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Thread: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

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    Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    I want to buy a heat pump to maintain temperature on our 15k gallon pool and heat our 200 gallon spa to ~100f. Since I'm looking to heat the spa somewhat quickly (30-45 min hopefully), I want as many BTUs as I can reasonably get for a decent price. Without getting into the gas vs electric debate (I'd go nat gas if it was an option, but it's not), it looks like I can get either of the following models for the same price ($2800 shipped). Which do you recommend and why? My notes are below

    Hayward Heat Pro 21404t 140k BTU
    +7k more BTUs
    +Higher COP (6.0)
    +Looks much better - like a piece of pool equipment designed for residential use (not that important, but still)
    +Looks like it may have a more user friendly interface (does it? again, not very important)
    - Less reliable?
    ? Plastic / Resin Housing - not sure if this is a plus or minus for longevity of looks and functionality

    Raypak Standard 8350TI-E 133k BTU
    +More reliable / needs fewer repairs?
    -7k fewer BTUs
    -Lower COP (5.5)
    -Ugly - like an air conditioner designed for industrial use
    -Interface? Can't even find pictures of where to set the temperature... (not important as long as it can be done w/out external components)
    ? All metal housing - is rusting a problem? Would spray painting it with high-temperature paints void the warranty?

    The reliability is very important to me, but that seems to be the only thing Raypak has going for it IMO. How big is the difference? What about the cost of repairs?
    15k gallon (?) kidney-shaped inground concrete (paint) pool & spa combo undergoing resurfacing. 6 floor jets, 2 side returns around steps, 1 skimmer also near steps. Spa has 4 jets. 1 hp Sta-Rite Supermax, 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 cartridge filter (holds up to CC200), ComfortZone gas heater - old and broken, Master Pool return distributor (not sure what to call it). Pool Before Resurface

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    Raypak is the favorite for gas heaters here on TFP, not necessarily heat pumps. My Hayward heat pump works great, we are very happy with it and the built in timer.

    Yes, plastic will definitely rust less than metal. Couldn't resist.

    It takes 1 btu to heat 1 lb of water 1 degree.
    200 gal of water weighs 1668 lbs
    140k btu * 80% efficiency = 112k btu will heat a little over 7 degrees per hour
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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    With heat pumps you will generate a considerable amount of condensation, over a gallon of water per hour, a plastic/resin enclosure is a plus in the design.

    COP is a significant number and 0.5 is a considerable difference. You need to compare the COP charts they publish side by side to make sure you are comparing the same numbers. The COP number is the efficiency number for the heat pump. Heat pumps put more BTU into the pool water than they consume in electricity. In the case of the Hayward unit they are claiming their heat pump put 6 time the amount of btu's into the water than it will consume in electric energy. So a 22kW electric water heater will use as much electricity as your 140kW heat pump.

    Aesthetic appearance is in the eye of the beholder. If one looks so bad that you dont want it near you than that can mean more than other factors. In reality a heat pump is nothing more than a central A/C unit in terms of how it functions. It should look like one. The difference being you should put a heat pump in the sunniest warmest spot in the yard. They take heat from the atmosphere and put into your pool. As opposed to central A/C which takes heat from your house and puts it into the atmosphere.

    Interface isn't super critical. It will have a pool temp setting and a spa temp setting. It will likely have a wired relay input to allow automatic switching from pool to spa temp settings. The same as most gas heaters. There is nothing fancy or special about pool heater interfaces.

    I doubt you would have reliability issues with either brand but look into the fine print of the warranty as they might require "licensed" installation for the full warranty.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    We have the raypac 8350 (but with the chiller function) and LOVE it. I don't think it is unattractive but then again I don't think any pool equipment is particularly good looking. If aesthetics are really a concern for you, I believe raypac offers the same model with a more sleek steel exterior as an upgrade.

    Regarding performance, we are very happy with the unit. We started swimming in March with outside temps between 50 and 60 during the day and in the 40s at night. The heater took the pool from a start temp of 62 to 80 degrees within 72 hours. With average temps of 55 and overcast skies, we gained 1 degree every 45 minutes during the day. At night, with the autocover closed, we might lose 1-2 degrees total when temps dropped to the 40s.

    On warmer days, the heat pump can raise the temp more quickly, but I think generally the rate is 1-3 degrees an hour for the pool. We do not have a spa, so I am not sure how quickly it could heat one. I think it is ideal for heating a pool for reasonable energy costs.

    Also, regarding condensation, we barely have any, and certainly not a gallon per hour. We also have 6 heat pump units for our house and no problem with them either.

