Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Thousand Oaks, ca
    Posts
    15

    Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    My jacuzzi was originally UV and Nature2 and had no ozone. I had the ozone installed last week to reduce the amount of chlorine exposure. After reading so much about the dichlor then chlorine method I got pretty familiar with keeping sanitization levels sustained. Checking with the Taylor kit, I got comfortable with how much sanitizer was being used up based off usage or non-usage. Now with the ozone, I'm thrown off. The dealer recommendation is to shock once a week with chlorine and then 1 Tbsp of MPS after each use.

    I started doing that but it's hard to track MPS/chlorine levels. I do have hot springs MPS test strips from when I bought the Jacuzzi. However, after a 2 days of no use I wasn't getting a Monopersulfate reading on the strip. The water is crystal clear and has the MPS smell, but I decided to add 4ppm of chlorine, then 10ppm the next day for the weekly shock. I used 1 tbsp dosage 2 days before, 20 min of usage. Rule of thumb is 6 tsp per 1 hour/person.

    Dealer says to run jets for 10min after adding MPS.

    1) How should I be measuring MPS levels in the future?
    2) The day before my chlorine shock w/ bleach. Do I need to adjust my MPS dosage?
    3) If I intend to not use the spa on a daily basis (like every other day), then what?
    4) Am I following the right procedure?
    5) CYA. I'm at around 40ppm. Will MPS affect anything?

    I've seen different methods from shocking every two weeks, to not running jets after adding MPS, adding a small dose of MPS before going in and then the regular dose after, etc. I just want to do it the right way, and keep it simple.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    14,094

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    The ozone and UV are going to work against you. In a clean hot tub, you can expect ozone to react with chlorine and cause a fairly measurable FC demand. If you have the ability to turn OFF the ozonator, I would not run it all the time or else the ozone is going to eat up all your chlorine.

    As for MPS, that is another problem. MPS interferes with the standard DPD-FAS test. MPS does not oxidize the dye and turn it pink, but it does react with the titrant causing you to use more drops of the R-0871 than when MPS is not present. So, on the FAS-DPD with FC present, the MPS shows up as additional FC. If no chlorine is present (sample does not turn pink), then the MPS will show up as CCs. Taylor sells an MPS interference kit that removes the interference from the test so you can measure FC and total oxidizer (TO) separately. The amount of MPS present will then be TO-FC.

    On a more general note, why are you running all of these competing sanitizer systems?? If you use the dichlor/bleach method and you have a decent UV source, then that's really all you need to keep CCs low. Ozonators are, at best, toys that do not produce much ozone and really only should be considered when running a bromine hot tub because the ozone will regenerate spent bromide back into bromine. The Nature2 system (MPS and silver ions) should not ever be used with chlorine because the chlorine will react with the silver ions and form inert silver chloride which will get filtered out as it is an insoluble compound in water at neutral pH.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Thousand Oaks, ca
    Posts
    15

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    The ozone and UV are going to work against you. In a clean hot tub, you can expect ozone to react with chlorine and cause a fairly measurable FC demand. If you have the ability to turn OFF the ozonator, I would not run it all the time or else the ozone is going to eat up all your chlorine.

    As for MPS, that is another problem. MPS interferes with the standard DPD-FAS test. MPS does not oxidize the dye and turn it pink, but it does react with the titrant causing you to use more drops of the R-0871 than when MPS is not present. So, on the FAS-DPD with FC present, the MPS shows up as additional FC. If no chlorine is present (sample does not turn pink), then the MPS will show up as CCs. Taylor sells an MPS interference kit that removes the interference from the test so you can measure FC and total oxidizer (TO) separately. The amount of MPS present will then be TO-FC.

    On a more general note, why are you running all of these competing sanitizer systems?? If you use the dichlor/bleach method and you have a decent UV source, then that's really all you need to keep CCs low. Ozonators are, at best, toys that do not produce much ozone and really only should be considered when running a bromine hot tub because the ozone will regenerate spent bromide back into bromine. The Nature2 system (MPS and silver ions) should not ever be used with chlorine because the chlorine will react with the silver ions and form inert silver chloride which will get filtered out as it is an insoluble compound in water at neutral pH.
    Based off what you're saying, is that Nature2 is not designed to be used in conjunction with MPS, just chlorine and UV. This doesn't correlate with the Nature2 manual here:

