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Thread: SWG and pool balancing questions.

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    SWG and pool balancing questions.

    1.

    Untitled by Jim, on Flickr

    Untitled by Jim, on Flickr

    under the "recommended levels" article you guys say for a plaster SWG pool you should keep ur FC level at 3-5 but the "water balance for SWG" article states 4-6 for FC.

    which is right I'm thinking 3-5 cause puts u in that 70 CYA level which is better than climbing into the 80 range?

    2.

    When maintaining certain levels. lets talk FC. to increase my FC level I either run the SWG longer or I add liquid bleach I'm reading. So if I want to lower that FC level I would be just backing down on the SWG run time?

    This leads to my next question. There is a recommended run level. So how to I know what level to start at to keep me in that 3-5 range (if correct)? Trial and error?

    3. When I want to lower PH i dump Muriatic acid. How do I know how much? again trial and error? but then I don't want o lower it too much cause it seems like trying to raise it is harder.

    4. that brings me to the next question. If i need to raise the PH I'll go Borax. This will raise my TA so I assume I will just be adding baking soda? Of again is it trial and error.

    I guess my biggest thing I can't grasp is will a lot of this be me experimenting for future changes that need to be made? I'm such a black and white person. I'm thinking adding chemicals isn't a black and white thing?

    Thanks everyone!

    I got all these articles printed out that you recommend printing and bookmarking. Most makes good sense but the above doesn't. I have never owned a pool so this is totally greek to me! I feel I have learned a ton in the past few months. Chemicals is next in my own pool school.

    jim
    35x23/20 free form gunite 3.5-6 feet water. approx. 20,000 gallons. no spa or water features. 2 skim, 2 ret, floor ret, floor return. 2 inch solid. suction cleaning line. 1.5 inch solid. super blue diamond brite. NPT Gemstone Blue 2x2 with custom waterjet cut Disney Mickey markers. all pentair equipment. master temp 300,000 BTU. de 60. inteliflo 3.0 VS. swg ic40. 3 globrite LED lights. easy touch 4 with screen logic. tf-100/ salt kit

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    I'm new to the SLAM and as a new user, I was a little confused with the same thing.
    I was told even though I have a SWG, use the non-SWG targets. Go figure - that definitely wasnt anywhere in the SLAM docs

    Just as an unbiased user, and again, I'm new, the older members tell you to just follow the SLAM, but in reality, those docs do very little to tell you *when* to add chemicals.
    I would have really liked to have seen a SLAM process - starting at 6a, do this, 12p do this, 6p do this, etc.

    Just a suggestion - dont flame me, folks - totally my opinion only...
    18x36 25k Gal Inground Vinyl Pool
    300lb Sand Filter / 1.5hp Single Speed Pump / Intellichlor IC40 SWG / Polaris 280 w/booster pump

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    So 3-7 for fc. And cya seems high cause it goes into 90 plus which I thought wasn't good?

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    Mod Squad YippeeSkippy's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmasonjr View Post
    I'm new to the SLAM and as a new user, I was a little confused with the same thing.
    I was told even though I have a SWG, use the non-SWG targets. Go figure - that definitely wasnt anywhere in the SLAM docs

    Which may have been in winter when your SWG isn't able to produce chlorine? Just a possible reason you were told that.


    Just as an unbiased user, and again, I'm new, the older members tell you to just follow the SLAM, but in reality, those docs do very little to tell you *when* to add chemicals.
    I would have really liked to have seen a SLAM process - starting at 6a, do this, 12p do this, 6p do this, etc.

    At first, hourly is ideal. The FC will be used up almost immediately at first. As the algae is killed the time between doses is going to expand and you'll see that when you go to re-test and you find you still have chlorine. Your additional doses may never be as much as the first dose either. IF the chlorine is being used up you want to keep it topped off often so that the SLAM goes as fast as possible. You don't want to give the algae time to reproduce and multiply.

