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Thread: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

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    New2Me's Avatar
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    IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    I would like to know what others would do in my shoes, please comment.
    We ordered a replacement liner, installed for $3766. Included in the installation is bottom repair, as I told them that there are "dents" now, and was assured that they would "smooth it all out."

    Installation was scheduled for Monday 5/4, but on the Friday before the Office called and pushed it to Tuesday, because of weather delays during the week. I uncovered and cleaned the pool over the weekend, and removed a section of fence to give them better access. On Monday the Office called and said that the installers might show up Tuesday afternoon to prepare, but would not finish until Wednesday. Late Tuesday morning I get called from home, the installers have arrived and started!
    [attachment=2:2kqu89dl]liner out.jpg[/attachment:2kqu89dl]
    By the time that I get home at 1:30, the old liner is out and they are working on the bottom. It's sunny and warm. At 3 they tell me that they could not get a water truck, so they will not patch the bottom today, but will do it in the morning. They tell me that they want to put the liner in on the wet patch, and then add water, so that it will be smooth.

    Wednesday morning they show up and it's raining. not very hard yet, though. They mix up some patch, and start to apply it, but then it starts raining harder, and water is puddling in the deep end, so they leave a pump in and call it a day.

    Thursday they show up, pump out the water, and start patching. Water is seeping in under one wall and trickling down the slope when I looked at 8. [attachment=1:2kqu89dl]patching.jpg[/attachment:2kqu89dl]
    When I check again at 9:30, the liner is already in, the vacuum is running and weights are placed in the shallow end. [attachment=0:2kqu89dl]Liner.jpg[/attachment:2kqu89dl]
    The first of 3 loads of water goes in at 10, the last at 12. This is what it looks like-> (next post)
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    22 x 40 IG vinyl lined, 23,570 gal.
    1 hp. Pac-Fab Challenger pump 300# sand filter
    Intex 8110 SWG, Hayward CL220 offline feeder
    Hayward 250K Btu gas heater
    Aquabots

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    New2Me's Avatar
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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    After 3 loads of water(10,500 gallons total) there were several large wrinkles, all in the deep end. The installers said that they would disappear as the weight of the filling water pushed the liner into the wall.[attachment=1:32jwnkl7]10500.jpg[/attachment:32jwnkl7]
    Here it is full, after I cleaned and balanced it. The wrinkles are still apparent.[attachment=2:32jwnkl7]wrinkle.jpg[/attachment:32jwnkl7]
    I called and talked to the Office about the wrinkles, and was told that they would have a boss come take a look at it. A few days later the same guys who did my liner were opening the neighbors pool, so they sent their boss over to look at the wrinkles. He thought that he could move them out with my vacuum, and went and put his dive gear on.[attachment=0:32jwnkl7]diver.jpg[/attachment:32jwnkl7]
    He spent over 2 hours working to remove the wrinkles, with some success. He could not get the one that troubled me the most, the one right by the main drain that looked to be a fold, because it WAS SET IN CONCRETE!!! He did get most all of the ones off of the slope, and it did look better. But he did say that that was all they could do, with out draining the pool, and that it would not hurt the liner to leave them. I thanked him for his effort, and they went on their way.
    I figured that I could live with the wrinkles. That is until we had people over this weekend, and turned the light on. OH MY GOD, the bottom is wrinkled all over the deep end, and where all of the patching is visible in the above posted picture the corners are uneven. There are also several "bumps" poking out, where it looks like someone wiped patch off of a finger onto the wall.

    Am I being unrealistic in expecting that a replacement liner should not have wrinkles, that the walls and bottom should have been patched SMOOTHLY? Can a liner be removed and re-set? Should I try and have that done? I really expected more out of this pool company after all they "received the prestigious Number 1 Builder Award in the Midwest Region for the years 2001, 2002 and 2003. We have also won Top Ten Builder Awards for the Midwest region in 1991, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003."

    I haven't called them back yet, I wanted to poll the members here first, to see if I'm way off, and just need to live with it.
    Thanks for letting me vent!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 x 40 IG vinyl lined, 23,570 gal.
    1 hp. Pac-Fab Challenger pump 300# sand filter
    Intex 8110 SWG, Hayward CL220 offline feeder
    Hayward 250K Btu gas heater
    Aquabots

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    They are a bunch of HACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    What they did for the money they charged you IS NOT ACCEPTABLE

    The patching should have been done on the good weather day and allowed to set if they had to come back the next day to drop the liner. If rain was a possibility, a tarp would have been put down to protect the fresh patches, or, better yet, put the liner in and make any adjustments the next day before the water arrived.

