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Thread: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

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    Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    I am finishing up my equipment pad renovation and have a question about my panel boxes. I have three panels mounted to my house directly above my pool equipment pad. The sub panel is connected to my main panel (6 feet apart) with (4) #6 THWN and the neutral bar is isolated in the sub panel. My automation is connected to my sub panel (4 inches apart with 2" PVC). The hots go from the breakers in the sub panel to the relays in the automation panel. Then they pass back thru the sub panel on to the item they are controlling. I said all this to give you the full picture so you can hopefully answer these questions...

    Does the sub panel need to be connected to the pool bonding grid?
    Does the automation panel need to be connected to the pool bonding grid?
    Does the automation panel need to be connected to the sub panel ground bar?
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    Does the sub panel need to be connected to the pool bonding grid? No
    Does the automation panel need to be connected to the pool bonding grid? Yes
    Does the automation panel need to be connected to the sub panel ground bar? Yes

    There should be ground lugs and bond lugs on the automation panel. More here, Pool School - Bonding vs Grounding
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    Thanks for the link. I am still unsure of the automation panel bonding. I can understand the automation panel needing to be grounded to the sub panel, just like the sub panel is grounded to the main panel. If I connect the pool bonding wire to the automation panel, then essentially I am connecting the ground in the sub panel and the main panel to the bonding grid.... That doesn't seem right, but I am not an expert either.
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    There should be a bond lugs and a ground lugs in the automation panel. It is ok for the bonding to be attached to the grounding on various pieces of equipment, heaters often are. As long as all designated ground lugs are connected to ground and all designated bond lugs are connected to the bond grid then you are OK. Here is what my Solartouch manual says about it.

    Grounding and Bonding to the SolarTouch® Controller
    Connect a ground wire from the primary electrical panel to the SolarTouch Controller
    ground bus bar. Also ground each piece of high voltage (120 VAC or 240 VAC) equipment
    that is connected to the Controller relays. The SolarTouch controller must also be
    connected to the pool bonding system using an 8 AWG (minimum) wire. An earth terminal
    for bonding is provided on the grounding bus bar inside the SolarTouch controller.
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    Do you happen to have a picture of the inside of you automation panel? Do you have hots and grounds entering the panel? Is this an all in one panel, meaning its your automation and sub panel?
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    I don't have pics but there are diagrams in the manual here
    http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/solartouchOM.pdf
    the link is on the right on this page if above doesn't work
    http://www.pentairpool.com/products/...system-447.htm

    I do have hots and grounds entering the Solartouch. It is not an all in one panel. It is for solar automation only. I have breaker subpanel for the pool, wired to my main breaker panel in the house, sitting next to it.
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    hmm. My setup is a little different... My relays are connected directly from the breaker. I do not have a ground or neutral bar in the sub panel. It is technically operating like an on / off switch for the relays (hot wires only). If the case is grounded to the sub panel what would the bonding wire be needed for? The sub panel is not bonded..... Not saying your wrong, just want to fully understand.
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    You are reaching the outer limits of my knowledge. The electric breaker subpanel does not need to be bonded. Most pool automation panels that I've seen have provisions for grounding and bonding. Yes, these sometimes cross paths and that is fine. What is important is that everything that should be bonded is attached to the bonding grid. If your automation panel doesn't have any info about bonding or a bonding lug then I think it is fine for it not to be bonded.
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    I know the feeling about being at your outer limits.. haha. I am good with all the other bonding and grounding but this is out of my realm. It has a grounding post inside the box but that is all. I guess it would be considered an extension of the sub panel the way its all wired up. I feel comfortable not having a bonding wire since the sub panel does not require one. I will install a #8 ground wire from the automation panel to the sub panel. I cannot see it needing more than that. Just needed someone to talk it thru with me. Thanks!
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    You're welcome and I agree.
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    Another quick question about bonding... I know code requires #8 solid copper but does it state that it has to be insulated or bare? I have seen both used but wasnt sure if code dictated what to use. Also, I have about 6 inches of wire coming out of the ground at my pad. Is it best to connect one wire and run it thru one motor bonding lug and then to the next motor or install two separate wires, one for each pump. I will connect to the original bonding lug using a split bolt connector.
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    I believe it is specified as bare. I don't know that the connection matters, but I probably run and series the pumps. I did find this FWIW:

    http://www.harger.com/library/LineCa...-Line-Card.pdf
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    I had seen that and something from Mikeholt that seem to both state "shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors,insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG ". Guess thats my answer.
    18x36 inground / 28k gal / Vinyl liner (replaced in 2018) / Hayward Pro Series sand filter / Hayward 1hp pool pump / Hayward 3/4hp booster pump / Stenner pump (85MHP17) w/55 gallon storage tank / Pentair heat pump HP1200 (To be installed) / TF100 Test kit

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    Re: Sub-panel, Automation panel bonding/grounding question

    Bonding wire should be bare and ground wire should be insulated green. It is fine to run it through and on to the next pump. Either is fine.
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