Pentair IntelliCenter

[MyAZPool]

I've always had good experiences with Pentair support, too. New pool equipment is not in the budget anytime soon. But a guy can dream. I have the second worst ET there is, and someday I'll do something about it.

When I first discovered my IntellipH was not controlled by my ET, I had the exact same thought. They could have made it so, pretty easily, but they chose not to. It was some sort of bean counter idea, probably. They likely don't sell all that many IntellipHs, maybe not enough to divert engineer resources to making it nicer to use, and surely they'd rather sell IntelliChems, as you suggest. I think it's a short-sighted strategy, but hey, they make the stuff, they can sell it the way they want to... we buy it anyway, don't we?

Dirk,
I've been thinking about what you said regarding IntellipH compatibility.
I went to the IntellipH manual. My understanding is that if you have the IntelliChlor, there should be no problems connecting IntellipH to any Pentair automation.

The IntellipH controller cord connects to the IntelliChlor transformer in the load or power center via the 4 pin connector that you would normally plug the IntelliChlor in to.
Hence, the IntelliChlor will then plug into the IntellipH Controller. (see pp8 of the IntellipH Installation and User's guide).

But I do agree that it would be nice if there was some functionality at the automation level to set the IntellipH parameters rather than relying on a separate controller.

Would really like to hear from others who have this actual configuration who can shine some light on this issue.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Dirk]

According to a reliable Pentair vendor that I spoke with, the IntelliCenter upgrade/retrofit kits for the EasyTouch and IntelliTouch Load Centers and Power Centers will be available in March 2019. He got his information directly from the "horse's mouth":joker: apparently.

Sorry Dirk

No worries, I'm pretty much resigned to the likely possibility that there will be no upgrade path for my scrawny PSL4... so this is all a pipe dream no matter what...

 

[Dirk]

Dirk,
I've been thinking about what you said regarding IntellipH compatibility.
I went to the IntellipH manual. My understanding is that if you have the IntelliChlor, there should be no problems connecting IntellipH to any Pentair automation.

The IntellipH controller cord connects to the IntelliChlor transformer in the load or power center via the 4 pin connector that you would normally plug the IntelliChlor in to.
Hence, the IntelliChlor will then plug into the IntellipH Controller. (see pp8 of the IntellipH Installation and User's guide).

But I do agree that it would be nice if there was some functionality at the automation level to set the IntellipH parameters rather than relying on a separate controller.

Would really like to hear from others who have this actual configuration who can shine some light on this issue.

That's exactly how it all goes together (and how mine does), they both piggy back off the existing IC transformer (or ET connection if you have the built-in transformer) and daisy chain together as you described. It is, in fact, required that you have an IC, there is no stand-alone IpH solution. The IpH not only needs (and doesn't come with) the transformer, but it also communicates directly with the IC flow switch and temp sender. It can't function without an IC. You can, however, use an IpH/IC/transformer combo without an ET, the ET is not required. In that setup, you can control the IC with the IpH controller much as you can with an ET: like you get the 1% output increments that you don't get with a stand alone IC.

The IpH does not interfere at all with the relationship between the IC and the ET, nor with IC and ScreenLogic, that all works the same, the IC is still controlled by ET and configured by ScreenLogic.

What is missing is any communication between IpH and ET, or IpH and ScreenLogic.

Like you, I suspect IpH can be "compatible" with any Pentair automation, because it's not "compatible" with any now, if that makes sense...

Let me know if I can clarify any of that for anyone.

 

[MyAZPool]

That's exactly how it all goes together (and how mine does), they both piggy back off the existing IC transformer (or ET connection if you have the built-in transformer) and daisy chain together as you described. It is, in fact, required that you have an IC, there is no stand-alone IpH solution. The IpH not only needs (and doesn't come with) the transformer, but it also communicates directly with the IC flow switch and temp sender. It can't function without an IC. You can, however, use an IpH/IC/transformer combo without an ET, the ET is not required. In that setup, you can control the IC with the IpH controller much as you can with an ET: like you get the 1% output increments that you don't get with a stand alone IC.

The IpH does not interfere at all with the relationship between the IC and the ET, nor with IC and ScreenLogic, that all works the same, the IC is still controlled by ET and configured by ScreenLogic.