    Just a suggestion - dont flame me, folks - totally my opinion only...
    No problem Good points to remind us to explain things better to avoid confusion.

    Yip


    - - - Updated - - -

    So 3-7 for fc. And cya seems high cause it goes into 90 plus which I thought wasn't good?

    Jimim, you're in NE PA.. you don't need as much CYA as someone in AZ or TX. Even folks who dont use SWG in those hot sunny climes learn they have to use a bit more CYA to protect their chlorine.

    If your FC goal is to be 4ppm, with a basement safe level of 2ppm.... yet you know you're going to lose about 2ppm daily to the sun, you can dose to 6ppm. Then when you lose that 2ppm you're still at 4ppm and never risk going down below 2ppm. Does that make sense?

    Yip
    Maddie :) 12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
    Skippy's Pool Cooler --> Skippy's New Fountain Our Build --> Our Pool Solved Our Sloping Yard

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Jim,

    Let's look at FC for a SWCG pool first...

    With a CYA of 70 your minimum FC is 3 with a target of 5
    With a CYA of 80 your minimum FC is 4 with a target of 6

    You really never, ever, want your FC to get below the minimum. So, what is the best way to make that happen? Keep your FC at or slightly above your target. I usually keep mine at about 7 ppm

    You adjust the FC in a SWCG pool two ways... One is the percentage of output control on the SWCG. Usually from 0 to 100%. AND the pump run time.. You can adjust one or the other or both. One hour of pump run time with the SWCG set at 100% will generate the same amount of chlorine that a setting of 10% SWCG output and running the pump for 10 hours will produce.

    The amount of chlorine that your pool uses each day will change as the temperature and sunshine increase. So you will have to make small adjustments to your chlorine generation once a month or so. But each pool is a little different, so yes, it is something that you will have to determine for yourself.

    It is not hard to do.. Simply set your SWCG to say 40% and set your pump to run for 8 hours. Test your FC before starting the test and then again after the test. If your FC goes up after the test, then you are generating more chlorine than you need. If the FC goes down then you are not generating enough chlorine.

    As far as Muriatic Acid and pH...

    Have you used the "Pool Math" link at the top of this page? You simply add your pool size and then your current pH and what you want your new pH to be.. Pool Math will tell you the answer.
    Most people with SWCG pools have little problem with the pH being low, it is almost always going up that is the issue. As long at the pH is between 7.2 and 7.8 you are ok, but generally most SWCG pool tend to stay in the 7.8 range. In my case my pool stays at 7.8 for several weeks at a time.

    Just like the world is not a black and white place, neither are pools, there are a lot of gray areas.. maybe we can say blue areas. What we provide are "guidelines" to make your pool as blue and clear as possible..

    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    My SWG advice was recent: New to SLAM - First test is here

    Quote Originally Posted by YippeeSkippy View Post
    No problem Good points to remind us to explain things better to avoid confusion.

    Yip


    - - - Updated - - -

    So 3-7 for fc. And cya seems high cause it goes into 90 plus which I thought wasn't good?

    Jimim, you're in NE PA.. you don't need as much CYA as someone in AZ or TX. Even folks who dont use SWG in those hot sunny climes learn they have to use a bit more CYA to protect their chlorine.

    If your FC goal is to be 4ppm, with a basement safe level of 2ppm.... yet you know you're going to lose about 2ppm daily to the sun, you can dose to 6ppm. Then when you lose that 2ppm you're still at 4ppm and never risk going down below 2ppm. Does that make sense?

    Yip
    18x36 25k Gal Inground Vinyl Pool
    300lb Sand Filter / 1.5hp Single Speed Pump / Intellichlor IC40 SWG / Polaris 280 w/booster pump

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmasonjr View Post
    I'm new to the SLAM and as a new user, I was a little confused with the same thing.
    I was told even though I have a SWG, use the non-SWG targets. Go figure - that definitely wasnt anywhere in the SLAM docs

    Just as an unbiased user, and again, I'm new, the older members tell you to just follow the SLAM, but in reality, those docs do very little to tell you *when* to add chemicals.
    I would have really liked to have seen a SLAM process - starting at 6a, do this, 12p do this, 6p do this, etc.

