pebbletec stained

Jump to latest Follow Reply
O

outdoorsgal

LifeTime Supporter
Jan 24, 2015
943
Phoenix, AZ
I have been playing the pb's game of having techs who don't know anything come out to tell me why my in-floor is not performing properly (getting closer to a resolution with that, I think, finally) and in the meantime I've left a lot more dirt on the floor for a much longer period of time than I would normally so that i could show the pb that the in-floor wasn't working. After a good brushing I found some spots on the floor. Weird that they are more circle spots, (like 4 inch round circles in one area verses feet of staining as the dirt was spread across several feet) (accept one in the corner, which it almost seems dirt could still be stuck in since the brush doesn't seem to fit well in that area (I might buy a rounded brush for the corners). My CC is 0 so it's not algae.

Any info on how to tell if it's a stain and if so, how to get it out... along with tips on fighting with the pool company on this one would be appreciated.

I'm sure someone will want pics and I can get those on here, probably over the weekend. Those things always take me some time. thx!!
 
Please post a full set of current test results.
How does your water look?
Pics of the affected areas may also help.

Just because your CC is zero doesn't mean it isn't algae. Of course it could be a lot of other things too. Let's start with current test results and we can go from there.
 
I am going through the same here. I ran the tests and found that my pH was too high. I think that I had some algae (low Cl) that was covered up with calcium (high pH). I lowered my pH and and raised my Cl and brushed it down. The staining is reducing and I will keep this up and see if it disappears.

This may not be your problem but it seems to be mine
 
Sometimes I take too much time in between posts but that doesn't mean I'm not interested or grateful for the help. I will retest tomorrow but this is what I got last time I did a full set on the 20th.
FC=2 at the time. I don't believe it to have gone under 2 and tend to leave it closer to 5 but it does drop down throughout the day, esp during transition from heat to summer to now
CC=0
CH=600
TA=170
CYA=80 (salt pool)
pH= 8.2 (i drop it once or twice a week to 7.2 by adding acid using poolmath

thx!
 
I totally agree with pooldv. Your CSI is probably hovering around the +1.0 mark (you didn't supply your current pool temp, so can't give an exact number based on your supplied testing results). With high evaporation and high CH fill water in the Phoenix area, it's extremely important to keep your water balanced better. Given your reported CH of 600 and TA of 170 - along with pH of 8.2, you aren't doing your pool surface (or your pool surface warranty) any favors.

Additionally, with a CYA of 80, your FC is way too low (even for using a SWCG). The FC should NEVER go below the minimum listed on the Chlorine/CYA Chart for your CYA level. If it does, you are leaving yourself wide open for algae and sanitation issues.

As a suggestion, you may want to review the following:
Pool School
Chlorine / CYA Chart
Pool Math
 
20160907_142057.jpg
i'll redo the #s and include temp. thx for the info! the staining is more of a brown color, that's why I was thinking it was a dirt stain. PB came out today and he said "it's not algae. your water looks well maintained" just by looking at it. he suggested i use a stainless steel brush. I had just got the wall whale as I had seen it was recommended by someone on this site and I was thinking of getting something for the corners? or he had a stainless steel brush that curved on the sides. 20160907_102628.jpg this pic is hardly worth including as u prob can't see the spots. i can cuz it's my pool and I might be overanalyzing this but since we're in the middle of dealing with warranty dept and i am trying to know my pool it was important to me when i saw it.
this following pic could be scaling? when the lights are on at night i can see what looks like where the pebble was brushed on (although it was sprayed on i believe?). there's still dirt on the bottom that i was trying to brush into the drain so that may make it harder to see what the bottom looks like. water is crystal clear if u ask me. it's never been cloudy since i've had it, yet, although we have had algae.

- - - Updated - - -

20160907_102642.jpgthis was taken on a cloudy/sprinkly day today so we were able to get a pretty good look at the floor. during sunshine it looks great, much harder to see anything wrong with it
 
Scale can appear as brownish stains. Does it feel raised or rough? Algae, dirt and cloudy water have no relevance to scale. If those numbers are typical then scale is likely.
 
stains don't appear to be raised.
full set of #s from 7:35 am this morn:
temp 84
pH 7.8
FC=5
CC=0
CH=675
TA= 140
CYA= 50
water's always crystal clear accept we had some doing a hydrolic study on the pool for the in-floor system (highly recommended btw!-not sure if I can post his info here or if someone wants it they could PM me. I got his info from someone else on this site who he helped with their infloor) and he did forget to shut off the quick skim when he added DE and so now the pool is a bit cloudy since it blew the DE into the pool.

