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Thread: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

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    Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    We're about to start our pool project and are trying to light a raised beam water feature that sits on the edge of the pool. After much research, and wonderful help from this forum, we've narrowed down our lighting options to essentially placing a light towards the back of the seating surface of a submerged bench that sits just under the waterfall. But, despite finding a light the officially describes such an installation in their manual (Jandy nicheless LED), our PB is hesitant to mount any light vertically like this (they've never done it). Can someone enlighten me as to any concerns one might have with such light installation?

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    How deep would it be? With 24" of cord would you be able to bring it up to deck level to service the bulb?

    The electrical code requires the ability to have a cord length long enough to allow the luminaire to be brought out and placed on a deck or other dry location where the relamping, maintenance, or inspection can take place without entering the pool water. (OK, I stole some of the wording from Mike Holt).
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    The seating surface sits about 18" below the waterline. Cord length, if I'm understanding your question, would be the same run as our other pool light (wall mounted).

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    How deep would it be? With 24" of cord would you be able to bring it up to deck level to service the bulb?

    The electrical code requires the ability to have a cord length long enough to allow the luminaire to be brought out and placed on a deck or other dry location where the relamping, maintenance, or inspection can take place without entering the pool water. (OK, I stole some of the wording from Mike Holt).

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiMana View Post
    The seating surface sits about 18" below the waterline. Cord length, if I'm understanding your question, would be the same run as our other pool light (wall mounted).
    No, inside the niche in the side/floor of the pool is cord wound up so that when you remove the sealed light unit from the niche you can roll out the cord and get the sealed unit up on the pool deck to service light.
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Although I am not very knowledgeable regarding pool construction, I would imagine that the same opportunity to encase the necessary length of cord would exist whether the light was installed on the bench's seating surface or within its front vertical surface. The light we would use would be the Jandy nicheless LED light which described a vertical installation option within their manual (please see page 7). I apologize if I still didn't answer your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    No, inside the niche in the side/floor of the pool is cord wound up so that when you remove the sealed light unit from the niche you can roll out the cord and get the sealed unit up on the pool deck to service light.

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiMana View Post
    Although I am not very knowledgeable regarding pool construction, I would imagine that the same opportunity to encase the necessary length of cord would exist whether the light was installed on the bench's seating surface or within its front vertical surface. The light we would use would be the Jandy nicheless LED light which described a vertical installation option within their manual (please see page 7). I apologize if I still didn't answer your question.
    No, I may not be clear. As I can't visualize what you are building, I'll ask - If there is 24" of cord in the niche is thare a place on the pool deck above the proposed installation location for someone to work on the light while they are out of the water, fully on the pool deck. When you talk about a waterfall above the bench I visualize minimal to no actual deck space. This is a requirement in the electrical code so that the light can be worked on while the person is completely out of the pool.
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    OK, now I get it. You're correct in that the raised beam water feature housing the waterfall sits directly on the edge of the pool. The raised beam structure is 8 FT in length with the center section (5' long) rising to 24" above coping. This center section is flanked on either side by 12" high sections (forming a 2-step pyramid of sorts). So with the light being 18" below waterline it would take more than 24" of cord to reach a deck-like surface. However, our pool design has successfully gone through County (in our state) with a light spec'ed in the wall just behind the bench (again, even this location would take more than 24" to reach a deck). Also, FWIW, apart from the County OK'ing it, our PB (or architect) has also never raised this concern with either the original wall-mounted light or this bench-mounted light option. But all that said, electrical code seems fairly universal so I guess its possible that the County slipped up.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    No, I may not be clear. As I can't visualize what you are building, I'll ask - If there is 24" of cord in the niche is thare a place on the pool deck above the proposed installation location for someone to work on the light while they are out of the water, fully on the pool deck. When you talk about a waterfall above the bench I visualize minimal to no actual deck space. This is a requirement in the electrical code so that the light can be worked on while the person is completely out of the pool.

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Unfortunately, those are the kind of details that get missed until an inspector sees how the installation is happening. Who knows, they may just shrug their shoulders and move on, but for safety reasons the light/cord really needs to be able to reach a spot on the pool deck. I've had to change my pool light a couple of times and I just can't imagine doing it while in the water and keeping the inside of the sealed unit dry once you open it up.

    It's in Article 680.23 of the National Electrical Code. In part it states:
    Servicing. The forming shell location and length of cord in the forming shell must allow for personnel to place the removed luminaire on the deck or other dry location for maintenance. The luminaire maintenance location must be accessible without entering or going in the pool water.
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    There is no room for excess cord with the nicheless lights. The cord is pulled tight to the junction box and servicing will require disconnecting the light and feeding the cord into the conduit in order to remove the light from the pool.

    I replied in your other thread on the same topic. I see no issue with mounting a nicheless light vertically.

    Ask your pool builder to show you in Pentair's literature where it states these lights cannot be mounted vertically...
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    I think the County missed it then, and its very possible that the inspector might call it out in field. So if one used a niched light (like an IntelliBrite 5G 'spa' light), then there would be opportunity to for additional cord? This is the light we originally asked our PB to install but they saw nothing in the manual indicating it could be installed vertically (the jandy nicheless did). Although I still don't know what the difference would be, but I'm not an expert...


    Quote Originally Posted by bdavis466 View Post
    There is no room for excess cord with the nicheless lights. The cord is pulled tight to the junction box and servicing will require disconnecting the light and feeding the cord into the conduit in order to remove the light from the pool.

    I replied in your other thread on the same topic. I see no issue with mounting a nicheless light vertically.

    Ask your pool builder to show you in Pentair's literature where it states these lights cannot be mounted vertically...

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    There is no other way to install the nicheless lights. Why would that be an issue with an inspector?
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    The Pentair ColorVision is a lighted bubbler that uses a globrite mounted vertically....

    Screenshot_20170225-150937.jpg

    From Pentair:

    "The ColorVision LED Bubbler is a combination of the ColorVision Niche and the Pentair GloBriteŽ LED lighting, which creates vivid and fountain-like water movement. Custom program and control light shows for the ColorVision LED Bubbler with ScreenLogic or IntelliTouch and ..."
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Fantastic, thanks. This should clearly show my PB that pentair does, in fact, support vertical placement of their globrite led light. If nothing else, its clearly supported using the color vision bubbler niche (cap off the water supply line), but hopefully they'll feel comfortable with simply using the globrite niche. BTW, does anyone know if an installed globrite sits truly flush with the pool's finish, or if it protrudes a bit?

    Quote Originally Posted by bdavis466 View Post
    The Pentair ColorVision is a lighted bubbler that uses a globrite mounted vertically....

    Screenshot_20170225-150937.jpg

    From Pentair:

    "The ColorVision LED Bubbler is a combination of the ColorVision Niche and the Pentair GloBriteŽ LED lighting, which creates vivid and fountain-like water movement. Custom program and control light shows for the ColorVision LED Bubbler with ScreenLogic or IntelliTouch and ..."

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    The globrites sit flush to the plaster. The lens is slightly convex and protrudes about 1/8"

    IMG_20170226_141700457.jpg

    IMG_20161018_173401534.jpg
    -Brian-

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Recently did a Globrite installed in the floor lighting a raised wall with sheer. Glass tile wrapped the raised wall and flowed to the floor. All of that was lit.
    Electrician cussed me a bunch. Yeah I should have had that huge hole dug by the excavator
    But he needed the workout.
    Yes, you are going 18 to 24" deep below the shotcrete, will be making two 90's to make it to the surface and another 90 towards somewhere, so you have to be creative where you put your jbox as it will have to be fairly close as you used 3 of your 4 90's just getting out of the pool.
    Other issue is slope of the surface it is going in. Floors usually slope so light would slope a bit, or inset a bit so it sits flush.
    On these lights there is no service loop anyway. They have to be removed to service. So just keep that in mind.
    I say go for it.

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    What if they used sweeps instead of 90s to get out and up? A little deeper hole but a much easier pull.

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    All electrical 90's in pipe are sweeps.

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    I prefer to heat bend the conduit. Seems to give a smoother radius.
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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just-a-PB View Post
    Recently did a Globrite installed in the floor lighting a raised wall with sheer. Glass tile wrapped the raised wall and flowed to the floor. All of that was lit.
    Electrician cussed me a bunch. Yeah I should have had that huge hole dug by the excavator
    But he needed the workout.
    Yes, you are going 18 to 24" deep below the shotcrete, will be making two 90's to make it to the surface and another 90 towards somewhere, so you have to be creative where you put your jbox as it will have to be fairly close as you used 3 of your 4 90's just getting out of the pool.
    Other issue is slope of the surface it is going in. Floors usually slope so light would slope a bit, or inset a bit so it sits flush.
    On these lights there is no service loop anyway. They have to be removed to service. So just keep that in mind.
    I say go for it.
    Did you have any pictures of this? Thinking of doing the same with our RBB Sheer.

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    Re: Any Issues With Installing a Light 'Vertically'?

    Quote Originally Posted by bdavis466 View Post
    I prefer to heat bend the conduit. Seems to give a smoother radius.
    I am not a 100% but I think heat bend also does not count as a 90? and ditto on the smoother radius.
    Pool: IG, 590sq ft, Tahoe Blue pebble finish, Pentair 160332 Cartridge Filter, 3 Pentair 3HP VS pumps. Pentair IC60 SWG, Pentair HD Heater, Solar to be added later. Currently being built (will finish Summer 2018). Accessories: Grotto/Cave, grotto slide, rock wall with waterfalls and fire feature, 1 LED bubblers, 4 Luminars, Aeromist foggers, 5 Color Changing 5G LED lights, Intellitouch Automation.

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