    FWIW, when we were looking at heater options, almost everyone I spoke with advised against a heat pump, saying they do not extend the swim season and do not heat the pool quickly or sufficiently. That has not been our experience and we found we will be able to add at least two months to the season given how the heater is in fact performing.
    IG Gunite 20x40 pool with Pebbletec finish (Tahoe blue with luminous glass in mixed jade); Pentair DE Filter and Pump; Intellibrite LED lights; RayPac 8350 Heat and Cool Heat Pump; NPT Arctic Ice glass tile; Coverstar autocover; Cambridge Renaissance Pavers in Onyx Lite; bluestone coping.

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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    Raypak is the favorite for gas heaters here on TFP, not necessarily heat pumps. My Hayward heat pump works great, we are very happy with it and the built in timer.

    Yes, plastic will definitely rust less than metal. Couldn't resist.
    LOL
    True, but it can also fade, warp, and crack after years of exposure to the heat and sun.

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    It takes 1 btu to heat 1 lb of water 1 degree.
    200 gal of water weighs 1668 lbs
    140k btu * 80% efficiency = 112k btu will heat a little over 7 degrees per hour
    hmm I should have run the calculation. That's definitely a little disappointing. Still, I don't know if propane is a realistic answer for us due to the high costs.

    Are you sure you did your math right? I think you missed a 0. Assuming I understand the calculation, 1668 lbs should take 1668 BTUs to heat 1 degree in 1 hour. 1668 / 112000 ~= .01489 hours to raise 1 degree. * 20 degrees ~= .2979 hours (30 minutes). If I use 11200 (11.2k) instead then I get the 7 degrees in an hour you got.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    With heat pumps you will generate a considerable amount of condensation, over a gallon of water per hour, a plastic/resin enclosure is a plus in the design.

    COP is a significant number and 0.5 is a considerable difference. You need to compare the COP charts they publish side by side to make sure you are comparing the same numbers. The COP number is the efficiency number for the heat pump. Heat pumps put more BTU into the pool water than they consume in electricity. In the case of the Hayward unit they are claiming their heat pump put 6 time the amount of btu's into the water than it will consume in electric energy. So a 22kW electric water heater will use as much electricity as your 140kW heat pump.
    They claim to use the same air temp / water temp / humidity measurements. Per their respective documentation found here for Raypak and here for Hayward:

    Model 80f air 80f h20 80% 80f air 80f h20 63% 50f air 80f h20 63%
    Hayward hp21404t 6.0 5.8 4.4
    Raypak 8350ti 5.5 5.2 not given

    According to these #s, not only does the Hayward have a larger COP to start with, it drops less under the same conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    Aesthetic appearance is in the eye of the beholder. If one looks so bad that you dont want it near you than that can mean more than other factors. In reality a heat pump is nothing more than a central A/C unit...
    Very true. Appearance isn't that important. My unit will be clearly visible from the pool, but I can just put a small fence or some plants around to hide it. The only spot I see appearance being "functional" is if I want to sell the unit later on CL or something. I'd probably get more $ if it looks almost new with a modern design vs. rusted out with a design from 20 years ago. Also, it is a noticeable differentiating factor between these 2 units. However, power and reliability are far more important to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    Interface isn't super critical... There is nothing fancy or special about pool heater interfaces.
    I figured as much. The only thing I don't like is that I can't even find a single picture with the interface for the Raypak unit. Almost all the pictures on every site & Google images are from the same angle - the side with the water pipes. Just seems strange to not even bother to show any other angles, especially the one the user interacts with. My main concern is simply that it _has_ an interface on the unit since I have no central pool control system in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    I doubt you would have reliability issues with either brand but look into the fine print of the warranty as they might require "licensed" installation for the full warranty.
    That's good to hear. Surprisingly, Hayward doesn't seem to require a licensed installer. As long as the installation is done according to their instructions / specifications they don't care who did it. They do care who repairs it though. I've also read that it can be really difficult to get Hayward to follow through on their warranty due to not having their technicians in the area. However, I hope that wouldn't be a problem in FL where so many people have pools...

    Raypak on the other hand requires a "qualified" installer and reduces and/or doesn't honor their warranty if the product is purchased online (something that should be illegal IMO). Now that i looked into this, I think this may be the single biggest deciding factor for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeelawyer View Post
    ...I don't think any pool equipment is particularly good looking. If aesthetics are really a concern for you, I believe raypac offers the same model with a more sleek steel exterior as an upgrade.
    Agreed. The steel exterior one is their super quiet model I believe, which is also $500 - $1000 more for the same BTUs.

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeelawyer View Post
    Regarding performance, we are very happy with the unit. We started swimming in March with outside temps between 50 and 60 during the day and in the 40s at night. The heater took the pool from a start temp of 62 to 80 degrees within 72 hours. With average temps of 55 and overcast skies, we gained 1 degree every 45 minutes during the day. At night, with the autocover closed, we might lose 1-2 degrees total when temps dropped to the 40s.

    On warmer days, the heat pump can raise the temp more quickly, but I think generally the rate is 1-3 degrees an hour for the pool. We do not have a spa, so I am not sure how quickly it could heat one. I think it is ideal for heating a pool for reasonable energy costs... we found we will be able to add at least two months to the season given how the heater is in fact performing.
    Good to hear! I love hearing about first hand experience and it sounds like yours was great

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeelawyer View Post
    Also, regarding condensation, we barely have any, and certainly not a gallon per hour...
    1 gallon per hour sounded like an awful lot. I'm assuming humidity could affect this though. I do live in an area with pretty high humidity. Not sure if you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeelawyer View Post
    FWIW, when we were looking at heater options, almost everyone I spoke with advised against a heat pump, saying they do not extend the swim season and do not heat the pool quickly or sufficiently. That has not been our experience...
    It sounds like they were on-demand users that wanted to fire it up Friday night and have a cold pool become warm for an event on Saturday, and you're more of a maintenance user that wants it a certain temperature all year. Different requirements. Also, being in the north I'm a little surprised the heat pump works as well as you stated. Out of curiosity, why did you get the model with the cooler? Living in VA I doubt you use that feature much...
    15k gallon (?) kidney-shaped inground concrete (paint) pool & spa combo undergoing resurfacing. 6 floor jets, 2 side returns around steps, 1 skimmer also near steps. Spa has 4 jets. 1 hp Sta-Rite Supermax, 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 cartridge filter (holds up to CC200), ComfortZone gas heater - old and broken, Master Pool return distributor (not sure what to call it). Pool Before Resurface

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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    I live on the coast and have a fair amount of humidity. There is always a wet spot under the heat pump when it runs and more than once I have seen a steady trickle of water coming off the equipment pad from condensation. In the manual for my heat pump it says to expect a significant amount of condensation. Condensing the water vapor out of the air is where the unit is getting a lot of its heat from. You will notice from your chat the highest COP is when relative humidity is 80% and higher. Lots of free energy in that there water vapor.

    If you are planning on putting up a fence to block sight lines it needs to not obstruct free air flow to the unit. I believe mine said min 6 feet of fee air on all sides and at least 8 feet above the unit but preferably clear sky above.

    I will also agree that I'm more than pleased with the performance of my heat pump. When used with a solar cover the pool stays toasty warm and I barely even notice the change in the electric bill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A little side benefit I found while working outside on a hot summer day standing over the exhaust of the heat pump will cool you off in seconds and dry out a sweat soaked shirt in a min or two.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

    Photos of 2016 Build, Inside Your Breaker Panel, Free Copy of 2017 NEC code
    TFP is AD Free and is funded solely by member support click here to help

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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    ...If you are planning on putting up a fence to block sight lines it needs to not obstruct free air flow to the unit. I believe mine said min 6 feet of fee air on all sides and at least 8 feet above the unit but preferably clear sky above.

    I will also agree that I'm more than pleased with the performance of my heat pump. When used with a solar cover the pool stays toasty warm and I barely even notice the change in the electric bill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A little side benefit I found while working outside on a hot summer day standing over the exhaust of the heat pump will cool you off in seconds and dry out a sweat soaked shirt in a min or two.
    I was thinking more like one of those 3' white picket garden fences with some plants around the heater and pump area. It shouldn't obstruct air flow much and while the heater would still be visible, it would be notably less so. The Hayward unit needs 2' of clearance on each side and 6 ft vertically.

    That's a cool side benefit that I never thought of!
    15k gallon (?) kidney-shaped inground concrete (paint) pool & spa combo undergoing resurfacing. 6 floor jets, 2 side returns around steps, 1 skimmer also near steps. Spa has 4 jets. 1 hp Sta-Rite Supermax, 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 cartridge filter (holds up to CC200), ComfortZone gas heater - old and broken, Master Pool return distributor (not sure what to call it). Pool Before Resurface

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Heat Pump Recommendations - Hayward 21404t vs Raypak 8350TI-E

    Are you sure you did your math right? I think you missed a 0. Assuming I understand the calculation, 1668 lbs should take 1668 BTUs to heat 1 degree in 1 hour. 1668 / 112000 ~= .01489 hours to raise 1 degree. * 20 degrees ~= .2979 hours (30 minutes). If I use 11200 (11.2k) instead then I get the 7 degrees in an hour you got.
    Challenge accepted!
    I am sure I did my math wrong. I lost the 0 in the .0.01489 when I went to the next calculation. Yes, 20 degrees in 30 minutes is the right number.

    We also gained a month on either end of the pool season by adding a heat pump and a solar cover. And my big, fat, lazy dog loves to sleep behind the heat pump. He is glad we got a heat pump with a horizontal fan! Didn't take him long to figure that out last fall.
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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