Hayward ED2 good replacement for LAARS LITE 2? (winter pool heating / automation?)

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M

mdrejhon

0
Sep 29, 2014
73
Hamilton, Canada
Hello,

We have decided to replace our pool heater
We are having major leak in the inlets/outlets of our very old early-model LAARS LITE 2 pool heater (analog controls that look like a throwback to the 80s). Got two separate $500 repair quotes, so we've now decided to replace the heater. Multiple recommendations came in (3 different pool stores independently recommended the same heater) -- the HAYWARD ED2 pool heater (250,000 BTU, same heating power) -- Internet research seems to be consistent that this heater seems to be a good model (4.3 stars of 5 on Amazon) -- and the bonus is that it has wire connections for a remote control (standard millivolt system or two-wire). Thus, I can plug it into a home automation system in the future -- something I want -- so I can control the pool heater by iPad later.
Proposed model: HAYWARD ED2? (250K BTU)

We're deciding to replace our pump too
Our old 1.5 HP pump has a rusty motor and drinks electricity like no tomorrow (1400 watts via a Kill-A-Watt measurement), and has no automation features, so we've decided to also replace it too as well. We've read about many pros/cons of variable-speed pool pumps but it seems that the newest models are extremely efficient and the pros outweighs the cons. For summer we can just run it essentially in autopilot. Also, pump will have ProLogic compatibility ($100 extra) so it can be remote controlled / automated later.
Proposed pump: HAYWARD TriStar VS?

Consideration: Our unusual winter-time pump operation
We run our pool 10 months out of 12. To save 70% cost of heating the pool in winter (under $300/month) we only heat at full throttle (never thermostatting) because we turn OFF both the heater and pump at the same time -- if the heater is OFF then the pump must be OFF too -- because we're avoiding circulating unheated water through cold ground pipes. It actually makes a huge difference in heating cost to keep the water stationary when the pool is not in use / not being heated / pool is covered up -- as the pool cools down much more slowly, making it much easier to reheat the pool. When it gets cold enough we'll need to protect pipes by intermittently running the pump/heater for a few minutes once every while (few hours).

Automation Ideas?
For heater, millivolt systems are pretty standard similar to house thermostats and there are already home automation products for these.
For pump, ProLogic can be interfaced to other home automation systems from what I'm reading, though I may need some minor script 'glue'...
Based on my research and script/programmer knowledge -- It looks like I could probably jerryrig some automation scripts in the future (automation hubs, IFTTT, HomeSeer2, or other product) that turns off the pump and heater at the same time whenever the target temperature is reached, and then run both intermittently (full throttle only) to maintain temperature and prevent freezing underground pipes.
We will avoid using pool heater thermostat in freezing weather because it wastes heat/money pumping unheated water through the cold ground 24/7 -- the water will only flow whenever the heater is on.

NOTE:
We've got a unique situation where we usually want to only heat full-throttle, and turn OFF the pool pump AND heater when the pool has slightly exceeded our target temperature.
We're the local experts in cheaply hottubbing a swimming pool.
January 2016 swimming in snowstorm in Canada -- 95F pool temp -- total natgas heating bill was under $300 (pool heating 8 days a month + house heating + cooking)

attachment.php

(poolside snow!)
 
mdrejhon said:
Hello,

We have decided to replace our pool heater
We are having major leak in the inlets/outlets of our very old early-model LAARS LITE 2 pool heater (analog controls that look like a throwback to the 80s). Got two separate $500 repair quotes, so we've now decided to replace the heater. Multiple recommendations came in (3 different pool stores independently recommended the same heater) -- the HAYWARD ED2 pool heater (250,000 BTU, same heating power) -- Internet research seems to be consistent that this heater seems to be a good model (4.3 stars of 5 on Amazon) -- and the bonus is that it has wire connections for a remote control (standard millivolt system or two-wire). Thus, I can plug it into a home automation system in the future -- something I want -- so I can control the pool heater by iPad later.
Proposed model: HAYWARD ED2? (250K BTU)
Click to expand...

Either you were given bad information, you wrote it wrong or something because the ED2 is the OLD Hayward model no longer made.

Do yourself a favor and invest in a Raypak/Rheem unit. Do not install a millivolt system either. Probably against code in your area anyway. You also might want to consider a 400K BTU unit.
 
Hey, Paul, Mdrejon is in Canada. Is there any chance the ED2 is still marketed there?

Mdrejon, just a note for when you automate that I hadn't known until this season...always turn the heater off first to let a bit of cool water run through the heater to cool it down before shutting down the pump ;) So if you DIY on automation, be sure to set it up that way.

PS0303 is referring to the new models of Hayward heater, which reportedly aren't designed the same way as the ED2. So check with your installer that they really mean an ED2...
 
Swampwoman, I suspect that maybe there are a few very old systems floating possibly from someones lost inventory maybe but Hayward stopped making them many years back.
 
Yes, I am in Canada.

3 different pool stores keep recommending the ED2 to me. I think I stared at one other Hayward that had a digital displays & had more ability to do connections for automation.
I know I should not necessarily go just by pool store recommendations, but I did also check Amazon reviews, and others to verify it wasn't a dud.

The ED2 almost $1000 cheaper than other models, and budget is also limited -- but I will study the Raypak/Rheem.

I will go back and re-research, as I don't want to get a dud.
 
mdrejhon said:
Yes, I am in Canada.

3 different pool stores keep recommending the ED2 to me. I think I stared at one that had a digital displays & had ability to do connections for automation.
I know I should not necessarily go just by pool store recommendations, but I did also check Amazon reviews, and others to verify it wasn't a dud.

The ED2 almost $1000 cheaper than other models, and budget is also limited -- but I will study the Raypak/Rheem.

I will go back and re-research, as I don't want to get a dud.
Click to expand...

I'm in Kitchener and I had the ED2 (250K) installed at the beginning of this season. I sourced it through a local heating/cooling company - they don't do just pool work.
It has worked very well and I am very pleased with it. It is silent and it heats my 59,000 litre pool at a bit better that 1 degree F per hour. So far I would recommend it.
 

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I finally had the time to visit some pool stores again, after a busy week.

I looked at the Hayward heaters again, and the Raypak. Most people (including users, not salespeople) I've talked to admitted the ED2 was "the one to get" if I wanted reliability, they agreed the Raypak is easier to repair but trusty ED2's survives very well at least here in Canada.

ED2 also comes in electronic version in Canada & generally widely acclaimed
Every single pool store here (where I am in Canada) everywhere that sells any heaters, has Hayward H-Series ED2's (Hayward Canada), both millivolt & electronic, so they are rather common here, and they are still manufactured new for Canada. They are in stock, a heater can be swapped out and they can be up and running in mere hours in some cases -- installers available everywhere and no waiting for installation to arrive. Heater owners & the stores keep saying they rarely ever need repairs in their lifetimes, especially when installed indoors (shed) with a proper vent and gas line. All of them here have cupro-nickel (better than copper). Users here say they're bulletproof for them. Maybe harder to repair when they need repairs, but if repairs don't happen... It must be the Canadian weather plus the stronger-built quality, and the 'cupro comes standard' nature, I guess -- that keeps the ED2 in market here.

Millivolt Legality Verification
Millivolt is highly widespread here in Canada and not illegal for new sales. But, perhaps I should go digital instead. ED2 comes in millivolt & in electronic version here. Millivolt heaters are sold, and the millivolt versions of Hayward ED2 has hookups for that, so it can still hook into an automation system later.

RayPak
I did look closely at Raypak, and I liked the Raypak Digital Model 266. (266,000 BTU). Very nice model and I like its digital control display. And works with digital automation systems too with -- better and more accurate than millivolt. It looks like this one will be easier to automate. I am now seriously considering whether to opt for this model. Wonder if I should opt for default Copper Fin Tube (or upgrade to ASME Copper Fin Tube, or Cupro-Nickel Fin Tube). If I get the cupro, then it is much more expensive than the Hayward ED2 which already has cupro standard. Since I drive my heater very hard in continuous operation bursts, I need to decide if I should avoid non-ASME copper...

Given I need to occasionally drive the heater extremely hard in long full-throttle bursts -- and I've seen the previous owners rust-up 3 different automatic pool vaccuum mechanisms -- I'm not sure I want to stick to non-ASME-rated copper for a heater that will probably run 15-25 years (indoors...) with occasional driven-hard-operations... Since we're migrating eventually to yearround operations in Canada, I'd like commercial-quality build. But these aren't in stock, so I'll probably have to order one with the upgraded heat exchanger, if none of the Raypak's in stock already has it preinstalled...