What is missing is any communication between IpH and ET, or IpH and ScreenLogic.

Like you, I suspect IpH can be "compatible" with any Pentair automation, because it's not "compatible" with any now, if that makes sense...

Let me know if I can clarify any of that for anyone.

Dirk...

Agreed and definitely makes sense.

Now the only decision I need to make is IntellipH vs IntelliChem. There have been many that have advised me to just go with IntellipH (too many issues with IntelliChem). Plus, there is the approximately $1000.00 difference to also consider. I'll need to draft a decision-making matrix and list all of the pros vs cons in order to try to make a sound decision.

At least my plumbing has the "Flow Cell Outlet Tap" and "Flow Cell Inlet Tap" (along with the Water Temp and Acid Injection taps) already plumbed in, in case I do decide to go with the Chem vs pH.

In the mean time = Manually adding my MA doses every few days .
Great post Dirk. Thanks!

 

[Dirk]

IntellipH vs IntelliChem, that's easy (though mostly conjecture). The ORP component of IntelliChem is notoriously funky (though I don't know exactly what the complaints are). And it's sensitive to CYA, like you can't have much CYA in your pool. IntelliChem can make use of an IC, but not an IpH. And it's expensive.

The IC/IpH combo works great. I haven't touched or added chem's to my pool in months, and I've yet to find my pool out of spec (I did fill the IpH tank once). I had to tweak each at the beginning of summer, but they each found their optimum output level quickly, and I didn't have to mess with them much all summer. I'm just now adjusting them down for fall. I wouldn't trust IChem any more or less than IC/IpH, so I'd still test the same amount each week to make sure they were working, so no convenience difference there. Yes, the ScreenLogic integration and control is desirable, and to see readings would be great, but again, I would still want to verify with manual testing, so what's the real benefit? (Not enough to justify the cost, for me.) I'm pretty sure the IChem pH probe needs regular calibration. And the ORP probe has got it's own set of problems (I've heard). ORP doesn't actually measure FC, so that's another issue to know about.

Another way to go about it: the IChem doesn't use the Iph, but does use an acid tank from Pentair that looks identical to it (without the motor). So theoretically, you could buy the IpH, integrate it with your IC60, run it for a summer and see if it meets your need. If not, you buy the IChem and convert the IpH to just a dumb tank, and you wouldn't be out all that much money. Just the difference in cost between the IpH and the acid tank, which is not much I think. Ability to convert IpH to ICHem tank would have to be verified by Pentair, I only know they look alike. Maybe sell the IpH motor and controller on Craig's List.

I doubt you'd upgrade after a summer with the IC/IpH combo, so you're not really gambling all that much...

 

[dw886]

...
Another way to go about it: the IChem doesn't use the Iph, but does use an acid tank from Pentair that looks identical to it (without the motor). So theoretically, you could buy the IpH, integrate it with your IC60, run it for a summer and see if it meets your need. If not, you buy the IChem and convert the IpH to just a dumb tank, and you wouldn't be out all that much money. Just the difference in cost between the IpH and the acid tank, which is not much I think. Ability to convert IpH to ICHem tank would have to be verified by Pentair, I only know they look alike. Mayb sell the IpH motor and controller on Craig's List.
...

Older IntelliChems had the pumps mounted to the controller. The newer units have a stenner pump on the acid tank.

I went down this same road, and ultimately went with the IntelliChem / EasyTouch8. I've had it up and running for my first summer last year. My mentality was "everyone says that this ORP thing doesn't work, but it must since they sell it and commercial pools use it. If I read / tinker enough I can figure it out". So I started reading white papers on the testing / development of ORP, feedback from this site, etc.