    http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/~/m...L/TL-2700.ashx

    Before Test the water with Nature2 Spa Test Strip each use equivalent). If the MPS level is low, add 1 tablespoon of MPS2 to spa per 250 gallons (approx.1000 liters).Use the Nature2 Spa Test Strip (or equivalent) to test the spa water after each addition of MPS. If the test strip indicates levels below the OK range, add 1tablespoon MPS2 to spa per 250 gallons and re-test. Enter spa only after test strip indicates a sufficient level of MPS. After Add 1 tablespoon of MPS to spa per 250 gallons each use (approx. 1000 liters).Once Adjust the pH, total alkalinity, and hardness asper week needed. A convenient way to test pH and total alkalinity is the Nature2 Spa Test Strip.Every 4 Drain and refill your spa. Replace Nature2 Spa and months repeat sanitizer start-up.

    As needed Shock treat with 1.5 tablespoons of an EPA registered source of dichlor 1 per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 liters) to remedy problems which may occur when bathing loads are high, when successive MPS test strip reading indicate high demand, when water appears hazy or dull, when unpleasant odors or eye irritation occur, after heavy wind and rainstorms or if foam develops.

  4. Back To Top    #4
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    14,094

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    No. Let me break it down this way - there are three (3) EPA-approved sanitation methods*** for hot tubs -

    1. Chlorine
    2. Bromine
    3. MPS/silver

    (*** I think Baquacil makes a spa product based on the biguanide/peroxide sanitation system, but I don't know of anyone that uses that much.)

    The last one, MPS/Silver, is what Zodiac calls their "Nature2" system. Silver ions, when in the presence of a strong oxidizer like MPS or chlorine, can kill pathogens and stop disease transmission. However, hot tubs that run the silver ion system should be operated and kept at or above 96F at all times since that is what gives the correct kill times. Chlorine will react with silver and form silver chloride which is an insoluble salt in spa water that is near neutral pH (7-8 range). So, in order to make the system perform better, Zodiac switches MPS for the role of chlorine as the oxidizer. Remember that you need two things to create a sanitary body of water - you need a sanitizer to kill pathogens and an oxidizer to destroy bather waste. In the Nature2 System, the silver ions act as the sanitizer and the MPS acts as the oxidizer.

    So you can use dichlor (or any form of chlorine) to "shock" the tub when the CCs get too high because the MPS can't handle it all (MPS is not as good as chlorine as an oxidizer). The downside to using chlorine is that it is going to take some of the silver out of the water which means the cartridge that the silver ions comes from (likely a mixture of silver nitrate and some other slowly dissolving additives) is going to get used up faster. This is also why the EPA does not allow silver to be used with chlorine in that system because the chlorine would make the concentration of silver ions too low to be effective.

    UV and ozone do not sanitize water. They have no ability to form a residual concentration in the water and their pathogen kills times are far too low to be effective. They can kill certain chlorine-resistant pathogens (like cryptosporidium) but that's not really a huge problem in a residential hot tub. UV and ozone can act as a secondary oxidation source, but that just helps to clear bather waste faster. In a chlorine hot tub, if you have a UV or ozone system running, you can use as much as half the amount of chlorine for post-soak bather waste removal than you would with chlorine alone.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Thousand Oaks, ca
    Posts
    15

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    No. Let me break it down this way - there are three (3) EPA-approved sanitation methods*** for hot tubs -

    1. Chlorine
    2. Bromine
    3. MPS/silver

    (*** I think Baquacil makes a spa product based on the biguanide/peroxide sanitation system, but I don't know of anyone that uses that much.)

    The last one, MPS/Silver, is what Zodiac calls their "Nature2" system. Silver ions, when in the presence of a strong oxidizer like MPS or chlorine, can kill pathogens and stop disease transmission. However, hot tubs that run the silver ion system should be operated and kept at or above 96F at all times since that is what gives the correct kill times. Chlorine will react with silver and form silver chloride which is an insoluble salt in spa water that is near neutral pH (7-8 range). So, in order to make the system perform better, Zodiac switches MPS for the role of chlorine as the oxidizer. Remember that you need two things to create a sanitary body of water - you need a sanitizer to kill pathogens and an oxidizer to destroy bather waste. In the Nature2 System, the silver ions act as the sanitizer and the MPS acts as the oxidizer.