    Just a suggestion - dont flame me, folks - totally my opinion only...
    Wait a minute! You say you are new, but that join date over there <----- says Jan 2014?

    No flaming allowed here. Thanks for the feedback, we appreciate it.
    TFP Moderator
    If TFP helped you or saved you money - Become a TFP Supporter! <--Click here
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimrahbe View Post
    Jim,

    Let's look at FC for a SWCG pool first...

    With a CYA of 70 your minimum FC is 3 with a target of 5
    With a CYA of 80 your minimum FC is 4 with a target of 6

    You really never, ever, want your FC to get below the minimum. So, what is the best way to make that happen? Keep your FC at or slightly above your target. I usually keep mine at about 7 ppm

    You adjust the FC in a SWCG pool two ways... One is the percentage of output control on the SWCG. Usually from 0 to 100%. AND the pump run time.. You can adjust one or the other or both. One hour of pump run time with the SWCG set at 100% will generate the same amount of chlorine that a setting of 10% SWCG output and running the pump for 10 hours will produce.

    The amount of chlorine that your pool uses each day will change as the temperature and sunshine increase. So you will have to make small adjustments to your chlorine generation once a month or so. But each pool is a little different, so yes, it is something that you will have to determine for yourself.

    It is not hard to do.. Simply set your SWCG to say 40% and set your pump to run for 8 hours. Test your FC before starting the test and then again after the test. If your FC goes up after the test, then you are generating more chlorine than you need. If the FC goes down then you are not generating enough chlorine.

    As far as Muriatic Acid and pH...

    Have you used the "Pool Math" link at the top of this page? You simply add your pool size and then your current pH and what you want your new pH to be.. Pool Math will tell you the answer.
    Most people with SWCG pools have little problem with the pH being low, it is almost always going up that is the issue. As long at the pH is between 7.2 and 7.8 you are ok, but generally most SWCG pool tend to stay in the 7.8 range. In my case my pool stays at 7.8 for several weeks at a time.

    Just like the world is not a black and white place, neither are pools, there are a lot of gray areas.. maybe we can say blue areas. What we provide are "guidelines" to make your pool as blue and clear as possible..

    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
    ok this all makes good sense.

    so some follow up.

    1. with plaster should i be shooting for a 70 or 80 CYA level? i'm thinking below 80 is better right? so then i would be shooting for a bit above 5 cause my target is 3-5?

    2. if i have to increase my output percentage of my SWG say cause i need more FC output I assume I will also have to increase my pump run time then correct? even though i have automation the pump won't adjust itself for the increase on the salt side right?

    3. I have to look at pool math today. i didn't yet. my bad. soooooo sooooo much stuff!

    jim
    35x23/20 free form gunite 3.5-6 feet water. approx. 20,000 gallons. no spa or water features. 2 skim, 2 ret, floor ret, floor return. 2 inch solid. suction cleaning line. 1.5 inch solid. super blue diamond brite. NPT Gemstone Blue 2x2 with custom waterjet cut Disney Mickey markers. all pentair equipment. master temp 300,000 BTU. de 60. inteliflo 3.0 VS. swg ic40. 3 globrite LED lights. easy touch 4 with screen logic. tf-100/ salt kit

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Jim,

    Keep in mind, with a CYA of 70, your "target" is not 3 to 5.. Your target is 5 or slightly above.. With a CYA of 80, your "target" is not 4 to 6.. Your target is 6 or slightly more.
    Having a little too much FC is never a problem.

    You can adjust your SWCG output, or your pump run time, or both, it is up to you....

    Here are a couple of examples...

