Pump problem?

[rinaldok]

That is normal. More suction head reduces flow rate which in turn reduces filter pressure. Nothing surprising there.

It's normal for a couple small leaves to cause a 2psi drop in pressure? It was never normal in my system for that to happen. Until recently I could have a half full basket and the filter pressure would be exactly the same before and after I emptied the basket.

There could be several reasons for that. Previously, if you were fighting an algae bloom, it would quickly clog a filter causing a rapid rise in filter pressure. If now, you no longer have any algae, the filter pressure would take much much longer to rise. But if the filter is indeed getting dirty and clogging the filter, then again, it has to be the filter gauge.

If I was fighting algae, I didn't know it. My water was clear all summer.

Also, the pump/filter behavior was consistent all summer. Baseline pressures, rate of increase, etc.

Now it's different.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but in my world, when things that are typically consistent suddenly change, that's cause for concern.

If your filter gauge is working properly, you should be celebrating, not worrying.

I guess I can buy a new pressure gauge even though it's been deemed to be working fine by 2 professionals, just to be absolutely sure. I suppose it's a relatively inexpensive maybe.

The motor is still loud and hot... my neighbor has the same vintage pump that I do and his is probably 1/2 or 1/3 as loud as mine.

I took a video earlier, I'll see about finding a place to upload it.

 

[JamesW]

The impeller and motor can be mismatched. What is the number on the impeller?

A suction clog is not always immediately obvious. If it's a partial clog, then it can act like you're describing.

The pressure gauge you link to will work. You will probably need to rig up a tube with fittings to get the gauge to work.

A vacuum line is commonly done by builders. However, it's not a good idea because you're sending bulk debris directly into a pvc pipe, which can eventually clog.

A better choice is to go through a skimmer or use a pre-filter or use a pressure cleaner or a robot.

 

[rinaldok]

The impeller and motor can be mismatched. What is the number on the impeller?

Oh I know it *could* be mismatched... after what I saw in the electrical work today (I'll post pics tomorrow) I don't doubt anything hokey at this point. My point was just that right or wrong, it's been this way for a long time... long before I started having these issues.

I don't know the number on the impeller and I'm frankly not too inclined to take the stupid thing apart again just to look at it. :lol:

A suction clog is not always immediately obvious. If it's a partial clog, then it can act like you're describing.

The physics seems weird to me... if something can make its way through 40' of 1.5" flex hose after passing through an opening the size of a quarter, I don't see how it's going to clog a 2" line further down the path. But... I've been wrong about such things before.

The pressure gauge you link to will work. You will probably need to rig up a tube with fittings to get the gauge to work.

Any suggestions on tunes/fittings that will work properly? Otherwise I'm just shooting in the dark...

A vacuum line is commonly done by builders. However, it's not a good idea because you're sending bulk debris directly into a pvc pipe, which can eventually clog.

A better choice is to go through a skimmer or use a pre-filter or use a pressure cleaner or a robot.

I've thought about trying a blowout back from the pump with a garden hose to see if it might dislodge anything. Any other suggestions to clear a possible partial clog?

I've also thought a couple times about putting a leaf canister on the vacuum, so it's basically an in line skimmer and will keep crud out of the plumbing and also will mean I have to take the pump basket out a lot less often. Much easier to clean the leaf canister than take the lid off the **** pump every day. :lol:

 

[JamesW]

Check volts and amps with the pump running to see what that shows.

Check the motor's surface temperature with an infrared temperature reader.

The pump plug is 1/4" npt female and the gauge is 1/4" npt male threads. The gauge would screw in if the plug wasn't so close to the ground. Get a 1/4" npt male thread x tubing barbed fitting to screw into the pump drain plug (the front drain plug). Get a 1/4" npt female thread x barbed tubing fitting to screw the gauge into. Then get a piece of heavy gauge vinyl tubing that will fit tightly over the barbed ends of the fittings to connect them together.

Clogs can happen at a 90 where debris like leaves and small sticks get stuck. It definitely can happen.

Probably the best way to clear a clog is to use a pump and a vacuum hose to suck the debris out the way it went in. You can do this with an extra pump or rig up your pump to do it.

Also, try replacing the capacitor to see if that helps. If you have a multimeter that tests for capacitance, you can test the capacitor. A local electric motor shop should have the capacitor that you need. They should also be able to test the capacitance of the capacitor to see if it's within spec.

 

[rinaldok]

Check volts and amps with the pump running to see what that shows.

That's on the agenda... I ordered a clamp meter because I only have a standard multimeter and I don't feel like taking the leads off of either the motor or the clock to measure the current. I'll check the voltage and current as soon as the clamp shows up.

Check the motor's surface temperature with an infrared temperature reader.

That's easy enough... I'll do it over the weekend after it's been running for a little while.

The pump plug is 1/4" npt female...

I'll see what I can scrounge up without going too far overboard to troubleshoot something that probably has a limited lifetime left in this world.

Probably the best way to clear a clog is to use a pump and a vacuum hose to suck the debris out the way it went in. You can do this with an extra pump or rig up your pump to do it.

Aside from pool pros, I don't know many people who'd have an "extra" pump sitting around. I'm not sure how I could rig up my pump, could you elaborate? It's plumbed in -- there are no unions so changing its configuration is not trivial. If/when I end up replacing the pump, I suppose I could perform some kind of surgery then and use this pump to try and clean out the lines.

Also, try replacing the capacitor to see if that helps. If you have a multimeter that tests for capacitance, you can test the capacitor. A local electric motor shop should have the capacitor that you need. They should also be able to test the capacitance of the capacitor to see if it's within spec.

I thought the capacitor was only for motor startup?

I need to get the video and pics that I took uploaded somewhere.. once you hear the pump you'll probably say "forget it, don't bother."

 

[JamesW]

The Whisperflo uses a run capacitor. It can affect the motor in adverse ways if it's out of spec.

I suspect that you will end up needing a new pump in any case. However, there are some things external to the pump that will still exist with a new pump.

A clogged line won't go away with a new pump.

Rigging up your existing pump to clear the lines isn't particularly easy but it's doable.

Another thing you can do to confirm a clogged suction line would be to run the pump on a temporary 2" suction line over the deck to see if the pump runs ok on a known good line.

 

[mas985]

The motor is still loud and hot... my neighbor has the same vintage pump that I do and his is probably 1/2 or 1/3 as loud as mine.

I took a video earlier, I'll see about finding a place to upload it.

That sounds like bad bearings. If the motor is heavily loaded by the bad bearings, it will run hotter than normal. If it is not over loaded, then it may continue to run. Did you ever upload the video?

 

[rinaldok]

Did you ever upload the video?

I just posted a couple... they don't sound quite the same on camera as they do in real life, of course...

Last night, pressure was around 16-16.5 psi, pump sounded a little odd (I can hear it from 100+ feet away inside the house, by the way).

Before cleaning

I cleaned out the basket (there wasn't much in there)... went up to about 18, so about 1.5-2psi increase just by cleaning a few little leaves out.

After cleaning

For more reference, I took a couple videos the other day as well. This one shows the pressure gauge with the pump running and I also turn it off and back on...

Pump Running

 

[rinaldok]

The Whisperflo uses a run capacitor. It can affect the motor in adverse ways if it's out of spec.

That's the big capacitor on top of the motor housing, right? My motor doesn't have that. Recall it's a replacement motor. It's an AO Smith motor, the only capacitor is the smaller (start capacitor?) inside the housing.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksqlxqtjgdq1sl7/Pump Motor.jpg?dl=0

I suspect that you will end up needing a new pump in any case.

Right... any thoughts on the question I posed in my original post about sizing the pump? Larger "overkill" pump dialed down vs. smaller "right sized" pump that has to run higher speeds?

I've been shopping around and I can get a Pentair Intelliflo for around 850 brand new. I could possibly save maybe a couple hundred with a smaller VS, but I'm under the impression that the smallish up-front cost savings it's worth it.

A clogged line won't go away with a new pump.

I realize that, of course. I have 2 2" suction lines, one from the skimmer and one from the vac port -- the behavior of the pump/filter pressure do not change if I adjust the valve all the way to one line or another. That would lead me to think that either both paths are equally clogged with exactly the same characteristics of flow (statistically I would say pretty unlikely) or the issue isn't a clogged line?

Rigging up your existing pump to clear the lines isn't particularly easy but it's doable.

Another thing you can do to confirm a clogged suction line would be to run the pump on a temporary 2" suction line over the deck to see if the pump runs ok on a known good line.

Anything "doable" sound pretty invasive... how can I run a temporary 2" line? Unless I'm missing something, any/all of the options to rig anything to the existing pump would require cutting out the existing plumbing in some fashion, right?