    So you can use dichlor (or any form of chlorine) to "shock" the tub when the CCs get too high because the MPS can't handle it all (MPS is not as good as chlorine as an oxidizer). The downside to using chlorine is that it is going to take some of the silver out of the water which means the cartridge that the silver ions comes from (likely a mixture of silver nitrate and some other slowly dissolving additives) is going to get used up faster. This is also why the EPA does not allow silver to be used with chlorine in that system because the chlorine would make the concentration of silver ions too low to be effective.

    UV and ozone do not sanitize water. They have no ability to form a residual concentration in the water and their pathogen kills times are far too low to be effective. They can kill certain chlorine-resistant pathogens (like cryptosporidium) but that's not really a huge problem in a residential hot tub. UV and ozone can act as a secondary oxidation source, but that just helps to clear bather waste faster. In a chlorine hot tub, if you have a UV or ozone system running, you can use as much as half the amount of chlorine for post-soak bather waste removal than you would with chlorine alone.
    I invested in MPS/Nature2 so I'm going to use those for now. From what I can tell, is the MPS and Nature2, ozone, and UV are fine together. It's that ozone and chlorine, counteract each other and there's no use for chlorine with the current system.

    After I'm done with my 4lbs of MPS, I could consider unhooking the ozone to save money with the dichlor/bleach method that I was following originally.

  6. Back To Top    #6
    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    14,094

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    Quote Originally Posted by calisoldier83 View Post
    I invested in MPS/Nature2 so I'm going to use those for now. From what I can tell, is the MPS and Nature2, ozone, and UV are fine together. It's that ozone and chlorine, counteract each other and there's no use for chlorine with the current system.

    After I'm done with my 4lbs of MPS, I could consider unhooking the ozone to save money with the dichlor/bleach method that I was following originally.
    Depends on how accessible to ozone generator is but you could simply disconnect the power to the corona discharge tube. The biggest problem with ozone generators is that they are very much underpowered and not at all optimized for generating O3. Most CD generated ozone units use atmospheric air as the input source. Air is only 18% O2 and contains lots of water vapor. Both the low O2 levels and the presence of water vapor will seriously affect the efficiency of the CD unit. In fact, most people with O3 generators never know that they fail because the difference it makes is not really noticeable. A UV light source is a much better investment as long as the output fluence of the bulb is in the UV-C range is acceptable (~260nm is the germicidal UV wavelength...it also causes cancer too as 260nm is perfectly match to disrupting the formation of DNA chains).

    If I were in your shoes, I would finish off the Nature2 system as well since you paid for it and then go back to dichlor/bleach with UV and see how that works. At least with the dichlor/bleach method you have a test kit that can give you the exact information you need to properly dose your water. Also, you might consider at some point purging the tub with Ahh-some biofilm remover just to ensure that the tub's plumbing is clean. Biofilms can easily form in hot tub plumbing and they are impossible to remove even with high doses of chlorine.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Holland, MI
    Posts
    78

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    You can still use the MPS post soak as an oxidizer after your done with the Nature2. I have a bunch left over from when I used Nature2. I use it once a week post soak and use less chlorine on that day. I found that if I use it more than that it lowers my PH to much. As a matter of fact I often use it instead of acid if I need to lower my PH.

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    appleton wisconsin
    Posts
    176

    Re: Proper procedures and chem test for MPS non-chlorine with ozonator, UV, Nature2

    I feel like the sellers of these things send their customers down the wrong path.

    The reason that they don't just tell you to sanitize with bleach (stabilized), is cause they can't compete with grocery store bleach prices.

    They just want to sell you all this other garbage.

    People buy new hot tubs, then get overwhelmed trying to keep track of all these stupid bottles, then don't even get the right test kits (stupid paper strips).

    There are real consequences to not keeping the water sanitized.

    So long as CYA value is known, chlorine is kept at the right ratio, and ph is between 7.5 and 7.8 you're good. You don't have to worry about anything else. That is enough to keep track of.

    Bromine works too, and kept track of the same way.

    Chlorine is mild on the skin with cya in the water. NO ONE can come even close to guessing how much Chlorine is in the water. You can't tell without testing.

    If you can smell it bad, your PH is probably low. Clean your filter. Open it up and run the air jets to drive out the smell before you get in.
    340 gallon stand alone spa.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •