Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

I made no implication to you or your intelligence level but rather to mine in relation to the person that had the failure in his pebble pool. I'm sorry if it came across otherwise as that was never my intention.

I'm glad that you have had good experiences with your plaster surface as I'm sure others have as well. There is a reason why plaster has remained pretty much unchanged for several decades...It works.
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

I think this thread has become derailed a bit. Mods, feel free to split off the conversations about AB versus traditional plaster. Perhaps start with Post #32 and move it all to The Deep End.

Here's how I look at it -

Would I do plaster surface all over again if my choice was plaster/vinyl/fiberglass? YES! Plaster is, in my opinion, the more versatile surface for creating the pool that you want.

Is plaster bullet-proof? NO. It takes just as much care, if not more, to keep it looking beautiful and it is NOT chemically inert with respect to pool water.

Can a plaster surface last in excess of 15 years? Sure, but it will not look the same as it did on Day 1 and, in that respect, "your mileage may vary" as the longevity depends a lot on the care of the pool owner as well as the skills of the plaster applicator. If either pool owner neglect OR poor workmanship is present, you can expect to be replastering a lot sooner than 15 years OR you'll have to develop a high tolerance for a crappy looking pool.

AquaBright has HUGE potential. It combines the structural integrity and design freedom of plaster with a chemically inert surface similar to vinyl pools. It is a marriage of the best of both of those pool surfaces. Barring any significant structural failures of the underlying plaster, AquaBright can be easily repaired and patched with almost seemless perfection (depending on how skilled the guy with the blowtorch is).

I would compare the state of AquaBright today, to SWG's 15 years ago. When SWG's first came out on the US market (they were available in Australia many years earlier), they were widely panned as being too expensive and unnecessary. No one thought they would last because it required a more complicated installation process and few people were skilled at using them or knowing how to diagnose them. They also failed at spectacularly high rates. Fast forward 15 years and the state of the SWG market is quite healthy with nearly a dozen different competing vendors, long warranty programs and very competitive pricing. People who bought into SWGs initially paid a lot of money for what people thought was a silly toy at best. But that initial interest and money is what has led to a much better product nowadays and I know of very, very few people who would EVER switch back to manual chlorination after running their pools with SWGs. Does that mean everyone should run out and get one? No, but the economics can be easily justified for just about any pool type if the pool owner can afford the upfront expense.

AquaBright can follow the same trajectory because, honestly speaking, there is nothing really unique about it. The idea and technology of thermal-spray coatings has been around for decades (when I went to college many, many, many, many years ago...ok, decades ago, many of my mechanical engineering buddies worked as interns in my school's Thermal Spray laboratory studying the use of recycled polymer spraying). There nothing about the process that is patentable to the point of excluding competition (you could probably patent a new flamethrower gun, but not the process itself). So all it will take is a little bit of interest on the part of the pool building community and little bit of innovation and "creative destruction" in the business world, and I have no doubt in another 10-15 years, no one will want to own a plaster pool without an AB coating on it.
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

I think this thread has become derailed a bit. Mods, feel free to split off the conversations about AB versus traditional plaster. Perhaps start with Post #32 and move it all to The Deep End.

Here's how I look at it -

Would I do plaster surface all over again if my choice was plaster/vinyl/fiberglass? YES! Plaster is, in my opinion, the more versatile surface for creating the pool that you want.

Is plaster bullet-proof? NO. It takes just as much care, if not more, to keep it looking beautiful and it is NOT chemically inert with respect to pool water.

Can a plaster surface last in excess of 15 years? Sure, but it will not look the same as it did on Day 1 and, in that respect, "your mileage may vary" as the longevity depends a lot on the care of the pool owner as well as the skills of the plaster applicator. If either pool owner neglect OR poor workmanship is present, you can expect to be replastering a lot sooner than 15 years OR you'll have to develop a high tolerance for a crappy looking pool.

AquaBright has HUGE potential. It combines the structural integrity and design freedom of plaster with a chemically inert surface similar to vinyl pools. It is a marriage of the best of both of those pool surfaces. Barring any significant structural failures of the underlying plaster, AquaBright can be easily repaired and patched with almost seemless perfection (depending on how skilled the guy with the blowtorch is).

I would compare the state of AquaBright today, to SWG's 15 years ago. When SWG's first came out on the US market (they were available in Australia many years earlier), they were widely panned as being too expensive and unnecessary. No one thought they would last because it required a more complicated installation process and few people were skilled at using them or knowing how to diagnose them. They also failed at spectacularly high rates. Fast forward 15 years and the state of the SWG market is quite healthy with nearly a dozen different competing vendors, long warranty programs and very competitive pricing. People who bought into SWGs initially paid a lot of money for what people thought was a silly toy at best. But that initial interest and money is what has led to a much better product nowadays and I know of very, very few people who would EVER switch back to manual chlorination after running their pools with SWGs. Does that mean everyone should run out and get one? No, but the economics can be easily justified for just about any pool type if the pool owner can afford the upfront expense.

AquaBright can follow the same trajectory because, honestly speaking, there is nothing really unique about it. The idea and technology of thermal-spray coatings has been around for decades (when I went to college many, many, many, many years ago...ok, decades ago, many of my mechanical engineering buddies worked as interns in my school's Thermal Spray laboratory studying the use of recycled polymer spraying). There nothing about the process that is patentable to the point of excluding competition (you could probably patent a new flamethrower gun, but not the process itself). So all it will take is a little bit of interest on the part of the pool building community and little bit of innovation and "creative destruction" in the business world, and I have no doubt in another 10-15 years, no one will want to own a plaster pool without an AB coating on it.