Sticking to ~250,000BTU approx range
We are going to stick to the 250K BTU range, because we don't want to dig up our old 1950s era (lead?) gas line to upgrade to beyond 250K BTU flow. There is probably almost 100 feet worth all the way to gas meter and it's not legal to increase BTU blindly. It'll probably cost more to upgrade our labyrinthe gas line for legal 400K BTU flow. We could get the gas line tested for compatibility with higher flow rate, but 250KBTU works fine and successfully maintains and still continues to increment pool temperature >95F steaming hot-tub hot (when covered) even at -10C freezing outside -- so we just have to turn on our heater a few hours earlier for the slightly slower heating rate -- the marginal benefits of >250KBTU seems negligible and for our size setup, sometimes waste more gas per unit of heat for our water flow rate and use cases.

Decision
I have to do some thinking.... Now I have to decide if I want to get the Hayward ED2 Model H250 as planned, or switch to the Raypak Digital Model 266 (+upgrade to ASME or Curpo) to permit me digital thermostat and full digital remote control upgrade path for future.

Now we have two candidates:
-- Hayward ED2 Model H250 (in stock everywhere, cupro standard)
-- Raypak Digital Model 266 (wait longer if I get the ASME or the cupro 'option')

We delayed our ordering, but we'll order this week(ish).
 
One consideration...if you ever plan to go salt, go cupro nickel (either brand). You'd lose 10% heat transfer in coil, but you'd gain in longevity, I suspect.

I've owned both but it'll take 15 years before I know for sure if the Raypak matched the ED2 ;)

My ED2 survived a 2-year foreclosure where the TA and PH had completely crashed. Five years later, it sprung a small leak on the heat exchanger...but given its age and the fact it was copper and I'd switched to salt, it made sense to replace instead of repair.
 
Indeed, we will likely go Hayward ED2 *or* the ASME version (or better) of the Raypak.

But I now have a new problem to decide on. Our pool shed currently is supplied by one 240 volts connection to the main house circuit breaker panel. It is split into two 120V circuits (two fuses, soon to be two circuit breakers). If we go to a 240 volt circuit, we will have to bypass the poolhouse secondary fuses/circuit breakers. And whar of the power outlets (GFCI) we currently have in the shed as this is the workshop room too. And due to the patio stones, we aren't really in a state where we can easily run new wire from the main house circuit breaker panel.

I also found out our pump is actually 1hp, not 1.5hp.

Now we have a choice:
- 115-120 volt pump (replacing current 115 volt pump), preserving two circut breakout for outlets in the pool shed
- 230-240 volt pump (variable speeds are more common with this voltage), creating a new conundrum on how to hook the other power outlets in the poolhouse.

I need to read up on electric code. It is legal to do my own electrical where I am, and I am thr handyman, but the way this is wired is different from what I am used to, and what's already there might no longer be code -- I need to get this checked.

This will create a new delay for pump replacement.
 
Thanks.

Need to clear up a prerequisite first (ugh) -- electrical modernization of the poolhouse.

I have since found it is legal (with caveats) in many places to share the 240-volt circuit (if 4 wire and appropriately sized gauge) with both 240 and 120 volt appliances, at least through an appropriate secondary breaker panel (with its own master 240V breaker and two 120V breakers). I will need to verify what is applicable to my location.

A 240 volt pump would use only fraction of the rated amperage of the conductors, leaving plenty of room for two 120V workshop outlets. And even less at lower speeds during variable speed operation. All 120V appliances used in the workshop are 7amp or less, so the breakers won't trip while a 240V pump is at max speed AND there is workshop equipment simultaneously in use. In fact, calculations indicate I can use one full power (120V 15A) appliance simultaneously with 240V pump at max power (1.5hp + margin, ~2kW-ish, assuming 8 amp), on the same paired circuit, without issues. The wires between the house and the poolhouse look like oversized 60 amp wires even though the house main panel is protecting them with a paired (240V) 30amp breaker.