Here's the long / short of it.
PROS:
- IntelliChem rocks at pH. I set it, fill my acid tank, and I'm good for the year. When pH rises, the Intellichem detects this, and doses the amount that I programmed it to dose.
- IntelliChem shows everything in ScreenLogic

CONS:
- Sometimes the IntelliChem won't take changes via screenlogic because of the password that I have on the IntelliChem controller. This only happens about 10% of the time when I'm trying to tweak something, but it's annoying, and results in me walking outside and unlocking the intellichem with the PIN. I could remove the PIN, but then I have to worry about someone messing with the controller outside...
- ORP is real tough to use, esp with covered pools. The sensors require constant cleaning (every 1-2 weeks). Post cleaning the readings swing quite a bit, usually upward. Covered pools (ours is covered 99% of the time - basically unless someone is in it) stops / slows off-gassing, and this seems to keep ORP from dropping as much as it should as FC diminishes. In my experience, I'll see the ORP stay constant, but see that FC may be dropping, and then I'll manually adjust ORP. Then we'll open the pool, and I'll forget to move the ORP setting downward, gasses escape, and when it gets back to the same ORP level by running the Salt Cell, my FC will be over the target. Opposite happens if we don't use the pool for an extended period of time. My testing will show that ORP stays constant, but the actual FC levels have dropped...
- ORP Setting for me is basically a way to control the salt cell. I move the value up/down in ScreenLogic when I need an adjustment - I still rely on testing regularly, because that sensor doesn't seem to correlate well with FC in my pool

Summary:
If I had to do it again, I'd make the same decision just for the pH automation and being able to see the levels directly in ScreenLogic. In my opinion, it's enough not to have to worry about someone running a water feature for an extended period of time and my pH going out of control without me noticing. With the intellichem, it handles that by itself. That sensor also seems very accurate (in contrast to the ORP sensor, which swings after cleaning) - matches manual testing and pool store testing via their "machine".

 

[Dirk]

Good write up dw.

Older IntelliChems had the pumps mounted to the controller. The newer units have a stenner pump on the acid tank.

That's basically what an IpH is. Is the new acid tank an IpH without the IpH controller, (same pump and motor) or is it something else? Can you unplug an IpH controller and just use what's left of an IpH as the IntelliChem acid injector?

Did you run into any trouble with the ORP and CYA?

It would be good to hear from an IntelliChem user that doesn't cover his pool...

 

[harrisb411]

For those of you looking to purchase, I ordered an i5P through Pool Cleaning parts. I had to call in and shipping is about a week out right now. Total cost $1899. The bundles which include salt generator also include WiFi link kit (confirmed thru tech support). For cost comparison the Easytouch 4 with IC40 and Screenlogic2 connection kit was $300 cheaper.

 

[MyAZPool]

For those of you looking to purchase, I ordered an i5P through Pool Cleaning parts. I had to call in and shipping is about a week out right now. Total cost $1899. The bundles which include salt generator also include WiFi link kit (confirmed thru tech support). For cost comparison the Easytouch 4 with IC40 and Screenlogic2 connection kit was $300 cheaper.

Hmmmm. You got all of the advantages of the new IntelliCenter for just an additional $300.00. NICE! Yea, I really like Pool Cleaning Parts out of L.V. Great prices and very pleasant to deal with on the phone. Please keep us informed on the IC install, connectivity, application etc.

Looks like you and TonyWI will be the first to experience EC. I'm jealous . I just have the IntelliTouch (load center ONLY) and looks like I have to wait until around March 2019, until Pentair comes out with their upgrade/retrofit kits (according to Mike at PCP).

 

[dw886]

...
Did you run into any trouble with the ORP and CYA?
...

I keep my CYA at 30, because that's where all of the ORP white papers were written (I know it's low for TFP standards). When I first started, I'd check ORP, check FC via a TF100, and record the ORP and FC numbers. After diligently doing that for a few months, it quickly became apparent that my ORP levels weren't correlating with FC - to the point where you'd think that it was crazy that anyone remotely thought this would work. I'm chalking this up to the covered pool. I've gone through replacement ORP probes, the cleaning, etc, and it just isn't consistent.

...
That's basically what an IpH is. Is the new acid tank an IpH without the IpH controller, (same pump and motor) or is it something else? Can you unplug an IpH controller and just use what's left of an IpH as the IntelliChem acid injector?
...

The acid tank / pump is a stenner pump controlled by a relay on the IntelliChem controller. When it doses, it's simply activating the relay, which in turn, activates the pump on the container...