Very interesting conversation. Im learning a lot. Thank You. Im not going to get AB this go around, but who knows what happens in the next 10-15 years. Curiously, how long have you had your AB finish on your pool?


Interesting analogy between SWG and AB. To support your analogy - From what I have read, pool stores and PB that also own pool stores....played a large part in the early slow adoption of SWG because if a SWG actually worked (and it clearly did), their profits would be cut from reduced chemical sales. I imagine a similar situation could happen now between PB that do and do not have access to AB. Non AB PB could slow the adoption through counter-sales? Pure speculation on my part - but may be true?

That being said - AB is still new to the pool world and Im a firm believer in the "time will tell" method for proof. Funny enough, Im an "early adopter" when it comes to IT/IS, software and technology but for some reason when it comes to this sort of thing, Im a natural skeptic. Being a natural skeptic does have its advantages. Especially as an open minded skeptic. It means that I read, research and look at every possible angle. I hope to have 15-20 years before the pebble finish that Im having installed this summer needs to be replaced, but in the event that I chose poorly, Im sure new information will be out. There hundreds of examples in industry of "the next best thing" that had promise to take over a market. Many...most.....dont survive the test of time. For those that do - we all win. So - lets see what happens!
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

I am only theoretically interested in Aquabright as my own pool is vinyl, but have a question.
Brian, while my understanding is that its polymer, would you say its similar in behavior to two-part epoxy, whereby the heat reaction is what sets it? What are the components of the polymer?

And, depending on components, isn't there some degree on extrapolation as to longevity just based on the materials science?

For example, years ago I was involved in public sculptural nstallations. For one commission we experimented with vacuum-formed epoxy-impregnated linen paper that we were able to, using UV and flame retardant additive, cause to pass a flame test required. In essence, we could not make that "paper" burn ;)

I guess my feeling is that notwithstanding installation conditions or possible application error, it ought to be possible to have at least a mild sense of the capability/longevity of the material based on lab work....
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

Swampy, the epoxy used is really nothing more than a binder to ensure a secure bond between the substrate and the AB material. As we all know, epoxies are not UV stable an that is why the expoxy paints just do not last the way that they should. Interestingly enough, the few times I've encountered over spray on to concrete have been an absolute nightmare to remove even though there was no epoxy underneath.

The first coat of epoxy is cut in half with acetone. When it is applied it is pressed into the plaster's pores and that somewhat seals the surface. Once that sets up enough to be walked on, a second coat of full strength epoxy is applied. Once this coat becomes very tacky, the AB material is then applied. The heat definitely helps to cure the epoxy because the surface can be walked on within just a few seconds of being applied.

The polymer ingredients are a proprietary secret that is locked away with the Busch's Baked Beans recipe. From what I do know, its a combination of polyethylene powder and methyl acrylic acid but has some other additives added for UV stabilization and proper melting properties. There really is some special unicorn ingredients in it because I have run just about any material I can get through the gun to see what happens. Most just burn or catch on fire or don't melt enough and bounce off the surface.

Since the epoxy is completely shielded from the sun, I see no way for it to deteriorate. I have tried to remove the AB from the plaster and I don't really think it is possible without destroying the plaster or your mental psyche....

As for the AB material, I'm sure it will eventually succumb to the wrath of the UV rays and fade (is there anything that doesn't?) but it is unknown how long that will take. EcoFinish did an accelerated study on the material in relation to UV light with positive results. I have no idea how long it will last but with my oldest installation at almost a year old, there is absolutely no difference in color between the sample and the surface in the pool. This pool had the plaster completely fade to white (from dark gray) in less than a year and a half...gray is supposed to be one of the more robust colors as well :scratch:

I'm surprised EcoFinish doesn't have a presence on this forum.
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

Thanks for the info...intriguing. Of course, now I want to know what's in the special sauce, in case I'm ever involved in public art again ;)

For fee, Brian can AquaBright your new observatory dome ;)


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Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

Thanks for the info...intriguing. Of course, now I want to know what's in the special sauce, in case I'm ever involved in public art again ;)

It's definitely more complex than most make it out to be. Amazing that it melts relatively easily but takes a significant amount of heat to burn and catch on fire...PVC on the other hand....
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

The startup is awesome:

Fire up the pumps
Dump the salt in
Add CYA to 80ppm
Add 2 gallons of chlorine
Adjust the pH
Make sure the heater runs
High five the owner

A plaster or pebble startup takes 2-3 visits per week for a month, tons of questions and endless inquiries on when they can use the spa.
 

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Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

We have been doing ecoFinish for three years now. Aquabright and Polyfibro are the color lineups that are available. The first pools we did were inside so UV isn't an issue. The next pools were done outdoors. So far we are seeing some fade above the water line. No different than what we expect to see with vinyl above the waterline.

I had one failure with ecoFinish in a small shotcrete hot tub. We have no idea why, thinking heat was just too much in a small environment. To remove the ecoFinish was terrible. It took two guys with 4" and 9" angle grinders two days to remove what stuck reasonably well. What didn't stick you could peel off with a paint scraper. One strip was 6' long 4" wide. On reapplication we did very small areas while shutting down the "gun" for periods in between to reduce the amount of heat retained. It took a year for the first go round to show a problem, so time will tell if we got it fixed
 
Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

Do you AquaBright applicators ever network? Seems like you all should have your own "Trouble Free AquaBright" website...


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Re: Lifespan of plaster, pebble and polymer pool finishes

Actual ecoFinish delaminated. We are thinking that in the enclosed space the heat was causing the epoxy to basically boil and one didn't adhere to the other
 
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