My CYA number went down, in part maybe since we've backwashed the pool a couple of times lately (and pb is wanting to do another filter cleaning monday-they think they're starting from scratch before they try to diagnose why the in-floor doesn't work.

thx!
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
I urge you to read all of the links that were posted for you. I'm not one of the experts but your TA and CH levels look far away from where they need to be. I know this can really impact the health of your plaster. Also, you should go ahead and add a little liquid bleach. With a CYA of 50 you want to aim for an FC of 6 to keep away the algae. You're currently at the very minimum acceptable amount to prevent an algae bloom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Previously, you reported a CYA of 80 from a test on 8/20. Today you reported a CYA of 50. Not taking any testing error into account, you would have needed to change out 38% of your 14.4K pool volume to effect such a change. It's doubtful that a couple of backwashes would use that much water.

Please explain exactly how you are performing the CYA test. Also, do you pour the same mixed solution back into the mixing bottle and perform the test 3 times - and compare those results? Doing so will add consistency to you CYA testing.

With respect to the PB wanting to do another cleaning on Monday, it may be better to have them totally take the DE filter apart to completely clean it. This will give you a totally clean filter and a good baseline filter pressure.

Take all the latest test results, plug them into PoolMath and report the CSI result here. I already did, but it will be good practice for you to do it so you get a better feeling on using PoolMath for yourself. Then, tell us whether you think the water is too aggressive or not and what YOU think you should do - if anything. We can go from there and help you get the water chemistry adjusted correctly.
 
no, i don't test the CYA 3 xs with the same water, but that's a good idea. I usually test it twice. I think the first time at 80 I was trying to be "safe" where if I thought I couldn't see the dot but wasn't sure I'd go with that number as I read how it's not easy to get rid of CYA if you put too much in your pool. I have it waste level with the sun to my back. from my recollection I think I had added 2 full canisters of Cya. I'd have to look back to confirm.

i use poolmath regularly for pH. i added a good 6 cups this week (3 separate days). seems like a lot.

PB was here to clean DE filter. said it wasn't too dirty. He took it all apart and added in 6 pound of DE and with that and the hydrolics guy who changed some things now my water valve gets up to 20 pounds on one area and 16-17 on other areas. Still wanting to see it up to 20 for in-floors but that's for another post.

calplaster-pebble guy was out, too, and he retested the water today. he said the marks r stains from dirt from not brushing enough as i did to show the pb that the in-floor wasn't working. :( and he said the white marks is scaling and he'd recommend an acid wash and that i empty my water when it gets up to 400, prob each year. he showed me how it comes off when he poured acid on it out of a bottle but recommended i didn't do it myself cuz i could ruin the pebble. The lead tech who came out to clean my filter recommended using a calcium filter when re-adding water to pool and said it needs to be between 150/200 and 400. pebble guy did his own numbers today and came up with:

pH 7.8
alkalinity= 120 (not TA which according to his math seems it'd be higher)
CH=450
chlorine higher than 5 as his kit only measures 5 so ofcourse he told me it's way too high.

as for pool math and this sites' recommendations, using the #s I gave last time, i think i'd be told to do is the following:

FC= need to add more CYA to between 60 and 80 be able to get an accurate number here, but with where I'm at, I'd estimate it'd want me to be at 3. This is hard, cuz i have it set higher because it lowers as the day goes on although the guy who recalibrated has it running all day, outside of the 3p-6pm time where electric is highest, now. I'd have to look at the salt cell and lower it a bit. (twinkiesmommy, you said 6. I'm just reporting how I'd read the poolmath calculator as proavia requested. it's a salt pool and the non-salt pools says min of 4. not sure if i need to ignore that chart completely. I imagine I would as it seems the sole recommendation would be to raise the CYA as 50 is not even on the chart). Not trusting my abilities to get accurate results is all... I'm thinking I need to empty some water anyway, so that'll get rid of a lot of it (see below for that).

pH- add 35 ounces acid if I'm trying to get to 7.2. This is the automatic number that is set in the pool math calc. but the pebble guy said it's too low for the cement in pebble. he said 7.4-7.8 is great. pls remark on this.