 

[sanspeur]

Those interested in the PS version, I just ordered a i5PSIC40 from PolyTec , cost $2399. Paid for 2 day expedited shipping to FL as I would like to install it this weekend. They didn't have it in stock in their warehouse (they also said shipping form Pentair has been a little slow getting these in stock), but they were able to "find" it somewhere else (thinking at Pentair) and ship from there...Now for some questions: I currently have the J&J Color Splash XG 12V pool and spa lights. What am I going to need to run those (at least turn on/off with the Intellicenter)? They currently go into my Intermatic load center and connect to a transformer. Thoughts?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I keep my CYA at 30, because that's where all of the ORP white papers were written (I know it's low for TFP standards). When I first started, I'd check ORP, check FC via a TF100, and record the ORP and FC numbers. After diligently doing that for a few months, it quickly became apparent that my ORP levels weren't correlating with FC - to the point where you'd think that it was crazy that anyone remotely thought this would work. I'm chalking this up to the covered pool. I've gone through replacement ORP probes, the cleaning, etc, and it just isn't consistent.

You’re not crazy, ORP probes simply are too sensitive to the many variations in redox potential caused by an outdoor pool water environment. The redox voltage of a water sample varies depending on what is dissolved in it as well as what oxidizers are present. The oxidizer one would be most interested in is hypochlorous acid (HOCl). But, because outdoor pools need cyanuric acid to stabilize chlorine levels, the buffering reactions drop the HOCl levels to 100ppb or less. Thus, anything else present that can fluctuate in concentration will cause the ORP to change. It’s like trying to listen to a whispering child when you are surrounded by a full orchestra....there’s simply not enough “signal” from the HOCl to overcome all the noise and ambient fluctuations. The reason why they are sometimes used in commercials pools is because, in many jurisdictions, cyanuric acid is not allowed in public/commercial pools. Therefore the HOCl levels are 10 to 15 times higher. Also, in commercial pools, ORP is generally NOT allowed for sanitizer reporting requirements as only a qualified liquid test kit is allowed to be used. ORP can be used as a control point for dispensing equipment, but some human must actually test the water and report it.

This is why TFP does not recommend ORP control - in theory it should work but in practice it’s usually a big failure. So anyone getting one of these new IntelliCenter systems should simply ignore the IntelliChem option and stick with simple, duty-cycle or time/dispense methods of control.

 

[MyAZPool]

I currently have the J&J Color Splash XG 12V pool and spa lights. What am I going to need to run those (at least turn on/off with the Intellicenter)? They currently go into my Intermatic load center and connect to a transformer. Thoughts?

Congrats on being one of the first to make the hyper-jump to the IntelliCenter...

I typed a bunch of stuff to convert a 120v light but now noticed that you have a 12v J&J system with the transformer, so I am not sure of the best way to make your conversion, so maybe someone else more familiar can help you out.

NOTE: The colors and light show scenes as displayed in the IntelliCenter light menus and screens, are not the same as the J&J Color Splash colors and and light show scenes. i.e Pentair “Party” = J&J “Super Nova”, Pentair Magenta = J&J Miami Pink.
You can find the color and scene conversion chart on pp13 of the Color Splash Install and Operation Guide.

By the way, I’m impressed if you are going in make a full conversion from the Intermatic LC to the IntelliCenter LC and including all re-wiring, the configurations, network connectivity etc, in 1 weekend? Wow….

Please share your experiences here.

 

[sanspeur]

Congrats on being one of the first to make the hyper-jump to the IntelliCenter...

Thanks! Well I have been eyeing an automation system for some time now, and my "push" was my SG failed within the last couple of days so I figured now was as good a time as any. I also wanted to get the salt power integrated into the LC (to get rid of the external PS). Sooo... here I am. As far as installing in a weekend, I'm actually giving myself 4 days (thru Tues) lol just in case - and even that may be pushing it . I've a background in electronics (former Navy crypto maint tech) so it'll just be the time taken to do the work (and the back and forth to the hardware store for various items haha). Seeing how much some have gotten quotes for installation, I'll be glad to do it myself though (understanding that Pentair won't provide more than a 3/6 month warranty anyway - sadly ). I think my main question regarding the lighting was I suppose I am going to have to wire an external transformer to the LC for the lights whereas my current LC has the transformer mounted within the enclosure. Was hoping to not have to have the external box....

