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Thread: Heater Questions

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    Join Date
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    Heater Questions

    I am looking for some help/advice on possibly adding a heater to our pool setup. We have a 27' AGP pool (approximately 20k gallons). We are located in the western suburbs of Chicago, we use a solar cover, and the pool is in full sun from early morning until 5 PM or so. An ideal heater would increase our swimming season (swimming on weekends in late April/May and September) and occasionally raise water temp a bit for night swims in summer. My questions are as follows:

    1. From the research I've done it looks like a gas heater would be best. Right now I am looking at the Raypak 266,000 BTU Digital Electronic Ignition Natural Gas Pool Heater (RAY-009217). Is this a good model for our application? I've seen it for approximately $1,725...is this a reasonable price?

    2. How much of the install can I do myself? I would definitely hire a plumber to hook up to the gas meter and the heater itself. Can I buy and bury the piping (approximately 100' from meter to heater) myself? How much should I budget for the install?

    3. How much should I budget for gas prices per year? We have Nicor gas and I don't have the cost per unit right now....I'm just trying to get an idea of how much.

    Thanks in advance!
    Wil-Bar 27'x54" Quest AGP
    Hayward 1HP Powerflo Pump
    Hayward 256 T Swimpro Sand Filter

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    Re: Heater Questions

    What about a Heat Pump pool heater? Does the air temp stay above 50 degrees during the time of year that you would like to use the pool? Swimming Pool Heater VS. Heat Pump - Leslies Poolapedia and Heat Pump Swimming Pool Heaters | Department of Energy

    The hardest part of the install is getting the electrical to it (240V, about 50A) which mostly depends on where the electrical service comes into the house (or where the panel is located) and if you have the capacity to add another circuit.
    20K gal In-ground pool with raised Spa overflowing into pool; two Jandy Sheer Descent waterfalls; Pentair IntelliTouch i7+3, IntelliChlor, IntelliPH, 3 SAM/SAL lights, Pentair FNS60Plus filter, two 1.0 HP WhiperFlow pumps, Jandy/Compool auto-valves, RayPak Heatpump, RayPak 406A LP spa heater, Polaris 360 PS Cleaner. Patio and deck lighting by Volt; Volt 600W landscaping transformer; Webber grilling station

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Thanks CountryBumkin. Air temps are definitely above 50 during the day but may go below that from time to time at night. We actually opened our pool already and pool water temp is in low 60s.
    Wil-Bar 27'x54" Quest AGP
    Hayward 1HP Powerflo Pump
    Hayward 256 T Swimpro Sand Filter

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Do you have gas now (cooking/heating)? If so, having your gas company run the gas line to heater location may be the easiest option.

    I just installed my new propane heater last month (except that I hired a propane company to install an underground tank, run the line, and make the final hookup). A permit is required where I live for any gas work.

    Setting the heater in place and connecting the plumbing, remote control wiring, and 120V feed was pretty easy. It took me about 4 hours (a lot of that just studying the job) however I already had plumbing in place from my old heater which only needed minor rework so that saved a bunch of time.

    I also installed my pool heat pump myself a few years earlier. That was easier than the gas heater since I have an electrical panel (incoming to house) on the same side as the pool equipment (which is same panel that feed the pool panel), and other than running some rigid conduit, the electrical service is a lot easy to run than gas line.
    20K gal In-ground pool with raised Spa overflowing into pool; two Jandy Sheer Descent waterfalls; Pentair IntelliTouch i7+3, IntelliChlor, IntelliPH, 3 SAM/SAL lights, Pentair FNS60Plus filter, two 1.0 HP WhiperFlow pumps, Jandy/Compool auto-valves, RayPak Heatpump, RayPak 406A LP spa heater, Polaris 360 PS Cleaner. Patio and deck lighting by Volt; Volt 600W landscaping transformer; Webber grilling station

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Yes, we have natural gas heating.

