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Thread: Recommendations for new pump

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    Recommendations for new pump

    Hi all,

    I'm considering two options for a replacement pump this year.
    I've currently got a 1HP Hayward Superpump, currently with no timer setup, just a simple on/off switch.

    Option 1 - Pentair WhisperFlo 1/2 HP single speed
    Option 2 - Hayward Superpump II - 2 speed (1.5HP / 0.25HP)

    General questions.
    I'm wondering if the WhisperFlow will have enough flow to keep the heater going.
    For the water slide - with the SuperPump, I'm OK if the slide only works on the high speed setting, however It would need to also work with the WhisperFlow.
    I'm wondering if the 2 speed may be more complicated then necessary for my setup.

    Appreciate your thoughts and feedback - Thanks!

    ---

    Some answers to the common questions I've seen asked here.

    What is the pump elevation relative to the water level?
    Pump is about 3 feet below water level
    Do you have any water features, spa jets, floor cleaners, suction/pressure cleaner?
    I have a slide that has a water output at the top. About 7 feet above the water level. It is controlled with a valve at the slide.
    What is the diameter of your suction and return lines and how many do you have going from pool to pump?
    No main drain, One skimmer, Two return jets - All are 1.5"
    What is the distance of your plumbing runs pool to pump?
    Approximately 50 feet from the skimmer and one return on the far side, the other return is on the close side.
    What is your current pump voltage setup?
    240V
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    There is a third option. Just replace your current motor with a two speed motor.

    A.O. Smith 1 H.P Round Flange Dual Speed Full Rate Motor W/Out Switch (STS1102, STS1102RV1) - INYOPools.com

    But I would not go with the Hayward Super II. The Pentair SuperFlo two speed is a good pump and has plenty of power.

    Also, just so you know, the Whisperflo 1/2 HP uses more energy than your current pump does on high speed (so does the 1 HP SuperFlo). Thats why you cant go by label HP.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  3. Back To Top    #3

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Thanks for the reply Mark.

    Both of these options are available via a local contact (authorized dealer) for a fantastic price versus just buying a new motor. I don't believe he has the SuperFlo models available though.
    Why are you not a fan of the Hayward Super II (two speed)? Wouldn't this be the ideal option for reducing power use (when running on low 1/4 HP speed)
    Why do you recommend the SuperFlo over the WhisperFlo?

    I'm interested in learning more about this too - specifically that the WhisperFlo 1/2 HP single speed will use more power than my current SuperPump 1hp single speed, How are those calculations made?

    Thanks a lot
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    The Super II uses a lot more energy than your current pump. Here are some typical numbers:

    Super II SP3010X152AZ: 1800 Watts on high speed, 382 watts on low speed

    If you were to just change out the motor for a two speed on your current pump OR get a new 1 HP 2 speed SuperPump:

    SuperPump SP2607X102S: 1276 watts on high speed, 309 watts on low speed

    SuperPump is a more efficient solution.



    Why do you recommend the SuperFlo over the WhisperFlo?
    Energy use. Much like the Super II, the Whisperflo is a bigger (i.e. uses more energy) and usually much more expensive pump for the given label HP. Unless you have a spa, the WhisperFlo and SuperII are a waste of energy. If they came in a smaller HP in a two speed, then they might be a better choice. Even on low speed, they can't match the performance of the SuperFlo or SuperPump.

    Ask if they have a two speed SuperPump or MaxFlo. MaxFlo is a very efficient pump.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Mark, Really appreciate the info. I've dug into some of the details with your spreadsheet too.
    It's amazing how the stated HP does not line up to power use at all. And even more amazing how the general knowledge (via Googling) incorrectly states that the WhipserFlo 1/2 HP will use less power than the Superpump 1HP. There seems to be a general misunderstanding here, though not surprising - it seems fairly complicated to figure out. Without that spreadsheet that is

    For me, it comes down to a choice between two options.
    Option 1 - Super II - $350 my cost
    Option 2 - Superpump 2 speed - $560 my cost

    I expect to use the pump the majority of the time on low speed, so the lower up front cost of the Super II makes that attractive, however when factor in my power cost (17c/kWh) the spreadsheet indicates that I come out ahead by betting the 2 speed SuperPump around the 24 month mark (about 4 years for me of pool run time).