BTW, THANKS for the note on the J&J light scenes. I didn't know that conversion chart was there!

 

[MyAZPool]

Thanks! Well I have been eyeing an automation system for some time now, and my "push" was my SG failed within the last couple of days so I figured now was as good a time as any. I also wanted to get the salt power integrated into the LC (to get rid of the external PS). Sooo... here I am. As far as installing in a weekend, I'm actually giving myself 4 days (thru Tues) lol just in case - and even that may be pushing it . I've a background in electronics (former Navy crypto maint tech) so it'll just be the time taken to do the work (and the back and forth to the hardware store for various items haha). Seeing how much some have gotten quotes for installation, I'll be glad to do it myself though (understanding that Pentair won't provide more than a 3/6 month warranty anyway - sadly ). I think my main question regarding the lighting was I suppose I am going to have to wire an external transformer to the LC for the lights whereas my current LC has the transformer mounted within the enclosure. Was hoping to not have to have the external box.... Edit Post

BTW, THANKS for the note on the J&J light scenes. I didn't know that conversion chart was there!

1. First, Many thanks for your service and given your previous "rate", no doubt you can tackle what is ahead of you.

2. Yea, guess you will need a transformer. Just thinking out loud here and I have no doubt there will be others that can present some other options.

- Why couldn't you run your 12V wiring from the light into the low voltage raceway of the load center. Then remove your present Intermatic transformer from it's load center and mount in the line voltage area of the IC load center where your system and IntelliChlor transformers are located. (there should be enough room but not sure). A little bit of mod will be required but hey, since you're doing the install, the warranty is not that long anyway).

Connect the hot from the transformer (I assume it is 120v) to load 1 of one of your relays (aux 1-4). But of course if it's 220v, then to Load 1 and load 2. Of course power from the circuit breaker will connect to Line 1 (or Line 1 and Line 2 for 220v). Run the low voltage output wiring from the transformer up and into the low voltage area (above the relays) and connect to your low voltage light leads). You will then be able to control the On/Off and color and light show scenes from IntelliCenter since all of the color and scenes are activated though a series of on and off commands.

- Get another compatible 12v transformer (a little research should point you in the right direction) and mount and install as above.

- OR lastly, there is a new bluetooth enabled J&J ColorSplash XG Controller :thumbdown: (not a good option only because I don't think you would want 2 diff systems AND you ultimately want to control your pool light with the IntelliCenter of course.).

 

[PoolguyinCT]

You’re not crazy, ORP probes simply are too sensitive to the many variations in redox potential caused by an outdoor pool water environment. The redox voltage of a water sample varies depending on what is dissolved in it as well as what oxidizers are present. The oxidizer one would be most interested in is hypochlorous acid (HOCl). But, because outdoor pools need cyanuric acid to stabilize chlorine levels, the buffering reactions drop the HOCl levels to 100ppb or less. Thus, anything else present that can fluctuate in concentration will cause the ORP to change. It’s like trying to listen to a whispering child when you are surrounded by a full orchestra....there’s simply not enough “signal” from the HOCl to overcome all the noise and ambient fluctuations. The reason why they are sometimes used in commercials pools is because, in many jurisdictions, cyanuric acid is not allowed in public/commercial pools. Therefore the HOCl levels are 10 to 15 times higher. Also, in commercial pools, ORP is generally NOT allowed for sanitizer reporting requirements as only a qualified liquid test kit is allowed to be used. ORP can be used as a control point for dispensing equipment, but some human must actually test the water and report it.

This is why TFP does not recommend ORP control - in theory it should work but in practice it’s usually a big failure. So anyone getting one of these new IntelliCenter systems should simply ignore the IntelliChem option and stick with simple, duty-cycle or time/dispense methods of control.

& that’s what keeps EcoLab in business..

 

[sanspeur]

1. First, Many thanks for your service and given your previous "rate", no doubt you can tackle what is ahead of you.

2. Yea, guess you will need a transformer. Just thinking out loud here and I have no doubt there will be others that can present some other options.