    It looks like the hear pumps are quite a bit more expensive than the Raypak 266,000 BTU Digital Electronic Ignition Natural Gas Pool Heater I was looking at.
    Wil-Bar 27'x54" Quest AGP
    Hayward 1HP Powerflo Pump
    Hayward 256 T Swimpro Sand Filter

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Yeah. That's the drawback - they say you pay more upfront but make it back in the energy savings.
    I would ask a local pool builder which is better choice for you. Seeing that you already have gas on the property, that is probably the easiest way to go (assuming gas line is no on the wrong side of the lot).
    20K gal In-ground pool with raised Spa overflowing into pool; two Jandy Sheer Descent waterfalls; Pentair IntelliTouch i7+3, IntelliChlor, IntelliPH, 3 SAM/SAL lights, Pentair FNS60Plus filter, two 1.0 HP WhiperFlow pumps, Jandy/Compool auto-valves, RayPak Heatpump, RayPak 406A LP spa heater, Polaris 360 PS Cleaner. Patio and deck lighting by Volt; Volt 600W landscaping transformer; Webber grilling station

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Hello, I just joined and have a Heater question too.
    I have a Jandy LXI 400 Heater that needs a few parts but I had it running for 1 hour to test it.
    I just wanted to say, a 400,000 BTU heater spun my gas meter so fast it was crying!
    I had 75 water going into it, and ONLY 83 coming out! While 1,200 heat wasted out the vent.
    Seriously they call this an efficient heater????
    It only has 6 pipes running over the flames.
    Shouldn't it have a whole lot more?

    Anyway to help you decide, DO NOT use a Natural gas heater>

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Heater Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by DJEWELL View Post
    Hello, I just joined and have a Heater question too.
    I have a Jandy LXI 400 Heater that needs a few parts but I had it running for 1 hour to test it.
    I just wanted to say, a 400,000 BTU heater spun my gas meter so fast it was crying!
    I had 75 water going into it, and ONLY 83 coming out! While 1,200 heat wasted out the vent.
    Seriously they call this an efficient heater????
    It only has 6 pipes running over the flames.
    Shouldn't it have a whole lot more?

    Anyway to help you decide, DO NOT use a Natural gas heater>
    Djewell

    If you have an actual question, please start a new thread and ask it rather than here. We normally do, that by moving your post, but it's not going to make sense by itself. Your question if you have one, needs to be posted elsewhwere in its own thread.
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    Re: Heater Questions

    What are the benefits of buying a heater from a local pool builder/supplier as opposed to online? Any thoughts on buying a heater on Craigslist?
    Wil-Bar 27'x54" Quest AGP
    Hayward 1HP Powerflo Pump
    Hayward 256 T Swimpro Sand Filter

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    Re: Heater Questions

    I bought my first Jandy Gas heater (used) locally. I thought it was a good buy. It was on a community pool so I figured the water was well balanced and it looked like it was well maintained. But I started having problems right off. I was able to fix everything myself, then the housing started to rust away (it was a couple of years old) - so I ended up buying a new heater on-line. In the end, I would have saved money just buying a new unit to start with.

    Buying on-line can save you money (maybe 10-15%) but you lose the warranty (manufacturers say the heater must be installed by a qualified professional installer to honor warranty). If you can do the installation yourself, then this is the way to go. I'm not worried much about not having a warranty. Most of this equipment is really well made, and the warranty is not that long anyways (like 1 year on the electronics/controls - which is what is most likely to fail if anything is going to fail).

    But if you need to hire someone to install it, then let that person buy it too. Then there is no "finger pointing" if something doesn't work right.
    20K gal In-ground pool with raised Spa overflowing into pool; two Jandy Sheer Descent waterfalls; Pentair IntelliTouch i7+3, IntelliChlor, IntelliPH, 3 SAM/SAL lights, Pentair FNS60Plus filter, two 1.0 HP WhiperFlow pumps, Jandy/Compool auto-valves, RayPak Heatpump, RayPak 406A LP spa heater, Polaris 360 PS Cleaner. Patio and deck lighting by Volt; Volt 600W landscaping transformer; Webber grilling station

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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Heater Questions

    With craigslist with something like a heater you might get lucky and you might get a lemon. Its your call and your money. Do your best to do your homework on what kind of life the heater had.

    If you are replacing a heater that is already installed buying online will save you money and should be an easy in and out. Some brands say you need a professional installer to get the longer warranty some don't.