(A) One paired breaker on main panel (240V 30A) ─────> (B) 100ft run to poolhouse ────> (C) Secondary panel (240V) ───> (D) Two 120V circuits


To share 240V and 120V appliances on same circuit, the concept is much like the 120V power outlet on some 240V kitchen stoves...

In this case, a 240V pump would be wired after the master breaker of the secondary panel, but before the breakers of the two 120V circuits [if legal to do so in my area]. Both the "master" breaker (of the secondary panel) and the upstream breaker (on the main house panel) would still protect the 240V pool pump -- and any piggybacked 120V circuits, which would ultimately have their own additional secondary breakers -- protected by a full chain of 4 breakers on my property: main panel master breaker (200A), main panel paired breaker (30A), secondary master breaker (30A), secondary breaker (15A)!

To be code in certain jurisdictions it seems (maybe not mine or yours, I'm still verifying), the shared neutral conductor needs to be rated for totalled amperage for both the 240V pool pump AND the 120V outlets, for safety's sake, even though the amperage doesn't happen in practice (due to opposite phases). Even if the wires are rated at only 30A, it appears I _may_ already be golden there because I'll be (according to some jurisdictions, legally) protecting the circuits through both a master and secondary panel. So, I'll be double-checking code compliance here, consulting an electrician, but I now know this is (conditionally) legal in at least some jurisdictions, at least for thick 4-wire, the same type used for stoves...

So I still (probably) need an electrician anyway since the secondary fuse panel needs to be replaced with a secondary circuit breaker panel. Need sage advice and code verification (for my area).

Now currently seeking advice on that "secondary panel modernization" prerequisite (even regardless of whatever pump or pump voltage I get), stand by...
 
Yes, you are correct. It is fine to run 4 wire service from a 240v breaker in your main panel to a 240v sub-panel. Red 110v, black 110v, white neutral and green ground. Then you can install 240v breakers or 110v breakers. Need to make sure the breaker is sized for the load and the wire is sized for the breaker. An electrician is a good idea.
 
EDIT: Figured out; I will need to have a small electric subpanel, the kind with about 8 flexible breaker slots, and be able to add 240V and 120V circuits in any combination. Problem solved. The master safety switch (probably a separate box before the panel) would be 240V 30A to handle the existing wire run between buildings, and easily turn off the whole shed's power.

Visited pool store again to look at more heaters & pumps, and get information on power consumption needs. I checked the specs of the Hayward TriStar VS again. It runs from 0.4 amp all the way to 11 amp. (Wow, what a wide variability range! Also, since a 1.85hp variable-speed is replacing a 1hp fixed-speed pump, we'll likely program a maximum speed in order to prevent sucking air at the skimmer, which will probably result in closer to 6 or 7amp max, anyway. Except when vaccuuming of course, when the extra suction is welcome!)
 
The pump voltage & automation is a solved problem for me with the Hayward TriStar VS....

EDIT: I'm researching what I will need to do to be able to later remotely view & control the temperature of the pool. It appears I can get a separate temperature sensor for that (various kinds of options are available) to do that, bypassing the heater's thermostat and just using 2-wire remote automation for custom temperature monitoring/control of the pool.

In the long term I'll program some features including a "target temperature reached" routine (running the pump for a few minutes after heater turns off, then completely stopping the pool pump to preserve heat in the water -- saves a lot of wasted heat continually pumping hot water through cold in-ground pipes during pool operation in late fall/winter/early spring), with programmed brief intermittent full-throttle runs of the heater to maintain temperature & prevent pipes from freezing -- for our future yearround operation of our outdoor pool, weekend temperature 95F and mid-week temperature gradual-climbdown to 70F. I'd like to later automate this routine a little, to make it easier to efficiently keep a pool hot at the lowest possible cost, like I'm already doing manually.
 
Short term if you go with a fireman's switch (the cheap kind that just turns the whole heater off) there is THIS type of thermometer that can monitor the pool water itself:
Amazon.com: Ambient Weather WS-14 Wireless 8-Channel Floating Pool and Spa Thermometer: Home Kitchen

I just bought it as I'm trying to dial in my best heat-use strategies for when the dome comes. Tonight's my first try with it...range is great. Its updating wherever I am in the house. It can handle up to 8 probes, so I'll also be using a probe in my insulated pipe box to set alarm if pipes get cold in dormant winter use.
 

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