- Why couldn't you run your 12V wiring from the light into the low voltage raceway of the load center. Then remove your present Intermatic transformer from it's load center and mount in the line voltage area of the IC load center where your system and IntelliChlor transformers are located. (there should be enough room but not sure). A little bit of mod will be required but hey, since you're doing the install, the warranty is not that long anyway).

Connect the hot from the transformer (I assume it is 120v) to load 1 of one of your relays (aux 1-4). But of course if it's 220v, then to Load 1 and load 2. Of course power from the circuit breaker will connect to Line 1 (or Line 1 and Line 2 for 220v). Run the low voltage output wiring from the transformer up and into the low voltage area (above the relays) and connect to your low voltage light leads). You will then be able to control the On/Off and color and light show scenes from IntelliCenter since all of the color and scenes are activated though a series of on and off commands.

- Get another compatible 12v transformer (a little research should point you in the right direction) and mount and install as above.

- OR lastly, there is a new bluetooth enabled J&J ColorSplash XG Controller :thumbdown: (not a good option only because I don't think you would want 2 diff systems AND you ultimately want to control your pool light with the IntelliCenter of course.).

Thanks, it was my honor to serve and quite frankly a blast. If I had to do it all over again, I would not hesitate to.

I had thought of trying to remove the current transformer from my current LC and see if it will mount inside of the new enclosure. I'm not sure if there will be enough room to do so. Does anyone know if the externally mounted GFCI outlet on the lower right side of the Intellicenter LC is a requirement for code? If not, there would be space there to be able to mount the lighting transformer and run the wiring as you suggested. Does anyone else know about the code issue?

 

[Dirk]

Thanks, it was my honor to serve and quite frankly a blast. If I had to do it all over again, I would not hesitate to.

I had thought of trying to remove the current transformer from my current LC and see if it will mount inside of the new enclosure. I'm not sure if there will be enough room to do so. Does anyone know if the externally mounted GFCI outlet on the lower right side of the Intellicenter LC is a requirement for code? If not, there would be space there to be able to mount the lighting transformer and run the wiring as you suggested. Does anyone else know about the code issue?

I would expect the code covers IF there is a receptacle, not that there has to be one. So you shouldn't swap out the GFCI for a less-deep non-GFCI, if that's what you were thinking, but I think you could take the whole thing out without violation. A call to your local planning dept should be able to get that confirmed.

But that's only if the outlet is the only device protected by GFCI. If there is something wired to the LOAD side of the GFCI, which is quite possible, then you can't remove it or replace it with non-GFCI.

If you don't know what LINE and LOAD means in terms of a GFCI, then you shouldn't be messing with it (no offense intended). Pool wiring needs to be "just so."

 

[sanspeur]

I would expect the code covers IF there is a receptacle, not that there has to be one. So you shouldn't swap out the GFCI for a less-deep non-GFCI, if that's what you were thinking, but I think you could take the whole thing out without violation. A call to your local planning dept should be able to get that confirmed.

But that's only if the outlet is the only device protected by GFCI. If there is something wired to the LOAD side of the GFCI, which is quite possible, then you can't remove it or replace it with non-GFCI.

If you don't know what LINE and LOAD means in terms of a GFCI, then you shouldn't be messing with it (no offense intended). Pool wiring needs to be "just so."

(It's officially talk like a Pirate Day today...) Dirk me hardy, Arrr no offense taken as I don't believe I asked ye anythin bout the LINE and LOAD side of the GFCI (Yar I know the difference tanks to 20 years o' me naval experience in electrical/electronic circuits ). As she be delivered, the Intellicenter LC does NOT have a GFCI installed. Matey me question be is if one is needin to be installed. Argh! irat:

Edit: Darn, I just realized that International Talk like a Pirate Day was yesterday - ARGH!!

 

[Dirk]

I might need a translation, matey!

My box has one, and I think for two reasons: a convenience at the pad, and my pool light was wired to the load side, to extend GFCI protection to it. If you don't want/need either, then I think you're good. Unless, like I said, your local code requires there be a receptacle on or near your pad (which I suppose is possible). Even if I could point you to the NEC that states one way or the other, your local code could override it, so you'd still want to check with your local jurisdiction to be sure.