    Thanks again.
    /m
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Just a couple of clarifications.

    You should have found that the SuperPump ends up having a lower lifetime cost over time. Is that not what you found?

    Also, you mentioned 4 years for 24 months of run time but that is 6 months per year. Do you get that much run time in Ontario? Seems very long for the area.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Correct - Superpump 1hp 2 speed gives the lower lifetime cost.
    Fair point - We don't get 6 months here, I do tend to open early and close late - probably 5 months, though with the cold temperatures early in the spring and late in the summer, I can probably run the pump even less.
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Hi,

    As a follow up question, I visited the pool store intending to order the 2 speed SuperPump, and the staff indicated there may be a few issues I should be aware of.

    1. Skimmer operation - The store suggested that on low speed, the skimmer (i have a single one) would not operate very well, or at all.
    Any truth to this?

    2. Heater operation - The store suggested that on low speed, there may not be enough flow to operate the heater.
    This point I find quite hard to validate - using Mark's spreadsheet and curve A, since I have 1.5" pipes, the low speed of the superpump shows 27 GPM. For my heater the manual calls for a minimum of 25 GPM. This seems quite close to the limit of what would work. Could anyone comment with any real-world experience on this point?

    Pool store pushed towards the SuperPump VS, or the Tristar SP3202 - I compared these in Mark's sheet - and the Variable Speed Superpump comes out quite good on power usage, etc.

    Thanks a lot
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    1. What kind of skimmer do you have? I have two skimmers with weir doors and both run fine on low speed of a 1/2 HP pump.

    2. That may be true. But to know for sure, you may want to calibrate your current plumbing with your current pump. Use the PSI2GPM worksheet to calculate the current flow rate in your plumbing and then divide by two.

    The pool store makes more money on the VS pumps BUT they do give you more flexibility to adjust the flow rate to the lowest possible while still keeping the heater happy. So they are not a bad option. Do you have a controller? If so, you will want to make sure the VS is compatible with the controller. Do they also carry the MaxFlo VS?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Total newbie here obviously with this forum... and I'd say a newbie with pool ownership (ive only been DIY with my pool for the last 3 years) as well. So take it for what its worth... But my opinion based on your setup etc I would go with a VS to be safe... it will give you endless speeds... a 2 speed for you could be useless as the low speed simply may not be sufficient for your heater.. your skimmers and/or your slide.. I have a VS and I honestly could not imagine not having the ability to set my rpm. If you stop using your pool but still like to run the filter until the daily temp drops consistently into the 50's (to make things easier when its time to open the pool) than a VS is a great option too. B/c you can run the pump real low and draw some real low wattage. For me i'll run it almost all day long at 100 watts or so (about .50 cents a day in my area) just to keep the water moving etc. Anyhow I went with a VS b/c the family friend who has been building pools for 45 years recommended it.

    PS - I find the guys with some real experience with pool ownership etc who have never had a VS and have been very successful maintaining there pool are probably against a VS b/c of their price. But newbies like me etc love the VS If you are experienced and have been without a VS for all these years than maybe the VS isnt necessary? Just thinking out loud here.. hope some of my rambling helped best of luck
    In ground 36x16 vinyl 17k gallons -Deep end reduced to 5 ft
    Hayward Heat Pump 110,000 BTU / Hayward Max-Flo VS Variable-Speed Pool Pump
    Hayward Top-Mount 24-Inch Sand Filter / Hayward CL200 Automatic Pool Chemical Feeder
    2 main drains and 2 skimmer boxes and 3 returns 2" lines

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Mark,

    I've got a fairly standard (single) skimmer - not sure of the exact model, I don't have any of the paperwork - it does have a weir door.

