Shade Sail

[jfgreco]

Anyone install a shade sail over the pool? What did you use for support posts? Anyone have them so they can be removable?


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[gwegan]

I confess I have never seen one over the pool.

I suggest that you look at umbrellas they are easier to move and adjust as the afternoon rols on and the sun moves across the sky.

 

[Hotfry]

We have one but it’s not directly over the pool but over theconcrete area behind the pool, it will shade the pool in the summers herestarting about 3 PM.

Back in 2010 I originally intended to make it removablebecause of the summer dust storms that whip through Phoenix but after puttingit up I managed to kind of deter myself of that idea and as it turns out it’sbeen maintenance and trouble free. Ibought two 4”X 12’ and one 4”X15’ pieces of black pipe and fallowed the adviceof the web site I found on how to install them. The 12’ pipe is buried 4’ deep and the 15’ is down 5’, so that’s 8’ and10’ above ground. Then I measured andordered a custom shade sale.

I sized it down so at the two 8’ tall corners I drilledholes for some 3/8” eye bolts and secured the shade sale with some sturdy carabiners. Then at the 10’ high corner I used the same3/8” eyebolt, some ¼” cable with clamps and a turnbuckle to take up theslack.

I’m getting old so I apologize but I want to say the dimensionsof the shade sail are about 28’ long and 12 wide and its triangle shaped. I think altogether we paid about 2G’s andthat includes paying laborers to dig the 3’X4’ and 3’X5’.

I’m sure this isn’t anything regarding the information youwere looking for but there it is for the whole world to see.

 

[philthy]

Also in the Phoenix area and I have a 16x16 square shade sail over about half of my pool.

One corner hooks directly to the fascia board using a 5/16ths eye lag bolt and a D-ring. Corner two uses the same eye lag bolt but into a wall as that part of the house is two stories and about 4 feet of 1/4 inch wire rope.

Corners 3 and 4 use about 8-10 feet of the wire rope and were originally attached directly to the cinder block fence using some anchors. That was a disaster. Once morning I was brushing my teeth and I hear a loud "whump" and feel the ground shake. When our pool was built, they added a course or two to our fence, but couldn't add rebar to the posts, so the wind picked up and ripped a 16x16x8 cinder block full of concrete off the post and it fell 7ish feet to the rocks below.

So then I replaced the cinder block and patched the wall up and built some better anchors. Took some sections of 2x2 square tube and welded 4 tabs with two mounting holes each to the posts. Drilled anchors into every other cinder block (messed up a few) on the column and mounted the posts to the cinder block columns. I've had an angle gauge on one of the posts for a couple years now and it only moves a degree or two even during monsoons.

For the post with the cinder block I replaced, I used an extra set of mounting wings, just to be safe.

The sails come with some turnbuckles and nylon rope. I used the turnbuckles as I figured they would be the "fuse" as the weakest part but I tossed the nylon rope in the trash. The only problem I have had (other than the cinder block fiasco) was on corner two. I didn't form the loop in the wire rope properly and it pulled loose twice. Now it's double clamped and this summer we'll see how it holds up.

If I sink a big post for a zip line over the pool (wife's idea) I'll end up moving the mount to that to get it off the cinder block wall.

 

[djengomac]

So then I replaced the cinder block and patched the wall up and built some better anchors. Took some sections of 2x2 square tube and welded 4 tabs with two mounting holes each to the posts. Drilled anchors into every other cinder block (messed up a few) on the column and mounted the posts to the cinder block columns. I've had an angle gauge on one of the posts for a couple years now and it only moves a degree or two even during monsoons.

If I sink a big post for a zip line over the pool (wife's idea) I'll end up moving the mount to that to get it off the cinder block wall.

This post is exactly what I was looking for. I want to put up four 8x8 sails on the side of my house to shade the dogs, but I really don't want to sink in some posts. The valley dirt is a pain to dig into as is. How long have you had the metal poles mounted to the wall now? Or have you switched out for your wife's idea. Ha! That and if you had to do anything different what would you change? Just want to see if I can learn from any of your mistakes.

Thanks, Philthy!