    I run my pump at 1,200 RPM, 24/7, with the SWCG set to about 25% this time a year. This is just a personal preference with me, it is not a requirement. I like the idea that the SWCG is making a little chlorine all the time rather than large amounts of chlorine a few times a day. For me, I believe that it helps me maintain my FC level.

    Using ScreenLogic, I have my Easytouch programmed to ramp the pump's speed up to 2,000 RPM, for an hour, about 4 times a day, this helps the skimmers keep the water surface clean. Some say doing this is a waste of electricity, and it is, but since running an Intelliflo 24/7 costs less than $20 bucks a month, it is worth it to me.

    You could run your pump for 8 hours a day, but if you do you will need to increase the SWCG's output to maybe 60%...

    Since you have ScreenLogic, you can set the programing and parameters to exactly what you want on your PC with just a few icon clicks.


    Yes... Pool Math, and a good test kit, are the key to keeping your pool clean and clear.

    Thanks,

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    Wait a minute! You say you are new, but that join date over there <----- says Jan 2014?

    No flaming allowed here. Thanks for the feedback, we appreciate it.
    Yeah, I did join a long time ago, but never SLAMed until now. If you look at my post history, I dont think I've ever posted until this year, certainly not related to SLAM...
    18x36 25k Gal Inground Vinyl Pool
    300lb Sand Filter / 1.5hp Single Speed Pump / Intellichlor IC40 SWG / Polaris 280 w/booster pump

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    rmason, no flame here, no worries.

    We cant put a time stamp on a SLAM actions. Each one has it's own personality, and will need different attention at very different time intervals. Perhaps we can add something as to when, but specific times would be wrong for a number of reasons on different SLAMS. Mostly, that the next move at noon for you would be too late, or soon for Bob or Bill next door.
    TFP Moderator
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimrahbe View Post
    Jim,

    Keep in mind, with a CYA of 70, your "target" is not 3 to 5.. Your target is 5 or slightly above.. With a CYA of 80, your "target" is not 4 to 6.. Your target is 6 or slightly more.
    Having a little too much FC is never a problem.

    You can adjust your SWCG output, or your pump run time, or both, it is up to you....

    Here are a couple of examples...

    I run my pump at 1,200 RPM, 24/7, with the SWCG set to about 25% this time a year. This is just a personal preference with me, it is not a requirement. I like the idea that the SWCG is making a little chlorine all the time rather than large amounts of chlorine a few times a day. For me, I believe that it helps me maintain my FC level.

    Using ScreenLogic, I have my Easytouch programmed to ramp the pump's speed up to 2,000 RPM, for an hour, about 4 times a day, this helps the skimmers keep the water surface clean. Some say doing this is a waste of electricity, and it is, but since running an Intelliflo 24/7 costs less than $20 bucks a month, it is worth it to me.

    You could run your pump for 8 hours a day, but if you do you will need to increase the SWCG's output to maybe 60%...

    Since you have ScreenLogic, you can set the programing and parameters to exactly what you want on your PC with just a few icon clicks.


    Yes... Pool Math, and a good test kit, are the key to keeping your pool clean and clear.

    Thanks,

    Jim R.
    awesome info.

    1. yes i meant that i would be above 5 a bit of was at 70 cya. sorry.

    2. ok so i understand this correctly. so i set my swg at 25%. it will run the whole time while the pump is running. it never shuts off when it hits a certain level correct? so if i run the pump at a slow speed like you and can then set it low to continually put out FC. once the pump stops the SWG stops, but if the pump keeps running so does the SWG?

    i didn't realize that. i was thinking i was setting it to output a certain percent on the SWG and it runs for a designated time to reach a certain output or level. but it doesn't.

    if i am correct with all this then how you run ur system makes good sense to me! grant it i don't know much but having a very slow output that is cont would be better than high pulsed outputs i would think.

    jim
    35x23/20 free form gunite 3.5-6 feet water. approx. 20,000 gallons. no spa or water features. 2 skim, 2 ret, floor ret, floor return. 2 inch solid. suction cleaning line. 1.5 inch solid. super blue diamond brite. NPT Gemstone Blue 2x2 with custom waterjet cut Disney Mickey markers. all pentair equipment. master temp 300,000 BTU. de 60. inteliflo 3.0 VS. swg ic40. 3 globrite LED lights. easy touch 4 with screen logic. tf-100/ salt kit

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimim View Post
    awesome info.