CC=0, so good.
calcium= if i'm right and it's 675 i need to replace 61% of my water. i'd want to put a calcium filter on it and i will be measuring the water that comes out of my tap on a couple separate occasions to see the starting point of hardness of water. i'll do this when it's cooler outside, though, to protect the pebble. do they have a filter that filters the water going into the pool from an automatic filler? that'd be good if they did. it just seems like such a waste of water in a drought.

TA= 140. pool math says "To lower TA you reduce pH to 7.0-7.2 with acid and then aerate to increase pH." So, i'd have to go back in and put my numbers in for pH again and go from there. I have to read about that more. i'm wondering how often i'd have to do that and am concerned cuz the guy who says he's one of the 2 licensed pebble experts in town who came out today said 7.2 can damage the cement that holds the pebble.

I think that's it. How close am I on my understanding? thx for all your help!
 
just tested the water out of the tap. took me 3 tries and i still wasn't sure between 11 or 12 drops. it's the first number where u're pretty sure it's blue, right? that second drop makes me really sure it's blue at that point. so, water from my tap is 250/275. high enough already that according to pool school, if when it says plaster it also means pebble, I wouldn't want to use a calcium filter unless i emptied just a certain amount of water from my pool. not sure if poolmath is taking into account an already high calcium level out of the tap.

retested my pool 3 times and the number i felt most confident about was 650 (200 more than the pebble guy a couple of hours earlier). If I empty only 61% of the water but to that portion am adding back in another 250/275 it seems I'd need a calcium filter or to empty the whole pool if i'm trying to stick with what pool school suggests (250-350).
 
just reread pool school as I'm taking notes for myself. I have salt pool, so ch needs to be 350-450. i'll have to read about scaling again, but i'm assuming my higher numbers were more accurate. from what i'm reading and my recollection, I wonder if the first year we tend to deal with a higher CH # due to being a new build, CH leaches out more.
 
Re-reading some of the pool school stuff and it's sinking in more and causing more questions. so, if my numbers are accurate it seems the first thing I should do is deal with CH first cuz it would mean emptying water out of the pool. Then deal with the TA, which is a bit confusing to me, lowering pH to 7.0/7.2 then raising it again to 7.6. It's not a quick process, pool school says, so, I don't understand the need to raise it, again. I'm confused. My kids jumping in the pool would cause some aeration. We also have a bubbler on the baja (in the corner of the 40 ft long pool). We also have in-floor heads. How quickly after lowering the pH should I be aerating to raise it, again? Maybe we're doing this naturally as I keep adding acid every other day and then we swim in it almost daily... (kids jump a lot)...

at the same time I would add in more stabilizer to try to get the numbers to 70.

also, reading under scaling about pitting. I think I have some pits, too. I don't understand how to figure out CSI so i will have to keep reading. It says "To prevent scaling, you should keep your CSI below 0.6 at all times. Pools with surfaces containing calcium also need to have their CSI above -0.6 at all times to prevent pitting."

thx!
 
The one important item you didn't report is what the CSI number is with your test results.

The reason I was asking for CSI is so you know what that number presently is. And what range you need to try keep it at. With high CH, keeping pH on the low side and adjusting TA to around 50-60 you can keep the CSI in range to help avoid scaling.

There are a few members here with CH above 1000 and high CH in their fill water. By closely monitoring pH and TA (along with normal testing/adjusting of other results) they have no scale.

Here's the deal with CH. As water evaporates from your pool, the CH stays behind. Then you add fill water with a given amount of CH in it. Now you wind up with the CH that was in your pool PLUS the amount added by the fill water. As you can see, the CH in the pool will continue to climb - as long as you don't drain/refill or have an RO treatment done. Once the CH get north of 1000 or so, it gets more difficult to maintain CSI in range - and at that point a drain/refill or RO treatment becomes necessary.

As a test only: Put you numbers into both the Now and Target columns of PoolMath - note the CSI. Then, in the Target column, adjust the numbers for pH and TA to lower numbers to see how the CSI is affected. As you can see, you can manage to keep CSI in range easily with pH and TA adjustments.