    If you are doing a brand new installation esp with a new gas line by the time you get all your permits and have all your inspections hiring a local installer is probably worth it unless you are really handy and up to date on all the local codes and regulations. You are also removing the liability from you and placing it on your contractor in the event something goes wrong with the gas installation. You can also ask your builder if they will allow you to buy the equipment for them to install. Some will some won't. Their mark up and labor to install the unit will only be a small percentage of the cost for the rest of the job. Be up front with the contractors you talk to and let them know exactly what you intend to buy and what you expect them to provide. If you change your mind on anything going on with the job let them know as soon as you make any changes.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

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    Pool Tool's Avatar
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    Re: Heater Questions

    Hello, I am in your neighborhood. I bought a heater online and installed myself for a significant savings. I can't remember the website now, but it shipped straight to my house and setup was done in about day. I am on propane, so costs a bit more but I already had a high pressure propane line the old heater so I didn't have to run a new gas supply. Your Nicor supply will likely be at low pressure, so it will take a 1 1/2" or 2" line to run your heater. At the end of the day, the cost for the line is in the labor digging then burying it - the sized of the tubing is fairly moot.

    If you don't have space or are otherwise against solar panels on the roof, a natural gas heater is probably your best bet. Pros - immediate warm up and it can run anytime; Cons - purchase and operating costs can be high depending on usage. Heat pumps are an option too, but are reliant on warm ambient temps and not good for spot heating for weekends etc. They are better at keeping water warm vs. warming it up. Using the cover will help to hold the heat considerably.

    About 2 years ago I installed a Raypak 399K Digital Heater and am very happy with it. You may need to swap your gas equipment, but that can be done. I use propane, but natural gas assuming a 400K btu heater should cost you about:
    - 1 Therm = 100,000 btus
    - 400,000 btu per hour heater / 100,000 btus per therm = 4 therms per hour
    - 4 therms per hour * $0.27 per therm = $1.08 per hour to run the heater.
    - This is just the gas cost, which is typically only 75% of your bill. Delivery charges, taxes, etc.
    - Total cost per hour => $1.08 / .75 = $1.44 per hour

    - 20000 gallons * 8.34 lbs/gallon = 166,800 lbs of water
    - 1 btu raises 1 lb of water 1 deg F
    - Heater Input = 400,000 btus * .85 (85% heater efficiency) = 340,000 btus into pool
    - 340,000 / 166,800 = ~2 deg F per hour
    - This omits other losses due to evaporation, loss thru walls, etc. but is pretty close.

    This was my evaluation of the 400K btu heater. Gas prices are old. Be sure that you not only include the gas cost per therm, but the delivery costs as well. This almost doubles the cost. Lastly, you may need a new gas meter or a 2# (2 pound) gas service. The 2# service increases delivery pressure to the house from ~.25# to 2# which will decrease the diameter of your supply line to the heater but will require a separate regulator to reduce the pressure into the house for your appliances.

    Many things to consider, but I like the fact that I can run the heater for a few hours and warm the water for weekends and occasional days here or there.
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Thanks! I might consider solar panels but our pump is approximately 60 feet to the house (and that's just the corner) and there is no way I'm going up on our steep, two-story roof twice a year.
    Wil-Bar 27'x54" Quest AGP
    Hayward 1HP Powerflo Pump
    Hayward 256 T Swimpro Sand Filter

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    Re: Heater Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by pmsmith2032 View Post
    Thanks! I might consider solar panels but our pump is approximately 60 feet to the house (and that's just the corner) and there is no way I'm going up on our steep, two-story roof twice a year.
    Some owners put the panels on an angled platform just a foot or so off the ground (like an angled deck). I suppose it depends on how much open-unused space you have in back yard near the pool.

    I considered solar (I'm in FL) but I just had a new roof put on and the roofing co. said mounting panels on (drilling holes in the) roof would void the roof warranty. Plus in FL your supposed to remove the panels from the roof if there is a hurricane possibility (warning) and that would be a real pain (we can have several warnings a year) - but I doubt most pool owners actually do that.
    So I decided to go with a heat pump (and the heat pump ($2,500) was a lot cheaper than the solar panel option which was quoted around $6K at the time).
    20K gal In-ground pool with raised Spa overflowing into pool; two Jandy Sheer Descent waterfalls; Pentair IntelliTouch i7+3, IntelliChlor, IntelliPH, 3 SAM/SAL lights, Pentair FNS60Plus filter, two 1.0 HP WhiperFlow pumps, Jandy/Compool auto-valves, RayPak Heatpump, RayPak 406A LP spa heater, Polaris 360 PS Cleaner. Patio and deck lighting by Volt; Volt 600W landscaping transformer; Webber grilling station

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