    1. yes i meant that i would be above 5 a bit of was at 70 cya. sorry.

    2. ok so i understand this correctly. so i set my swg at 25%. it will run the whole time while the pump is running. it never shuts off when it hits a certain level correct? so if i run the pump at a slow speed like you and can then set it low to continually put out FC. once the pump stops the SWG stops, but if the pump keeps running so does the SWG?

    i didn't realize that. i was thinking i was setting it to output a certain percent on the SWG and it runs for a designated time to reach a certain output or level. but it doesn't.

    if i am correct with all this then how you run ur system makes good sense to me! grant it i don't know much but having a very slow output that is cont would be better than high pulsed outputs i would think.

    jim
    The percentage setting is the percent of time the SWG is producing chlorine while the pump is on. Jimrahbe was referring to the fact that he runs his 24/7........I believe.
    18*36*23 true "L" vinyl IG 29,000 gallons. SWG. TF-100 test kit.
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Ok so if set to 50 percent and u run ur pump 24/7 then it produces salt 12 hrs of the day?

    Does the speed u run the pump make a diff then?

    So if u run ur pump less hrs of the day u have to up the percent on the swg so it will output salt out for a greater period of time to keep that fc level up.

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Jim,

    What you said is basically correct...

    Speed makes no difference as long as it is enough to turn on the SWCG's flow switch. For my pool this is 1,100 RPM, so I run my pump a little faster at 1,200 RPM. Your pool may be a little less or a little more...

    If you set your SWCG for 10% and run your pump for one hour, then the SWCG would make chlorine for about 6 minutes.
    If you set your SWCG for 50% and run your pump for one hour, then the SWCG would make chlorine for about 30 minutes.
    If you set your SWCG for 100% and run your pump for one hour, then the SWCG would make chlorine for about 60 minutes.

    This may not be exactly correct, but in general this is how they work...

    And keep in mind the SWCG does not make salt or output salt.. it uses the saltwater and electricity to make chlorine.. The % adjust the amount of chlorine your SWCG makes.

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Thanks Jim. Right I know I was outputting fc not salt.

    I just never realized the percent was the time it output based on run time of the pump.

    I hope I can manage all this. I guess I won't really know till I get going but practicing in a new plastered pool I can ruin has me a bit worried.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    Jim,

    Fear not... you are not going to ruin anything..

    Pool problems usually happen over months, or years, of having chemical issues. A few days of ups and downs is not going to cause you any issues.

    Keep us up to date on your readings and there are a ton of people here that can point you in the right direction..

    Thanks and try to stay....

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Caldera Spa.

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    ThAnks jim.

    Well pretty much staring at the yard waiting for snow to melt. Lol

    Nights are all above freezing for next month long range. So as long as things dry up we r good to go.

    I just hope it doesn't start a rain season now!

    This week I have to go over the pool mth stuff. That is the last part in the equation of chemicals. At least till we get going.

    It's just going to be a learn as you go thing.

    I appreciate all the help!

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    I wanted to bump this back up cause I just put the beta of pool math on my phone. The settings by default for plaster salt is:
    Fc 3-4
    Ch350-450

    Should I be changing these?

    I thought I wanted my ch to be 350-400?

    Fc I'm still confused on from reading. 3-4 or 4-6?

    Thanks a lot everyone.

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: SWG and pool balancing questions.

    The FC recommendation will depend on what your CYA level is. We are still fine turning the recommendations in the app, when in doubt go with the FC/CYA Chart.

    350-450 is correct, Pool School - Recommended Levels
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