons trying to identify the issue.

1. Stain treatments followed by sequestrant.
2. Multiple inspections of all metal fasteners (skimmer screws etc).
3. Multiple inspections of pool light, removal of pool light, to look for any metal corrosion.
4. Replacement of stainless steel ladder (year 1 of 3) and replaced it with a Saftron polymer ladder after finding some corrosion/rust on the ladder rung screws.
5. Installation of a sacrificial zinc anode (bonded to pool equipment and buried in moist soil as suggested here by Chemgeek).
6. Several rounds of water testing, both my own and pool stores, labs...looking for metals.
7. Used Jacks stain ID kit to identify type of stain. The test seemed to indicate iron staining.
8. 2 seasons of draining about a third of the pool water with a pump and this season I drained about half the water (almost ruining the liner in the process as it started to shrink).
9. Hired contractor to replumb equipment so I can completely bypass the pool heater from all water flow when we're not actively heating the pool.
10. Banged my head against an assortment of hard surfaces.
 
I'm going to get run out an a rail for this but I think, NOTE: THINK, that your iron is coming from the ground around the pool. Let me ask you this question, What color is the dirt near your pool? Blackish, yellowish or reddish?
 
carlos31820 said:
Maybe easier said than done when I've been looking for the culprit for 3 years now. Just this season, I drained over half the pool immediately after an AA treatment hoping to drain the metals in suspension.

I've had the source water and pool water tested for metal repeatedly and I'm always told there are no metals found.

I would love nothing more than to stop depending on stain treatments and metal sequestrants but I can't stand to see the liner turn from blue to beige to brown while I ponder the possibilities.

Me and everyone I've asked for help can't come up with what the source of the problem may be. Here are the steps I've taken over the past 3 seasons trying to identify the issue.

1. Stain treatments followed by sequestrant.
2. Multiple inspections of all metal fasteners (skimmer screws etc).
3. Multiple inspections of pool light, removal of pool light, to look for any metal corrosion.
4. Replacement of stainless steel ladder (year 1 of 3) and replaced it with a Saftron polymer ladder after finding some corrosion/rust on the ladder rung screws.
5. Installation of a sacrificial zinc anode (bonded to pool equipment and buried in moist soil as suggested here by Chemgeek).
6. Several rounds of water testing, both my own and pool stores, labs...looking for metals.
7. Used Jacks stain ID kit to identify type of stain. The test seemed to indicate copper staining and no, I've never used a copper algaecide.
8. 2 seasons of draining about a third of the pool water with a pump and this season I drained about half the water (almost ruining the liner in the process as it started to shrink).
9. Hired contractor to replumb equipment so I can completely bypass the pool heater from all water flow when we're not actively heating the pool.
10. Banged my head against an assortment of hard surfaces.


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The last option I see is to bypass the SWG and use manual Chlorination for at least few months and see what happens.


Felipe
 
pabeader said:
I'm going to get run out an a rail for this but I think, NOTE: THINK, that your iron is coming from the ground around the pool. Let me ask you this question, What color is the dirt near your pool? Blackish, yellowish or reddish?
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All of the dirt around me is red clay which is high in iron but I don't have any exposed dirt near the pool. My concrete pad is fairly large and there's grass past the concrete. No water runoff goes in the pool as the concrete is all sloped away from the pool.

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Flying Tivo said:
The last option I see is to bypass the SWG and use manual Chlorination for at least few months and see what happens.


Felipe
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Yes sir. That's the experiment I'm currently doing. I appreciate your feedback, btw. Just very frustrated with my lack of progress.

I'm afraid that after the SWG bypass experiment, I will be completely out of places to look (short of taking my pump apart but I know it has a polymer impeller).


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There's one more way left outlier, but I am loath to mention it anywhere but the deep end. Actually, two.

1. There is a type of iron that is bacterial, believe it or not. Wells get it. Since your under liner surface is wood, it may be possible the staining is from under the liner, and mildly permeating liner....but that the AA somehow still neutralizes it...maybe just even the
acidity.

2. Several years back, a poster with a story similar to yours finally had a pool tech tell him they saw this kind of wall/floor staining with high phosphates. They did a major phosphate removal treatment and sure enough, the stain disappeared. But he didn't stick around long enough to report if it was a long term remedy, and nobody could get the straight of any science to it ;)

Just future thoughts depending on next steps.
 

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