Of course CYA and salt levels also have a small effect on the CSI number - but CYA and salt (in a SWCG pool) remain fairly constant throughout the season. Salt level will increase slowly when adding chlorine through methods other than a SWCG.

With a high CH, it's important to keep the CSI slightly negative (zero or less).

And here is how to lower TA - Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity
____________________
As for your CYA numbers and your testing, one of our Mods :)kim:) recommended a slightly different method when looking to see if the dot was still there. She recommended to fill the vial to the first graduation (100) and GLANCE at the dot, then look away and glance again. If you still see it, fill the tube to the next graduation and repeat. Continue until you can't see the dot - then round up to the next higher number (if you can see dot at 50 but not at 40, use 50 for you CYA). Of course - test outside, full sun, back to sun, vial at waist level, hold top of vial with two fingers only. Use the same test solution and do the test 2-3 times to get a good feel for your reading.

I'd suggest you work on an accurate CYA test regime and getting your CSI in range for now (while keeping your other numbers in range). Once you master that, we can discuss the stains, infloor and whatever further. Trying to tackle it all at one time is virtually impossible and way too confusing.
 
Last edited:
proavia said:
The one important item you didn't report is what the CSI number is with your test results.

The reason I was asking for CSI is so you know what that number presently is. And what range you need to try keep it at. With high CH, keeping pH on the low side and adjusting TA to around 50-60 you can keep the CSI in range to help avoid scaling.

There are a few members here with CH above 1000 and high CH in their fill water. By closely monitoring pH and TA (along with normal testing/adjusting of other results) they have no scale.

Here's the deal with CH. As water evaporates from your pool, the CH stays behind. Then you add fill water with a given amount of CH in it. Now you wind up with the CH that was in your pool PLUS the amount added by the fill water. As you can see, the CH in the pool will continue to climb - as long as you don't drain/refill or have an RO treatment done. Once the CH get north of 1000 or so, it gets more difficult to maintain CSI in range - and at that point a drain/refill or RO treatment becomes necessary.

As a test only: Put you numbers into both the Now and Target columns of PoolMath - note the CSI. Then, in the Target column, adjust the numbers for pH and TA to lower numbers to see how the CSI is affected. As you can see, you can manage to keep CSI in range easily with pH and TA adjustments.

Of course CYA and salt levels also have a small effect on the CSI number - but CYA and salt (in a SWCG pool) remain fairly constant throughout the season. Salt level will increase slowly when adding chlorine through methods other than a SWCG.

With a high CH, it's important to keep the CSI slightly negative (zero or less).

And here is how to lower TA - Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity
____________________
As for your CYA numbers and your testing, one of our Mods :)kim:) recommended a slightly different method when looking to see if the dot was still there. She recommended to fill the vial to the first graduation (100) and GLANCE at the dot, then look away and glance again. If you still see it, fill the tube to the next graduation and repeat. Continue until you can't see the dot - then round up to the next higher number (if you can see dot at 50 but not at 40, use 50 for you CYA). Of course - test outside, full sun, back to sun, vial at waist level, hold top of vial with two fingers only. Use the same test solution and do the test 2-3 times to get a good feel for your reading.

I'd suggest you work on an accurate CYA test regime and getting your CSI in range for now (while keeping your other numbers in range). Once you master that, we can discuss the stains, infloor and whatever further. Trying to tackle it all at one time is virtually impossible and way too confusing.
Click to expand...

I got my pH down to 7.2 and I'm a bit nervous about that since the pebble tec guy told me that can damage the pebble. I just wanted to clarify this point here. so i have the bubbler on. Should I be leaving the bubbler on until it raises to 7.6 again? (all night plus longer?). I know it said it can take a while, but I'm not sure I'm grasping this 100%. also, if i were to empty 61% of my water, would i want to do this now? It's still a bit hot for the pebble (per some people) to empty pool now, which is another factor. i'll respond to the rest in a bit. I wanted to get this question out there for now in hopes it'll be seen tonight. thx!
 
Ph at 7.2 for a short while, days, will not hurt your pebble. I would raise PH to 7.8 or 8.0 and lower it again until you reach your TA target. You can wait until later to do a partial drain. Just keep your CSI between -0.3 and 0 in the meantime.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply