Hey there, intro, my story.

[Chasville]

Introducing myself -- an old newbie.

Bought a house 2 years ago with an inground pool. Never owned or managed a pool before.
First year, first opening, what a mess, too many trees near the uncovered pool. lots of vacuuming, scooping, bleach, backwashing, etc. Finally got into a routine, about 4 gallons a week.
Then got the Del Ozonator, then the FloatTron, down to one gallon a week.
Installed a new timer for the pump so that it didn't run 24/7, and had a leak (pool light) fixed.
Next a pool cover.
Pump motor failed in November. Decided to get new pump, not simply replace the motor (Enter the Northstar)
Last year, late opening by the pool guy. Lots better, Used only about 5 or 6 gal of bleach all season.
Repaired the Aquabot multiple times, decided I needed a new one this year.
This year, uncovered the pool myself, wanted to be totally "chemical" free. Guess that's not going to happen.

PUt one gallon of bleach down the skimmer, water turned blue but did not clear.
Finally got the new Aquabot Turbo - T2 because the old Turbo really did die this time -- housing broke.
Still no clarity. So, back to the Internet, found this place, like this place, joined this place.

So, Sand? ZeoLite? DE? Cartridge? Activated Charcoal? Hmmm.
Not sure if I will replace the S-200, but I am definitely going to replace at least its sand with new.
Today I bought some DE from Lowe's, added a cup to the skimmer, +1 psi !, in a few hours +5 psi ! going to leave it through tomorrow before I backwash again.

After much consideration, I like the idea of sand+DE that I found here, in this place. Makes a lot of sense. Seems to be a good compromise for ease of maintenance+cost.

Only, the water is very old, essentially, and I'm afraid to drain and refresh from scratch as the water table in my yard is high, there's lots of clay, poor drainage, no drought this year. I'm afraid the concrete bottom half will float up enough to break the plastic plumbing. I have no clue as to how they were able to successfully get the pool in in the first place.

So, what I would like to do is run the water through an Activated Charcoal filter for a while to truly clean the water, and then rebalance the mineral content. I think It's a bit saturated with sodium, because I can't seem to get a build up of copper from the ionizer, and it has been more than one complete season now. I was thinking of getting a DE filter, and using the AC in it first, then replace with DE. Not going to do that now. DE in sand is better idea, and I'm not going to drop > $300 for a one time use.

Why no chlorine? I used to swim competitively, and hate the idea of swimming in toxic stuff = cholorine. Of course, copper is somewhat toxic itself. So, I may end up having to use some chlorine, at least at the opening. Then again, maybe the ionizer is broken (my luck).

I have an AquaChem 6-way "Professional" test kit (from -- oh no -- Walmart), but the manual has been lost.
The alkalinity test is 3 chemicals, by the way.
pH seems to be about 7.2 to 7.6, its hard for me to tell.
Hardness, I added 5 drops for the color to change to blue
Alkalinity, I added 4 drops for the color to clear.
I hope that was correct.
CYA? Stablizer test tube is broken and ....

So, that's where I'm at.
Any clues on how to test Sodium levels?
Any ideas on where I could get the water tested in a mass spectrometer? (geek/nerd that I am).

Oh, I love the NorthStar -- very quiet, great basket.
I like the idea of swimming in oxygenated water.
Want to minimize chemistry as much as possible.
The Turbo-T2 works very well, it actually does free itself from the stairs. Only thing is that sometimes it gulps and traps air and stays running around the surface, only twice so far.
FloatTron? jury is still out. Can't really tell. I think it may have gotten broken somehow last year.

OK, I think that's more than enough said so far.

 

[ideliver]

so what kills the bacteria that get into your pool?

 

[reebok]

Ideliver: The ozonator and floatron. If you look at del's website, they actually have a sizing chart due using ozone only (no chemicals).
Chas: But I think some of the mods here will be able to set your mind at ease about chlorine. Did you swim competitively in indoor pools? They generally have much higher chlorine concentrations than outdoor. And there's drinking water that uses chlorine, including wells (or at least, the well at my workplace).

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Hi and Welcome:

Virtually all problems "associated" with chlorine are actually from high CC levels - combined chloramines from improper water chemistry, not the chlorine itself.