    With wrinkles like you show, it looks like the liner wasn't even measured correctly

    If they have to use weights, they aren't sealing the pool correctly (believe me.. I know - in VA we used the weights (we were mostly shotcrete pools but did some liners) - the company I work for in Ct NEVER has had to use weights to keep the wrinkles out )

    If they're the best in the mid-west, maybe I should move out there and open a real pool company. [I notice that their awards are all over 6 years old - what probably happened is that the guys doing the good work left that company and started their own and now all they have is laborers instead of the quality workers who won them the awards)

    At the very least have them redrop the liner - if they cut out the drains and returns, dump the water and have them remeasure the pool and order the correct liner for your pool (this involves "A-B" measurements - make sure they do it right this time )

    Sorry you got a cr*p install!
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    This is the pool OEM rep in my area. They didn't come measure the pool, because they had done the install and had it on file. Friends have a similiar shape pool from the same company, and had a liner replaced last year by another contractor(a friend.) He measured it, but the liner manufacturer didn't make it right(he said) the first two times, but the third one fit fine, and looks great. They paid at least $1000 less than we did, but didn't have use of the pool for over a month.

    My wife wanted ours done by Mothers Day weekend for a Graduation Party we hosted. The liner they took out was installed in 1993 and was badly faded, had about 20 mis-matched patches and developed a wrinkle in the shallow end last year when it pulled out of the track over winter. The new one looks great during the day, if you don't look too closely at the deep end. At night however, the wrinkles really stand out, as do the "finger wipes".

    I'm going to call them now and see what they tell me.
    Waste, Thanks for the help!
    22 x 40 IG vinyl lined, 23,570 gal.
    1 hp. Pac-Fab Challenger pump 300# sand filter
    Intex 8110 SWG, Hayward CL220 offline feeder
    Hayward 250K Btu gas heater
    Aquabots

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    Looking at the third picture of your original post shows that there was not anywhere near enough vacuum under the liner. The deep end is hanging straight from the coping to the bottom of the hopper. When proper vacuum is placed, every contour of the pool should be visible. It is at that time that any wrinkles should be adjusted. Basically without enough vacuum the liner gets stretched in only one direction, the direction of the water pulling it.
    20 x 45 Inground vinyl, ~34,500 gallons,
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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    Since my last post I've called and talked to the woman in the office who took care of ordering and scheduling the liner install on three(or more occasions.) She would tell me that the guy in charge of installs and repairs( the owners son, the diver who moved some of the wrinkles to the edges)
    would call me back, but he never did. I sent a certified letter to the owner on Tuesday, asking if they were going to repair the pool, and got a call today(Friday) from the son saying that they would be here Monday to drain the pool and repair it.

    He also requested that I diagram the areas that need repair. I think that I'm going to print this picture-[attachment=0:57insytw]repairs.jpg[/attachment:57insytw]
    ant tell him that it looks like ALL of the areas along the floor to wall transition that were patched need repair, along with the concrete wrinkle. I can also see several little dips that weren't filled, too.
    The really sad part of this is that it probably wouldn't have taken these guys another hour to due it right, before the liner went in. Now the son has already spent two hours diving, in water too cold for my comfort, trying to fix their screw-up, plus he's had me pestering the poor office help, and his dad, and they've still got to drain the pool!

    Waste,
    I'm assuming that they are going to pull part of the liner, and not all of it, to work under it. I saw where Casey in NY was going to try the same with his pool, and you had some info for him to be supplied at a later time...Got any tips for me?

    I plan to video the repairs this time, and pay close attention to how the liner sets(hoping for no wrinkles.) Some of my buddies think that I should demand a new liner (one that was measured first?) and say that it will never be as good as it would have been, that all of the cut outs won't line up and it will leak. Is there any thing I should watch out for?
    Thanks for all of your help!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 x 40 IG vinyl lined, 23,570 gal.
    1 hp. Pac-Fab Challenger pump 300# sand filter
    Intex 8110 SWG, Hayward CL220 offline feeder
    Hayward 250K Btu gas heater
    Aquabots

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    There should have not been any wrinkles in the liner before ANY water was added, water weight does not take out wrinkles. Really shotty job.
    -Kevin
    X-Pert Pool Service
    x-pertpool.com
    X-Pert Pool on Facebook and @XPertPoolServic on Twitter
    22,000 gal / 16' x 32' / Vinyl / Hayward s244t /Pentair SuperFlo 1 hp

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    Glad they are finally going to address the issues!