 

[Perpetual summer]

After pool was installed I looked into a shade sail to cover half of pool. This was 2 years ago and couldn’t find much info, especially for my area. What I found kind of scared me with the size and strength and length of posts needed. Then the size of holes to sink post,and amount of concrete needed. Posts would be a sore thumb to look at all year. Didn’t take me long to nix the idea.

 

[jeremycrook]

I installed two and LOVE THEM. So much cooler underneath, and I think the pool water was a little cooler this year. I installed them with concrete screws into the brick, and on the opposite side was metal posts that were attached to the fence.

 

[Arizonarob]

This post is exactly what I was looking for. I want to put up four 8x8 sails on the side of my house to shade the dogs, but I really don't want to sink in some posts. The valley dirt is a pain to dig into as is. How long have you had the metal poles mounted to the wall now? Or have you switched out for your wife's idea. Ha! That and if you had to do anything different what would you change? Just want to see if I can learn from any of your mistakes.

Thanks, Philthy!

Be careful of mounting poles to the walls especially if you’re in a HOA community.
I know the dirt here is a pain to dig, but with a few power tools, you can get it done easily. I have a sail over my pool that is currently attached to a couple of trees and a support pole on my patio roof. I’m going to install pvc sleeves into the ground this winter so I can hang two of them next summer. By installing the sleeves into the ground, I can simply slide the poles into the sleeves for the sails, then take them out when done for the season.

 

[chiefwej]

Don’t be fooled into thinking that those block walls have any strength. They are intended for privacy, and constructed out of 3 1/2 block that isn’t even fully mortared into place. Take a carefull look at the wall and you will notice that most of the vertical joints have no mortar. I wouldn’t attach a shade sail to a privacy wall. You are just asking for problems.

 

[Dirk]

There are shade sails and then there are shade sails. If "nylon rope" is involved, that is a tarp! Here:

https://shadesails.com

Do it right, do it once!

I have one over my pool. It solves what no umbrella can. Shade directly over the water when the sun is highest/hottest. No pole sticking out of the ground, or the pool, or a giant concrete stand. 100% wind proof. And obscures as little of the skyline as possible (because it is flat, not shaped like an umbrella!).

If properly tensioned, they require some heavy-duty support. Even without wind, there is significant force going on, with wind: very high forces. Not a pole stuck in a few ft of concrete. Or screws into a fence. Ideally, all but one of the corners should be connected to structure, like a house or patio cover. Then the other corner can fly a bit. By that I mean: most of the corners connected directly to a house, the other corner can then be attached to a cable that runs a bit to some other support. I fudged mine a bit: one to the patio cover, one about 6' away from its anchor, and the third is about 20' from its anchor. It moves vertically a bit more because of that, but it's fine.

The other two corners of mine run by 1/4" stainless steel cable to two 4x4 posts, which have three anchor points of their own: the footing (a pier block) and two down-wires: more 1/4" ss cable run down to the ground. I anchored those into the bottom of existing fence posts, where the connection is strongest. Connecting to the top of a fence is not as strong. You can just barely see them in the pic below, which is the point. They are near invisible. They attach to the bottom of the two closest fence posts. The other post comes up right through a tree and is not noticeable at all (left of pic). The third (look at the shadow on the deck) connects to my patio cover.

I'll eventually grow a plant or vine up that post in the back, and it will disappear into my landscaping.

I crank it very tight with ss turnbuckles. This is what keeps if from flapping around like a cheap tarp. I also ran a diagonal strap from the patio attachment point to the opposite corner of the patio cover, to transfer the load (pull) of the sail back across the patio. (Yes, that's how tight I tension it.)

It's not big, just enough for a few people to stand under on a sunny day. So it doesn't impact the temp of the water much. I have solar panels, so it's mostly a non-issue. And I take it down each year for at least half the year, which should almost double its lifespan. The quality is likely the best available. And after three years it's not showing even a hint of wear and tear. I'd expect to have to replace the cheapie big-box versions every few years. I expect mine to last a decade or two. You get what you pay for.

If you'd like any additional mounting details, etc, just ask...

 

[djengomac]

I was hoping to mount one end to the roof fascia. I'm super afraid it'll rip off so I plan on adding a ton of support brackets.
View attachment 86357
I was planning on adding 6' square metal tubing to mount onto the wall. What about doing a combo of an 8' tube that is sunk down about 2' (without concrete) and mounted to the wall as well?
View attachment 86358

 

[nj888]

There are shade sails and then there are shade sails. If "nylon rope" is involved, that is a tarp! Here:

If you'd like any additional mounting details, etc, just ask...