 

[mas985]

First, I don't see how this "pressure" issue could be due to a clogged line. The pressure goes back to normal after you empty the pump basket, correct? If the line was clogged, the pressure would stay lower than normal even after you empty the pump basket.

The pump itself is behaving oddly due to a few leaves in the pump basket. When you had the pump apart, did you check to make sure the impeller was secure on the motor shaft. Also, did you check to see that the diffuser had an o-ring and was in working order?

The motor is a little loud which makes me thing it is bearings. You could just replace the motor with a new motor and even a two speed motor if you want.

 

[rinaldok]

First, I don't see how this "pressure" issue could be due to a clogged line. The pressure goes back to normal after you empty the pump basket, correct? If the line was clogged, the pressure would stay lower than normal even after you empty the pump basket.

There are 2 points I'm trying to make:

1. Pressure never increases past 17-18psi anymore. To recap, "normal" behavior on this system is for clean pressure to be around 17-18 and it would take about 2 weeks to rise to 25-26, which is when I would typically backwash. This is no longer occurring, I let the filter go for 4 solid weeks as a test and the pressure never rose above 18, in fact, pressure was lower after 4 weeks (around 15-16).

2. Filter pressure drops with just small amounts of debris in the pump basket now, as you saw in the videos, 1.5-2psi difference just with a few small leaves. This is also not normal behavior as observed for this system. "Normally" the filter would maintain pressure with significantly more junk in the basket. I've seen that basket with a LOT more junk in it in the past and filter pressure would easily maintain at 20+ psi, depending on how long it had been since I backwashed.

So, while the pressure goes back up to 18 or so after I clean the basket, the overall behavior is not normal.

The pump itself is behaving oddly due to a few leaves in the pump basket. When you had the pump apart, did you check to make sure the impeller was secure on the motor shaft. Also, did you check to see that the diffuser had an o-ring and was in working order?

Yeah, I mentioned in an earlier post that I checked the diffuser o-ring and it was in good shape. Still round, still pliable, not frayed or stretched. It fit snugly, I put some silicone on it and put it back together. The impeller was secure, yes. JamesW mentioned that the impeller could be mismatched for the motor, which is certainly possible, but again, it's been like this for a very long time and only recently started acting strange. So, even if it's the wrong impeller, the pump seemed perfectly happy with it up until recent few weeks.

The motor is a little loud which makes me thing it is bearings. You could just replace the motor with a new motor and even a two speed motor if you want.

It's louder than the video makes it seem. it's not "neighbors are calling the HOA on me" loud -- YET, but I fear it may end up there if the problem gets worse.

I considered replacing the motor (with a single or 2-speed), but I think the whole pump, wet end included, is pretty worn. There were what appeared to be some stress cracks around the diffuser and seal plate, I'm sure every single seal and/or replaceable part inside there needs to be replaced, by that point, I might as well just replace the whole pump.

If I rebuilt the wet end of the pump and put a 2-speed motor on, I'd also need to add another timer... seems that the cost would be within reach of just getting a VS pump and I'd get better energy savings with the VS.

 

[rinaldok]

More pump fun...

So I took the rear cover off the pump. Eeek.



Pump Motor Wiring

Someone's monkeyed around in there before... there's a scorch mark by the top hot wire indicating SOMETHING has shorted out at some point -- whether it was human-induced (errant screwdriver?) or something else, I'll never know. I'm actually more concerned about the breaks in the wire insulation on the hot wires. There's a very significant exposed piece of wire, and a few cracks in the insulation elsewhere. Yowza.

Moving on to the panel...

A couple questions for you experts...

1. It seems that my timer is not grounded???

Timer Wiring 1

Timer Wiring 2

Also in those two pictures you can see that whoever wired this panel had hot (blue) wires going right across the neutral bus block... I did move those out of the way as I just couldn't handle it.

2. I also found something interesting... a capacitor. Can anyone tell me what that would be for?

Capacitor in panel box

The orange lead comes off a 115V/15A breaker. There's a wire nut behind the GFCI plug where the orange wire and 2 black wires tie together. One of the black wires goes into the GFCI plug, the other black wire is the black lead to the capacitor. The cap then has its white lead going to the neutral bus.

For posterity, there's a hot lead out of the GFCI which goes into the switch for the pool light.

If I'm going to be reworking a lot or all of this, and if I may darn well just end up replacing my whole equipment pad at this point... I'd like to have some idea what is going on in this electrical box so I can hopefully clean it up. If I put in a VS pump, I will also be adding a SWG. I'm contemplating changing out the sand filter for a cartridge at the same time... at that point, that's everything. I'd be replacing, replumbing, and rewiring the whole pad.

 

[rinaldok]

Did you guys give up?

 

[JamesW]

Did you get volts and amps?

Did you get vacuum pressure?

 

[JoelFitz]

Your timer is grounded via the enclosure not the actual timer mech. no issue there. The ground bar is beside the GFCI and it appears the larger green wire is from the supply conduit on the far left.

Not much of an idea what the capacitor (if that's what it is) is for. Appears to be wired to the GFCI? Might be a suppressor for noise on the neutral line if I had to guess.

 

[rinaldok]

Did you get volts and amps?

The clamp attachment I ordered for my meter arrived today, but it's getting dark out now. I may go out and take measurements tomorrow, but based on my previous couple posts... I'm not real keen to go poking around in that motor while those wires are live. With the insulation compromised and the wires exposed, bumping or moving one of those wires inadvertently could result in a bad situation. I'm more afraid of what I can't see than what I was able to see. The scorch mark indicates someone already had that problem once before. I can measure the amp draw coming off the timer, but I don't think I'm going to touch anything inside the motor while it's live at this point -- too dangerous.

Did you get vacuum pressure?

Not yet... getting the proper pieces together isn't trivial for someone who doesn't do this stuff for a living. Based on what I've seen leading up to this point, though, I feel like have to replace the pump regardless now. The motor has problems, and the wiring is unsafe in the motor. The wet end would need some refurbishing as well, I might as well just replace the whole thing.

I'm trying to make sense of what's going on in the panel with the electrical so I can get my head around what's going to be involved when I replace the pump.

Aside from some invasive surgery on my plumbing, I'm not sure how I can eliminate any partial suction clogs. The only other thing I've seen people do is use one of those hose bladders to seal the pipe and a garden hose to blow the line out from the pump back to the pool. I don't want to end up with the same problem(s) after the pump is replaced.

I realize that your suggestions for amps/volts and suction on the motor will help isolate the root cause, but like I said the electrical seems unsafe in the motor so I can only do so much there and I'll have to special order the parts online to be able to measure the suction. If I'm going to replace the pump, is it even worth the trouble at this point?

 

[rinaldok]

Your timer is grounded via the enclosure not the actual timer mech. no issue there. The ground bar is beside the GFCI and it appears the larger green wire is from the supply conduit on the far left.

Actually, the conduit on the far left isn't the supply -- that's a 230V run to a hot tub pad (not in use at this time). The supply isn't seen in the pictures, it's on the far right. I honestly don't recall seeing a ground there, there were 2 heave gauge black leads from the main house panel. I'll look tomorrow and see where the main ground is tied in.

Not much of an idea what the capacitor (if that's what it is) is for. Appears to be wired to the GFCI? Might be a suppressor for noise on the neutral line if I had to guess.

I'm not sure what else it would be if not a capacitor? Sure looks like a cap.

It's on the same leg as the GFCI (which in turn feeds the pool light... my assumption was the GFCI had to be on the line with the light since the light is AC and in the water). For whatever reason, the lead off the circuit breaker (15A I believe) is orange, and goes into a wire nut behind the GFCI where it is spliced together with a lead to the GFCI plug and the black lead of the capacitor.

Now I really want to know why that thing is there... and if it needs to be there in future revisions of this panel.

 

[JamesW]

Ok, definitely don’t do anything that you’re not comfortable doing. Safety first.

There are several reasons that knowing the volts and amps will help.

1) To see if the voltage is good. If not, that could be a contributing factor.

2) To know the power draw. At full flow, the pump should be close to drawing the full load amps. If the flow is lower than it should be, the power will drop to lower than normal.

Knowing the motor temperature can help determine if the motor is overheating. If it is, then it will use excess power making heat and that has to be accounted for when assessing power draw.

Knowing vacuum pressure can help determine if the suction line is partially clogged. If it is, then that’s going to still be a problem if the pump is replaced.

If you’re going to replace the pump anyway, you can take off the existing pump and use it to clear the suction lines.

With the pump off, you can sit it next to the pool and run a 2” line into the pool to see if the pump runs properly.

If you can measure the rotational speed in RPM, that would be helpful.

There are a few ways to determine the RPM of a motor. One way is to use an optical tachometer.

Or, you can just replace the pump and hope that it fixes the problem.

 

[xyz]

It's plumbed in -- there are no unions so changing its configuration is not trivial. If/when I end up replacing the pump, I suppose I could perform some kind of surgery then and use this pump to try and clean out the lines.

If you have 6" of pipe on the input and output, you can add unions. Chop,out the amount of pipe the union requires, then glue them in.

To rig rig a separate intake, turn your pump 45 degrees and use a 45 to make space, if it is doable.

 

[rinaldok]

Ok, definitely don’t do anything that you’re not comfortable doing. Safety first.
There are several reasons that knowing the volts and amps will help.
1) To see if the voltage is good. If not, that could be a contributing factor.
2) To know the power draw. At full flow, the pump should be close to drawing the full load amps. If the flow is lower than it should be, the power will drop to lower than normal.

I went out today and veeeeeeery carefully measured the voltage at the motor. It's tight and the insulation on the wires is compromised... no room for error in there with the probes.

I got 240V on the dot, which is exactly what it was at the leads coming off the timer, so voltage is good and there's no loss in the wire. It's a short run, only about 6 feet.

The pump is pulling about 10.4 amps, though, which is almost a full amp higher than the max rated amperage of 9.6 (at 230V) printed on the motor.

Knowing the motor temperature can help determine if the motor is overheating. If it is, then it will use excess power making heat and that has to be accounted for when assessing power draw.

I let the pump run for about an hour and measured surface temp around the whole housing. The sides of the motor, about dead center lengthwise, were the hottest areas... a couple spots were 210F. At the top of the motor it varied from about 180-200 depending on where I was measuring. I'm sure some heat is dissipating from the top as well.

I'm not sure what a normal temp would be, but if this is hotter than it should be it could account for the increased power draw.

Knowing vacuum pressure can help determine if the suction line is partially clogged. If it is, then that’s going to still be a problem if the pump is replaced.

I realize that and understand it, I'm not just equipped at this time to measure it.

If you’re going to replace the pump anyway, you can take off the existing pump and use it to clear the suction lines.
With the pump off, you can sit it next to the pool and run a 2” line into the pool to see if the pump runs properly.

I might be a bit thick here, but I'm not sure how I would go about cleaning the suction lines with the pump. I would have to construct some sort of set of adapters and/or fittings to get this pump to be able to pull suction OUT of the vacuum port and/or skimmer port (reverse of normal flow), right? So... ... where does the water come from? If I put suction on the vacuum line, for example, the other end of that would be back at the pad... would I then have to connect a pipe to the other end and loop it around and back into the pool? Otherwise I'd have no water to suck.

I did try introducing some pressure and turbulence into the vacuum line (didn't have a way to do it to the skimmer yet...) by setting the valve to full vacuum side, disconnecting the hose from the vacuum and then quickly alternating between sucking it to the tile and then quickly pulling it off to cause pressure to spike and then a surge of water turbulence... my hope being if there was anything like leaves in a 90 or something that maybe it would dislodge and flush it through. I had pretty strong suction and nothing came out into the pump basket so either there's nothing clogged in that line or my experiment didn't do anything productive. I will have to figure out how to try to do the same thing on the skimmer.

If you can measure the rotational speed in RPM, that would be helpful.
There are a few ways to determine the RPM of a motor. One way is to use an optical tachometer.

LOL... yeah, no. That's not a common tool to just have laying around the house. Also, how the H would I even do that? How could you measure the RPM of the motor without some part of it being visible somehow?

I appreciate your suggestions but some of them are just not feasible for anyone who isn't a pro... most people are not going to have specialty tools and/or skills to rig things up in ways that you can probably do in your sleep.

It's kind of like me nonchalantly telling someone whose automotive knowledge extends to changing their own oil, air filter, or wiper blades, and saying "sure, just remove the valve covers and the top end of the engine and take the fuel injectors out... it's not too hard." But they'd need a lot of tools they've never heard of and about 20 years of experience working on engines to be comfortable doing that kind of surgery.



- - - Updated - - -

Not much of an idea what the capacitor (if that's what it is) is for. Appears to be wired to the GFCI? Might be a suppressor for noise on the neutral line if I had to guess.

Any chance it could be there to aid startup of the pool light for some reason? When I flick the light on I can see the amp draw spike over 5 for a brief instant and then it settles to about 3.3-3.4, so that's what, a 400W light?