    With a brand new liner you could get away with removing the whole thing and still be able to get it back in place. The problem with your liner is that it had wrinkles when they cut in the returns and skimmer(s) - there may be space to move them but I wouldn't even bet $.05 to win $50 that by removing the wrinkles, they don't end up having to move the liner away from the pre-cut holes

    As Kevin (X - PERT) implied, this is why we use vacuums to set the liner BEFORE the water goes in

    I imagine what they'll do is peel the liner back from 1 whole side to access the areas that need to be repaired (I'd do it from the right side as there are no cutouts on that side) The MD is going to give them HECK (sorry for taking sadistic pleasure from this, but they did it to themselves )

    IF they manage to correct the problems and don't have to buy you a new liner - they are pool gods and I will take back every negative comment I've posted about them

    I think that they'll have to patch at least 1 cut in to get the liner to fit right with no wrinkles (if they do that either get a LOT!! of $$$ off the bill or [preferable] have them buy you a new liner - and , as I said, MEASURE the pool first -- you should also get considerable $$ off for this as you'll loose use of the pool until they get the right liner and figure out how to properly install it ]

    If you do videotape the fix - please post it
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    Sorry I didn't get video, but here are some pics. I had a problem with finding "rechargeable" batteries that were actually charged(right out of the charger!), so I didn't get as many good pics as I wanted.
    They got here just before eight, and started pumping; the shallow end was empty ~9, and they asked me to point out the "pebbles" and rough areas. Then they popped the lined loose and one guy crawled under it to find out what the other gut was pointing to from above. Two or three small(1/8-1/4") rock pieces were the culprits, the rough areas were "patch" that "ground water washed out the smoothness of." They took a sanding/grinding wheel to them. None of the fittings through the liner(returns,rope hooks, steps, skimmer or light) were removed.
    [attachment=2:2nl2gxke]shallow.jpg[/attachment:2nl2gxke]

    The most grinding/sanding was done on the "wrinkle ridge" and floor/wall transitions in the deep end. Again, "I think that ground water washed the patch from the upper areas down, and it made this problem when it collected under the liner." was the reason that the guy who did it the first time was using, instead of "We were in a hurry, and did a crappy job." He was also the one who got to do the grinding, directed by the guy who "usually works in the office. but helps out in the field when there's a problem."
    [attachment=1:2nl2gxke]deep.jpg[/attachment:2nl2gxke]

    They vacuumed under the liner everywhere they could reach, and then put more patch in some areas that needed it(and didn't get it the first time.) Once they thought it looked good under the liner, they put it back in track and sucked it in with the vac (the red Craftsman vac is the only vac they used, both for clean-up and liner positioning!) Then it was checked from the topside for "pebbles" and voids and anything else that they thought I wouldn't like. The office guy was doing a really good job of improving the customer relationship.
    [attachment=0:2nl2gxke]checking.jpg[/attachment:2nl2gxke]

    With the sun shining down on the empty liner it was easy to spot every little grain of sand, or little dip in the bottom. Several times the liner was popped out again to reach under and remove what usually was a small ball of "patch" or sand and dust that crumbled easily. Several of these "bumps" just required smushing them with a finger, they dissolved under the liner. Once it looked good and relatively smooth, they worked on getting the liner fit snugly, and wrinkle free. This concerned me a little, as they kicked it into the corners, but it did fit well.
    Next came 4 truck loads of water.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 x 40 IG vinyl lined, 23,570 gal.
    1 hp. Pac-Fab Challenger pump 300# sand filter
    Intex 8110 SWG, Hayward CL220 offline feeder
    Hayward 250K Btu gas heater
    Aquabots

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    Of course, the result was no more wrinkled concrete bottom, and a smoother liner.
    [attachment=0:21nvd0t3]result.jpg[/attachment:21nvd0t3]
    Like the caption says, it should have looked like this the first time! The bottom is not perfect, but I don't think that it was probably much better when it was put in back in 1993 (by this same company.)
    I never said anything about the 740 #s of NaCl, 16 #s of CYA, 88#s of borax and 5 gallons of MA that went down the drain, but I'm not going to. I just want to enjoy the pool, and let my frustrations go!
    Thanks for letting me vent, and for buckin' up my spine enough to get it done batter!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 x 40 IG vinyl lined, 23,570 gal.
    1 hp. Pac-Fab Challenger pump 300# sand filter
    Intex 8110 SWG, Hayward CL220 offline feeder
    Hayward 250K Btu gas heater
    Aquabots

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    Looks like it should have the first time they dropped the liner!

    GLAD!! you finally have the job you paid for done correctly!!!!

    Now hop in there and take a swim
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: IG Liner replacement - Botched concrete repair?

    So glad things turned out well in the end.
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