Dirk,

Very nice! Actually I would like to know the mounting details of your sail. My future pool will not be near any structures so I will have to put up posts like you.

Thank you.

 

[Dirk]

OK, you asked for it! Sorry OP, we've commandeered your thread! Keep in mind, I tend to overbuild. My yard gets pretty good wind, so far: no issues.

Here is the view of the patio attachment and the second 4x4, which is completely hidden in the tree. Its down wires attach to the 4x4 posts supporting the fence, very near the dirt. Everything is stainless steel. Everything is 1/4" or better. The carabiners allow for easy(ish) install/removal each season.




Close up of the patio connection. That's a 2x12 support beam, not facia. You can just catch a glimpse of the flat bar I installed between the 2x2 supports and the metal roof. It runs diagonal across the entire roof and attaches to the rafters of the house. I didn't want the tension of the sail pulling the patio cover out of square.




Here's the connection to the shade sail. Notice the quality of the sail. D-ring, reinforced edges. Double-reinforced clew (corner). I used to sail. The thing is literally built like a sail, and able to withstand all the forces that might get applied to it. If your "sail" has grommets, that'll be where it comes apart first. I used a good-sized swage (wire crimp) everywhere. I bought a tool to do the swaging. It was one of those simple wrench-tighten models. Not too expensive. Takes a bit of time, but works very well.




Turnbuckle assembly at the top of the posts. More SS. Those are the "real deal." Like sailboat-quality. I could have attached the down wires in any number of ways, I chose to run it right through the wood. Less hardware. It's one wire, so less connections. Also allows for easy plumbing (post aligning). Nothing to adjust, just shove the post back and forth to get it straight, then under tension there's enough friction to keep it from going anywhere.




Here's the connection at the bottom of the fence posts. Just an eye bolt. I had originally planned for turnbuckles here, too but those thing are not cheap. With a little extra effort to swage precisely, I was able to eliminate four turnbuckles. Once I got close enough with the down wire lengths, I was able to slide the wire through the holes at the top for perfect plumb, and then kick the bottom of the post around (it is only sitting on a moveable pier block) to further fine tune the post's plumb. Much more difficult to describe than to actually adjust!




Here you can see the down wires and the the pier block. As I mentioned, this will eventually be hidden somewhat by foliage. The other post is already invisible.



Had I to do it again, I might do two things differently. I would have swaged more carefully to avoid any of the wire strands from poking out the back end. It's trickier than it looks, because as you tighten, the swage expands and moves around a bit. I get poked once in a while by the strands, when I'm putting the thing up or down.

And I think I could have done without any turnbuckles. Just use the nuts of the three eyebolts to tension the sail. The problem was, I didn't know exactly how the sail would stretch, and where everything would end up. Attempting this with no turnbuckles would be ambitious, and it's only now, that I know where everything ended up, that I could even consider the possibility.

Sidebar... BIRDS! Note the anti-roosting shape at the top of my posts. Seems to work OK. I'll add nails if I ever see any birds up there. I've never seen any on the sail. I do see one once in a while on the wire, right over the pool. Not ideal. Birds tend to poop on take off. Winged rats!! It's not a hangout, fortunately. If it ever becomes one, I'll try the fishing line trick.

 

[cwescapexlt4x4]

I did an install this year adding some morning/early mid-day shade to the pool and it's using the house and palm trees with rubber bungy cords for the really strong monsoon winds we get. I will be taking them down in Oct. until next year.

 

[Dirk]

Ha, your pictures struck me funny, my yard is much the same. What must wild animals think of us fragile humans? We build swimming pools to cool off, with heaters to make the water warmer, surrounded by decks for our soft feet, but roughed up so we don't slip! Then we build shade structures to hide from the sun, but have lounge chairs to lay out in it. We ripped out all the plants to make room for everything, then planted them all back to make it look like we didn't. Some of which are trees for even more shade to cool down under, but we fire up gas heaters to warm us back up at sundown, when we drink ice cold cocktails, and sit around the fire pit 'cause we're chilly! And as if that's not enough of an affront... cots for our dogs!!

Ahhhhh, what must the other animals think? Who cares! It's good to be at the top of the food chain!! :king:

 

[otter86753]

As an alternative that has flexibility to move as the sun moves, both during the day and with the seasons, we love this base Mini Plus 99 lb. Square Umbrella Base - Pool Furniture Supply (not purchased here, but from a Palm Casual Store much cheaper) along with an umbrella that tilts http://palmcasual.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/UM9209-48110-tilt_lg-150x150-1.jpg . It is portable and rolls easily on our tabby pool surround. We did have to remove one of the "clamps" to keep the umbrella pole from rotating in the base and it just allowed the screw to come in direct contact with the pole. This is also easier to take in should a high wind event occur (read hurricane).

 

[Dirk]

Movable is nice. Can't argue that!

 

[spoonman]

Ha, your pictures struck me funny, my yard is much the same. What must wild animals think of us fragile humans? We build swimming pools to cool off, with heaters to make the water warmer, surrounded by decks for our soft feet, but roughed up so we don't slip! Then we build shade structures to hide from the sun, but have lounge chairs to lay out in it. We ripped out all the plants to make room for everything, then planted them all back to make it look like we didn't. Some of which are trees for even more shade to cool down under, but we fire up gas heaters to warm us back up at sundown, when we drink ice cold cocktails, and sit around the fire pit 'cause we're chilly! And as if that's not enough of an affront... cots for our dogs!!

Ahhhhh, what must the other animals think? Who cares! It's good to be at the top of the food chain!! :king:

Laughed out loud at this! Good stuff.

- - - Updated - - -

I did an install this year adding some morning/early mid-day shade to the pool and it's using the house and palm trees with rubber bungy cords for the really strong monsoon winds we get. I will be taking them down in Oct. until next year.
View attachment 87069View attachment 87070

cwescape, Would you mind showing a picture of how you connected the sails to the house? I'd like to do this also, but am concerned a monsoon is going to shred my house starting with the fascia. Bungee cords sounds intriguing. Perhaps they provide enough finesse when the gusts kick up?

 

[philthy]

This post is exactly what I was looking for. I want to put up four 8x8 sails on the side of my house to shade the dogs, but I really don't want to sink in some posts. The valley dirt is a pain to dig into as is. How long have you had the metal poles mounted to the wall now? Or have you switched out for your wife's idea. Ha! That and if you had to do anything different what would you change? Just want to see if I can learn from any of your mistakes.

Thanks, Philthy!

Sorry for the long delay. It's still holding up fine. I actually bought another one to cover the pool completely, but won't mount it until sometime this winter. Too cold out and all, it's getting into the low 70s and that's just too chilly to be outside.

Anyway, I guess the only thing I would do differently is pay more attention to the clamps on the wire rope. There's a right, a wrong way and my way, which is basically the wrong way, but faster. Do it once, do it right, or maybe more.

While the guy wire setup is pretty, it won't really work for you since your neighbors probably don't want that running into their backyard. Amazon sells an electric post hole digger but given the boulders in most of our soil here, I question its usefulness.

I guess the only thing I would consider doing different would be building a full frame to support the sail from all sides, like you see at city parks. That means busting out the large radius bender and rolling 20 foot sticks of 2x2 until my arms fall off, then welding the hole thing together and that's just not worth it. I don't live in an HOA, but I think the city might notice me erecting a full on structure back there.

BTW, just in case anyone is wondering, the footer for a cinder block wall is supposed to be 36 inches deep and there is supposed to be rebar running from the top block to two feet below surface. Roughly. I am not in the least concerned about a column falling. Now, the wall blocks fall if you stare at them funny, but you don't attach to those.

In thinking about your specific problem, I would place posts on the cinder block posts that are 3-4 inches above the fence height. Then weld (or bolt) a cross bar for the 35 feet of area you hope to cover. The eyebolts would attach to that cross bar so that you were not limited in where you could place them. If you just have the posts, you will have to have some odd spreads on the wire rope.

Also, while I would be concerned about mounting into fascia boards, if you use 3-4 inch lag screws and go into the rafters, it's not going anywhere. If you do have to mount into fascia, I'd run a backer lagged in on both sides and make sure you get into the backer, preferably through, with an eye bolt and washers, not a screw.

Finally, don't use the nylon rope that comes with the sails. Mine were the same brand as Dirk's, but I bought one at Home Depot and the second from Amazon. One was substantially cheaper. I also don't see the need for ninja stainless sailboat hardware. The normal zinc coated stuff has held up fine for years now.

Oh, last thing, I used plastic coated wire rope. I've been told it will only last a year before the coating falls off. It's been at least 4 and hasn't fallen off yet. I think the constant movement keeps it lubricated, like a...I dunno, a something.

- - - Updated - - -

If I wasn't going to use plastic wire rope, I would get that in stainless. Rusty rope is ugly.

 

[Dirk]

Sorry for the long delay. It's still holding up fine. I actually bought another one to cover the pool completely, but won't mount it until sometime this winter. Too cold out and all, it's getting into the low 70s and that's just too chilly to be outside.

Anyway, I guess the only thing I would do differently is pay more attention to the clamps on the wire rope. There's a right, a wrong way and my way, which is basically the wrong way, but faster. Do it once, do it right, or maybe more.

While the guy wire setup is pretty, it won't really work for you since your neighbors probably don't want that running into their backyard. Amazon sells an electric post hole digger but given the boulders in most of our soil here, I question its usefulness.

I guess the only thing I would consider doing different would be building a full frame to support the sail from all sides, like you see at city parks. That means busting out the large radius bender and rolling 20 foot sticks of 2x2 until my arms fall off, then welding the hole thing together and that's just not worth it. I don't live in an HOA, but I think the city might notice me erecting a full on structure back there.

BTW, just in case anyone is wondering, the footer for a cinder block wall is supposed to be 36 inches deep and there is supposed to be rebar running from the top block to two feet below surface. Roughly. I am not in the least concerned about a column falling. Now, the wall blocks fall if you stare at them funny, but you don't attach to those.

In thinking about your specific problem, I would place posts on the cinder block posts that are 3-4 inches above the fence height. Then weld (or bolt) a cross bar for the 35 feet of area you hope to cover. The eyebolts would attach to that cross bar so that you were not limited in where you could place them. If you just have the posts, you will have to have some odd spreads on the wire rope.

Also, while I would be concerned about mounting into fascia boards, if you use 3-4 inch lag screws and go into the rafters, it's not going anywhere. If you do have to mount into fascia, I'd run a backer lagged in on both sides and make sure you get into the backer, preferably through, with an eye bolt and washers, not a screw.

Finally, don't use the nylon rope that comes with the sails. Mine were the same brand as Dirk's, but I bought one at Home Depot and the second from Amazon. One was substantially cheaper. I also don't see the need for ninja stainless sailboat hardware. The normal zinc coated stuff has held up fine for years now.

Yes, my "guy wire" approach requires the room to use it. Plus, it is pretty ugly unless you can disguise it somehow. I only have one of mine well hidden. The other I'm still working on.

You should not attach a shade sail to facia alone, not without backing that ties it into the rafters (as philthy describes). Personally, I would not drive lag bolts through facia into the end of rafter tails (if thats what he was also suggesting). Rafter tail ends are the first to rot out and not a particularly strong connection, especially after several years. The screw itself can speed up the rotting process. You can make anything "strong enough" for a few years. The trick is the test of time. He's right about he eye bolt and washers. That's ideal.

I'm not sure the sail I own can be purchased at Home Depot or Amazon. They sell direct only, I believe. I'll be happy to be wrong about that, as I'd like to buy another and the one I have was not cheap! I believe what I bought to be the best there is, but that's only based on my knowledge about sailboats, not shade! They're certainly of high quality. Beware what you buy, there are a ton of brands, not all equal.

Did I get carried away with the sailboat hardware? Probably. But I wanted those turnbuckles to work forever, and the ones I bought will. I haven't had good luck with zinc-coated hardware, but admittedly I used to live near the ocean, so I learned to prefer stainless. I'll point out, though, that the OP lives in New Jersey, not Arizona. Simple enough for him to determine what to buy: look around the yard: do you see a lot of rusted out nails and bolts and fence hinges? Especially ones that were once galvanized or zinc coated? Then you want stainless. Otherwise, you can save some dough and buy less expensive materials.