Please read this article:

http://www.troublefreepool.com/alternative-sanitizers-and-chemical-free-pools-the-truth-t3025.html

You do not want to put copper in your pool.

 

[PaulR]

Any clues on how to test Sodium levels?

AquaCheck salt strips.
--paulr

 

[Chasville]

Got a response from AquaChem:

Alkalinity = drops * 10, so my TA = 40ppm

Hardness = drops * 50, so my CH? TH? = 250ppm

Today, got home, psi up 7or8 from "normal" skimmed an did a backwash, added/replenished the DE (1 cupish).
Psi is building slowly again.
Water is clearing, can barely see the drain cover on the 9' bottom.
Brushed and running T2 again for 4 hours.
Things are looooooking gooood (Chico and the Man memory).
So far only 3 gallons of bleach.

The ozone is the best oxidizer (2 vs. 1.? for chlorine = #2 spot).
Ozone is also a sterilizer/sanitizer for the water in the pipe that it mixes with before it is blown out into the pool. But, ozone is supposed to dissipate after about 20 to 30 minutes, perhaps less, so it never reaches the walls and floor.
Silver ions from the Floatron is supposed to work in the pool.
Copper ions from the Floatron is supposed to at best suppress the algae, but the "tech" thinks it kills algae outright. I did too, at first. Only I can't get the copper level up above 1ppm. It is supposed to be at 3ppm.

I swam competitively indoors and outdoors -- backstroke, wasn't very good/fast, although faster than the jocks who didn't swim on a team! which was fun giving them a head start doing the crawl, and I still, well, ... let's say they were surprised.

I use a Brita filter for my water at home and at work, makes a difference, especially when I lived in Chicago. Here in NC it does more to remove the last vestiges of sediment and the chlorine than anything else. In Chicago, if I left a class of tap water out over night, it had the most awful smell and tast the next morning, like you could taste/smell oil from the pumps. Here, it can sit for a few days ( a little brown sediment may precipitate) but it still takes "sweet" and no chemical smells.

My routine is to run the Aquabot twice a week. I get a lot of debri in the pool, leaves, seeds, nuts, branches, pine needles, voles, moles, beetles, dirt, etc. Have to skim every day, and clear the skimmer basket.

I don't want to adopt the Borax thing because it could act like an insecticide. Boric acid is the best roach buster there is. It's also used in preparations to treat wood against termites and ants. I don't mind the spiders on the rim. Also, we get bees (honey bees?) landing on the pool to drink. It's amazing. I'll post a picture later. It'll take a bit of work to process it down to size and still look right. I also had frogs last year, including a pretty big bull frog. But, my wife was freaked a bit, and didn't want to share the pool so I had to routinely capture them and drop the outside the yard fence. Of course, they would always find their way back in.

The truth is, if you don't want algae and other gunk in your water, you have to have some toxic stuff of some kind in there. After reading and with my little experience, I don't think I'll be able to be completely chlorine free, but at least the levels will be way lower.

Well, nough for now.
Hope you don't my rambling some.
Thanks for the sodium test response. Gotta check it out.
Ooops, gotta check the water level -- refill after extensive backwash.

 

[JasonLion]

You really don't want your copper level at 3 ppm. The Floatron recommends an ion level of 0.3 ppm. Even at 0.3 ppm you are at risk for copper stains.

 

[Chasville]

Oops, forgot the decimal point, my bad.

I think I figured out what was "wrong" with the FloatTron. I think I wasn't properly cleaning the central electrode. I did a much thorough job this morning. So, I'll see what happens.

Hmmm, let's consider some logic/facts here.
Chlorine is used in municiple water supplies as a disenfectant/sanitizer/sterilizer/whatever.
Pumbing is copper, and the best chefs use copper pots for some of their cooking, especially if it involves egg whites.
Copper is a mineral nutrient.
Chlorine is a poison.
Too much copper is also toxic.
The only copper stains I have had in the pool are on the stainless steel ladder, and maybe the casing around the light fixture.
Copper at least inhibits the growth of algae, it may actually kill algae, but not as fast as chlorine.

My pool is not a public pool, like a Y or park district or health club or school pools are.
The level of toxins in the water can be and will be less for that very reason.

Now, if I have had at best about .1 to .2 ppm copper in the water, and only needed to use a gallon of chlorine once a month or every two weeks, that is a lot better than 4 gallons a week, don't you think?

How do you find out what are the allowable levels of various toxins in our drinking water?
When I shower, my hair changes shades/hues from the shampoo, not the water.
If my pool works with .2 ppm copper and .5 ppm chlorine, isn't that a good thing?
I'm still working this stuff out.
I've already spent the > $1000 for the Ozonator and > $100 for the Floatron, so I am going get the most value out of them that I can, shouldn't I?
And the point of the Floatron was not as much to save money, but to not use chlorine + an acidic stablizer + buffering + ... which are definitely not good for the environment. I also want to reduce the sodium levels in the water, which are terrible for the soil. If I do this right, I'll be able to backwash the water into my landscaping. Right now, due to the sodium levels, that's not such a good thing. Using chlorine and other chemicals all are paired with sodium, which is not what I want.

So, call me different.

And, again, I'm really liking this idea of adding DE to the sand filter. I'm hoping this eliminates the need for a clarifier/floculant.

 

[PaulR]

Pumbing is copper, and the best chefs use copper pots for some of their cooking, especially if it involves egg whites.

Household plumbing is typically copper, but whenever I see a crew digging up the street, it looks like galvanized or ceramic, not copper. Don't know about copper pots, the only copper on mine is cladding on the bottom (outside) of the stainless pots.

When I shower, my hair changes shades/hues from the shampoo, not the water.

Tap water doesn't have a whole lot of copper in it, as most of the plumbing it goes through (i.e. in the street) is not copper.

If my pool works with .2 ppm copper and .5 ppm chlorine, isn't that a good thing?

Very hard to maintain .5ppm chlorine in an outdoor pool. That's why we recommend CYA and a bit more chlorine, which maintains a disinfecting level of chlorine more like what you're saying.

So, call me different.

Okay, you're different. And I don't know enough to say you're wrong; just that some of the assumptions don't sound right to me.
--paulr

 

[chem geek]

It's simply a spectrum of risk and using silver or copper as the primary sanitizer (without chlorine) for the bulk pool water is riskier than using even a very small amount of chlorine. I'm sorry, but there is no way around that. Silver and copper simply do not kill nearly as quickly as chlorine (and do not inactivate viruses much at all) and they have the very nasty side effect of staining if the levels get too high or the pH gets high.

By the way, silver and copper are also "poisons" as is plain table salt if you eat too much of it. The dosing of chemicals is important to understand. The 50 ppm Borates suggested for some pools is mostly boric acid in the pool, but it isn't just used as an insecticide (at VERY high concentrations of at least one tablespoon in 4 ounces which is 18,800 ppm), but is also used as an ocular wash (one tablespoon in one quart is 2350 ppm) -- and a douche as well (1 teaspoon in one pint -- 1566 ppm).

If you want to use metal ions and don't mind the risk of staining, then you can use relatively low levels of chlorine. This is similar to using an algaecide (such as PolyQuat 60) or a phosphate remover to control algae. However, by low levels of chlorine I mean still having at least 1 ppm FC in the water so that you don't run out of chlorine locally nor get to zero from breakdown in sunlight. You can operate at a high CYA level of 80 ppm and the active chlorine concentration would be very low -- technically equivalent to around 0.01 ppm with no CYA. This won't be as sanitary as a commercial/public pool, but it should be fine for a residential situation. The primary reason for the higher chlorine levels in our chlorine/CYA charts is to prevent algae growth. It also kills bacteria and inactivates viruses faster, but that's not as important in a residential pool where one sick person doesn't generally infect dozens of others.

I am totally missing your point about sodium. Are you concerned with the slow buildup of salt in the pool when using chlorine? As for chemicals when using chlorine alone, if the pool is properly managed then it's pretty much only chlorine you add to it and perhaps a small amount of acid. That's it (once you've set up your chemical levels properly). I spend $15 per month on chlorine for my 16,000 gallon pool and that's it (for chemicals). It does have a pool cover and that helps cut down chlorine usage a lot as it's around 0.8 ppm FC per day even with the pool used 1-2 hours every day and I only need to add chlorine twice a week. The pH is nearly rock solid and I add a small amount of acid every month or two.

Also, as far as your competitive swimming, if it was indoors or in a pool without Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in it, then it was likely significantly overdosed with chlorine (by a factor of 10-20 or more) and that can lead to more disinfection by-products (especially nitrogen trichloride) that can be irritating. You won't get that in your outdoor pool exposed to sunlight with better air circulation and with CYA in the pool. The "active" chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level in the pools people have here on this forum following the chlorine/CYA chart have the equivalent of 0.04 to 0.15 ppm Free Chorine (FC) with no CYA. CYA acts as a chlorine buffer and significantly reduces its reactivity, but fortunately it takes a very low level of reactivity to kill pathogens and even to prevent algae from growing.

Richard

 

[Chasville]

Just a quick note:

Normal pressure = about 25 psi on 100 psi gauge from Lowes when pulling from both skimmer and main drain.
Last night was running at about 28?
Timmer shuts off pump and stuff at about 9pm
Turns on at about 8am.
Today, before and after Church, gauge was at about 25 psi.
Curious.
I had decided I was going to backwash today, so I did anyway. Didn't take long to clear (duhhh).
This time it took 2 cups of D.E. to raise the pressure 1 psi.
Pool is a bit more clear yet.
Nice and sunny today, so I'm going to retest all the tests I have again a bit latter.

I'll respond to the last to posts when I get back on with the test results.
I also think I'm going to have go back over the numbers and start being more careful about the decimal points. I want to be more certain about the numbers I'm reporting and discussing.

OH, the SODIUM thing has most to do with being able use the backwashed water in our landscaping. Sodium is NOT good for many plants.
And yes, many things are toxic in too high a concentration, very few things are not ever toxic in some manner. Even pure distilled water is toxic, in that doesn't take much to drown a person with it (this is meant to be a tongue in cheek joke, which is hard to convey in text only).

 

[JasonLion]

The sodium levels in swimming pool water will not have any effect on most plants. Only especially salt sensitive plants will notice it at all, and they are fairly rare. There is some risk of sodium levels building up over time from repeated does of pool water in especially arid areas, but in NC that shouldn't happen.

 

[Chasville]

Testing results:
Sorry I'm late, I promised these yesterday = Sunday, 06/07/09

Temp=75 F

First:
Floatron Copper Test kit
Cu = 0.05 ppm, definite, pretty much same as I had last year.

Second:
AquaChem 6-way "Professional" Test Kit from Wal-Mart
Cl = 0
pH = 7.6 ? I can hardly tell. My wife says closer to 6.8 because she saw some orangishness
TA = 40ppm; 3 drops = slight color still in water, 4 drops definitely clear
Hardness = 250ppm? Started Pink, not violet not lavender, at 3 drops = violet, 4 was bluer, 5 was babyish blueish, similar to the color I see on the sides of this website, perhaps a little grayer?
Stablizer = 0; seemed perfectly clear to me. Solution bad? or really none?

Third:
AquaChem test strip, from Wal-Mart
stablizer = 0
TA = 40
pH = LOW
FC = B = 1 or 2? really?
TC = 0
TH Between 250 and 1000 (last two divisions)

Fourth:
Red Sea test kit for Aquarium
6.2 to 7.4 pH test = 6.9

Today = Monday, 6/8/09
Can clearly see the main drain now.
Changed filter from main only to main + skimmer (Pool Man put in a 3-way valve, as I have two pipes sticking up from the ground).
PSI = 30 again, so backwashed.
Leaving on both, about 24 to 24.5 PSI after backwash.
Added about 2 cups DE, PSI = 25, then hour later 25.5 to 26.
Running Aquabot T2 for 3 hours.

My plan is to keep using the DE, about 2 cups after a backwash.
We'll see how this progresses, if the backwash schedule broadens or not.

I like C&S Pools -- my pool people -- Steve is a great guy.
I'm going to get a better testing kit from him. Let you know what.

I think my next step is to raise the pH.
I want a better/newer/fresher CYA test, then I'll test for that again.
I'm also going to see what Steve has for pH testing, as I will run out of the Red Sea stuff and little chance of a refill here (brought here from Chicago).

Is there a real chemist in the house?
What does ozone really do to plastics -- specifically PVC plumbing -- and chemicals in the water?
My ozonatar is a retrofit to the plumbing, which means it does not bubble up through the deep end from its own port. Instead, it is mixed into the water return immediately after the sand filter. So, all the water in the pipe effectively gets ozonated. The clear feeder tubing has turned white from the ozone. If all the water in the pool is circulated through the system during the day, then all the water in the pool has been ozonated at some point. So, what does this do to the silver ions? what does this do to the copper ions? what does this do to the chlorine? what does this do to calcium ions? what does this do to carbonates? what does this do to acids (CYA and Muratic)?

 

[frankthailand]

Water is clearing, can barely see the drain cover on the 9' bottom

hmmm
Happy swims
Frank

 

[chem geek]

I like C&S Pools -- my pool people -- Steve is a great guy.
I'm going to get a better testing kit from him. Let you know what.

I think my next step is to raise the pH.
I want a better/newer/fresher CYA test, then I'll test for that again.
I'm also going to see what Steve has for pH testing, as I will run out of the Red Sea stuff and little chance of a refill here (brought here from Chicago).

Is there a real chemist in the house?
What does ozone really do to plastics -- specifically PVC plumbing -- and chemicals in the water?
My ozonatar is a retrofit to the plumbing, which means it does not bubble up through the deep end from its own port. Instead, it is mixed into the water return immediately after the sand filter. So, all the water in the pipe effectively gets ozonated. The clear feeder tubing has turned white from the ozone. If all the water in the pool is circulated through the system during the day, then all the water in the pool has been ozonated at some point. So, what does this do to the silver ions? what does this do to the copper ions? what does this do to the chlorine? what does this do to calcium ions? what does this do to carbonates? what does this do to acids (CYA and Muratic)?

I would strongly suggest you get either the Taylor K-2006 kit at a good online price here or the TF100 test kit from tftestkits.net here with the latter kit having 36% more volume of reagents so is comparably priced per test. These test kits use a FAS-DPD chlorine test which measures accurately to within 0.2 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) and Combined Chlorine (CC) (with a 25 ml sample; or within 0.5 ppm with a 10 ml sample) and can measure up to 50 ppm (see a demo here). A standard DPD chlorine test bleaches out above 10 ppm and isn't as accurate. Also, in the TF100 kit, the CYA can be measured down to 20 ppm (it's down to 30 ppm in the Taylor K-2006). See a comparison of test kits here.

I'll let others comment about ozone and plastics -- ozone is a very strong oxidizer, but I don't know how resistant plastics are, especially near where it is generated. As for ozonating all of the water, understand that it takes 4.6 turnovers of water for 99% of the water to get through your filtration and ozonation system. Bacteria double in population every 15-60 minutes and the ozone does nothing for pathogens growing on pool surfaces or stuck in biofilms and will do nothing for preventing transmission from person to person (including the fecal to oral route). Again, it's a spectrum of risk -- just don't fool yourself into thinking your pool is as safe as a pool using an EPA-approved sanitizer (chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB). Commercial/public pools are REQUIRED to use a residual EPA-approved sanitizer -- ozone is NOT a residual sanitizer while copper/silver are residual chemicals but do not kill quickly enough to be classified as swimming pool disinfectants according to EPA DIS/TSS-12.

Ozone does nothing to silver or copper ions. Ozone can oxidize chlorine to chlorate so sometimes you will find a higher chlorine usage when using an ozonator while sometimes it's lower -- it depends on how much there is to oxidize so usually high bather load pools do better with ozone lower chlorine usage while in low bather load pools it's usually the opposite. Ozone does not affect calcium nor carbonates. Acids are irrelevant -- ozone does not affect sodium or chloride, hydrogen or hydroxyl ions. Ozone might accelerate oxidation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA), but probably not by that much as I haven't seen reports in CYA dropping in pools or spas using ozone, but then again not many pools use ozone.

Richard

 

[Chasville]

Re: Hey there, intro, my story, pictures added

Pictures? Ok.
Only I forgot my password to Flickr, so these'll be limited
The pool
[attachment=2:39abm44s]c079_2643_resized.JPG[/attachment:39abm44s]

The trees
[attachment=1:39abm44s]AAA_1742_smaller.JPG[/attachment:39abm44s]

The Mechanicals
[attachment=0:39abm44s]AAA_1734_smaller.JPG[/attachment:39abm44s]

Apparently I'm limited to 3 pictures in this reply.
Oh well, too bad, wish I hadn't forgotten/lost my flickr password, then I could upload all I want and simply give yose a link to my stuff.

 

[Chasville]

Ok, I tested the pH again this morning with the Red Sea kit that uses bromthymol blue (I think that's right?)
And this time I got pH < 7.4 for the "high" scale (7.4 to 8.?) and pH about 7.2 or 7.4 on the "Low" scale (6.2 to 7.4). This is confusing.

On a good note, the water is much clearer now, thank's to DE in the sand filter trick, learned here.
The main drain is now clearly visible from most any location around the pool.

because I seem to be having difficulty getting reliable readings, I'm research testing stuff.
The ColorQ from LaMotte seems promising.

 

[reebok]

there is a good thread about that here if you haven't seen it yet:
lamotte-colorq-water-tester-t932.html

 

[Chasville]

Pardon me for a moment >>> :grrrr: fat fingers, lost my post, have to retype ... :grrrr:

OK, what did I say? Alheimer's (not really) can't, oh well.

First = first use of pool this season = YESTERDAY ! (Saturday, 6/13/09) YEAH!
8) :lol: :-D

I think I'm finally getting consistency with the pH testing.
I had been keeping the chemistry in the garage = too much temperature variation.
Wife has concurred that the colors = about 7.4 to 7.6 pH.
Since I'm not really using Chlorine, etc. we've decided to forgo purchasing any testing kits until I've used up the chemicals I have.

Pool continues to clear, approaching sparkling.
Was running only the main drain, now running both skimmer and main drain to keep the surface crud under better control.
Still doing daily backwashes, looking forward to not having to, but I think the DE trick is worth every dollar.
As a result of this, in the interest of whatever you want to call it, I have decided to upgrade the S-200 (200 pounds of sand) to a much bigger filter this winter, after/at winterization. Not sure if 900 pounds of sand would be overkill and put too much strain on the platform, but at least 400 or 600 pounds would be better than 200 pounds.

Now, if I ... no, don't go there, not here, not now, wait for the filter discussions another time, aaaahhhhhhh !!!!

I am still showing only 0.05 ppm copper.
I am wondering if the ozone treatment is oxidizing the ions, effectively removing the metallic copper ions from the water.
Is it possible that 0.05ppm is the best equillibrium I'm going to reach with my setup?
Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Chasville]

Today's = 6/26/09 testing

Strips = worthless, tested tap water and the pool water, came out same. They go in the garbage.

Using the Red Sea kit
ph = 7.4+
NO₂ (Nitrite) = maybe .1

Using AquaChem kit
pH = 7.6
TA = 50 ppm
TH = 300 ppm

Using Floatron Copper kit
I may have not been reading this properly before.
The solution has a definite blue cast.
It does seem a little darker.
Did the comparison differently this time.
Wife concurrs on the color
between .2 and .3 ppm
So, the Floatron has been removed from the pool and will be in storage for a while.

As noted in the Algae forum, I may have some black algae.
I believe it is inherited from when I got the pool.
I had some on my steps, and successfully eradicated it with direct application of dry shock.
I am going to attempt the same on this other spot.
I don't want to drive the copper level up any higher, and from what I can tell from reading, etc. black algae is difficult to remove and requires a high concentration of poison. That's why I'm going to go with direct application of dry shock and let it sit on the stuff and slowly desolve.

My using ozone and copper is an experiment I started 2 summers ago. If you aren't the experimental type, just stick with the BBB method presented on this board. It is cheaper, better proven, and more sanitary for general pool use. I have said and will continue to say, it is impossible to go completely chlorine/poison free. My goals are slightly different than the average pool owner/user, that is why i'm being different.

I have dropped my DE use from 1 cpu to 1/2 cup in my 200 lb sand filter. 1 cup increased the back pressure only .5 PSI but i seemed to be having to backwash every day. I expect the pool could be clearer yet than it is, but I need to start conserving on the water some now, since I'm going to be loosing more to evaporation throughout the rest of the summer.