    I do not have any sort of controller, just have a simple contactor switch on a timer for the pump.

    I didn't see the MaxFlo VS at the store, but I'm sure they could order it, or I could find it elsewhere.

    I've attempted to use the PSI2GPM sheet - General detail follows, and a question.

    Suction Plumbing section
    Here, I calculated from the skimmer to the pipe as it comes out in the pad area.
    A simple setup, about 60 feet of 1.5" pipe, and a single 90 as it exits the simmer (estimating, as I do not know the underground situation).

    Suction Pad/Common plumbing
    Here, I included the total length of plumbing, and fittings as exists on the pad (see picture)

    Return Pad Plumbing (pre-gauge)
    here, i included the small length of pipe between the pump exit, and the entry to the multi-port (where the gauge is)

    Question is - My understanding is that the return side including return pipe length, fittings, etc is not considered here - is this correct?

    My total plumbing curve ends up being 0.02407, which is considerably higher than the Curve-A value in the sheet.
    I think my setup is on the simple side too.

    Do these calculations seem reasonable based on your experience?

    Thanks

    Screen Shot 2017-03-26 at 19.44.27.jpgPoolPad.jpg
    Last edited by kolcun; 03-26-2017 at 06:54 PM. Reason: additional answers
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Question is - My understanding is that the return side including return pipe length, fittings, etc is not considered here - is this correct?
    Because you are using filter pressure, everything post gauge is included in the filter pressure.

    Is the filter gauge really at the same elevation as the water level (i.e. pump is below water level)?

    Do you have a 3-way valve on the suction side? It doesn't look like it in the pic but the SS has it marked as 1.

    Most of the head loss is due to the filter pressure. Are you sure the gauge is correct? Does it go to zero when the pump shuts off?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    The pump is below water level, as the pad is around the corner of the house which has a lower elevation.
    The filter gauge is almost at water level, might be 0.5 feet higher.
    The 3-way valve was a mistake - corrected this and I'm at 0.02247 now.

    Pool isn't running now, so I can't confirm exact, but as I recall from last summer, I'd typically run 14/15 PSI with empty pump and skimmer baskets, with a fresh backwash on the filter.
    Gauge does go to 0 when off.
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Then it is probably close to correct. I have seen many pools with 1.5" plumbing near and above that plumbing curve.

    Is there more than one return into the pool and what size are the eyeballs?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    I've got 2 returns. One eyeball is 1/2" and the other is 3/4"
    When the slide was added, I'm fairly sure it T's off the pipe going to the 1/2" eyeball return. There is a valve to turn the slide on/off - it's normally off.
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

  16. Back To Top    #16
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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    1/2" is pretty small. Even, 3/4" is small and likely to be causing at least some of the excess head loss/pressure.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    When we first moved into the house, I did change a smaller eyeball to the 3/4, as it was in the pool stairs area, and caused a lot of suction noise.
    I'll have to experiment some more once we get the pool going this spring with different sizes, and what effect that has on the pressure.

    From what I recall, when I changed to an even larger eyeball in the stairs area, the slide didn't get much water when it was turned on, so I may have to find a balance that works best.

    I think I'm going go with a VS pump, and my two best options are either the SuperPump VS or the MaxFlow VS.
    Seems they're the same price for me here, and given that the spreadsheet shows the MaxFlow VS will have a lower monthly cost to run, that's probably going to be the one I go with.
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Thanks for all the help on this - I got the MaxFlo VS yesterday, and hopefully will install it over the weekend.

    I'll post some pictures when it's all done.
    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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    Re: Recommendations for new pump

    Well, I did get it installed, and I'm happy with the setup! Thanks for all the advice.


    13K gal 18'x36', IG vinyl, Hayward MaxFlo SP23520VSP Pump, Hayward pro series sand filter, Hayward Aquarite SWG, Raypack R266 NG Heater, Dolphin Premium (S300i) Robot, Custom controller (in progress)

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