White ring on water tile

[Titan7]

I called NPT this morning and explained the situation to one the of the techs, he told me it's more than likely plaster dust, when I asked why the acid would not remove it we said there could have been a chemical reaction with my fill water that prevents acid from removing it. He told me he had the same issue and used a product call Scale be gone. He told me if it does not come off he can get me in touch with somebody from the National Pool Plastering Board who is located in SoCa. and they have dealt with this situation before. Well, I will give it a try and get some of this product.

I also spoke with the tile company, Ontario Pool Tile, i asked the owner about the my tile and if they have had any issues. He told me they have sold over 80,000 sf of this tile in the past year and work with at least 10 high volume builders and there have been zero issues. He said to let him know if there is a issue and can talk to the Mfg. i dont think its the tile.

I spoke with another NPT rep who said it still could still be metals and calcium?
I call the mfg of scale tech, s/w customer service tech, they said if acid does not touch it its not calcium and scaletec would not work but beautec might fix it.

Finally, i have a message into the National pool plastering board to see what they say.

Round and round i go, i actually may be the only person with this issue on earth, lol.
Anyone think scale be gone or beautec is worth a try or am i just wasting my time? Any experiances with either.

 

[Titan7]

Update, so I just got off the phone with Greg Garrett of the National Pool Plastering Board. He has seen the photos and saw what happened, he thinks it's Calcium Silicate. He said that the Azteca additive is "Micro Silica" and it could have reacted with the fill water in hot weather and plated the tile, even in two days. Actually, he is the guy with the Patent on Azteca, he know this stuff, I was referred to him by NPT. The weather was 91 on 7/25 the day the pebble plaster went in, 92 on 7/26 acid wash day and fill up, start up was the next day. PH was 7.8. He said i could have got the plating even without the modifier as there is silica in the plaster mix and with high temps, high ph, and no sequestrate its a perfect storm. Greg said to try Scaletec first he said its solved issues like this. If this doesnt work the next option would be Scale master, biodex300, last resort would be soda blasting.

He said any modifier added to the plaster will plate silicate when the PH is high. So, what would have most likely prevented this you ask? Wait for it... A sequestrate, yeah, the exact thing i asked my PB, plaster sub and start up guy about. so much for the advice of my pool builder, plaster sub and start up guys, what a joke. Folks according to this expert, sequestates are not just for well water. If you add a modifier to the plaster you should add a sequestrate. All of this could have been avoided.

Actually a sequestate is a smart idea at start up regardless of whether or not a modifier is used, calcium is a metal and there is a TON of calcium and silicate in the plaster dust, combined with the normal high PH from new plaster and other pool chemistry not being perfect at start up you can get plating in a day or two.

Greg also told me to keep a tighter range on CSI or LSI, he said -0.3 is too aggressive in the long term for plaster and heater exchangers. He recommended a range of 0.0 to -0.1, yep that's tight.

So to use Scale Tec I need to drop FC no higher than 3PPM, glad I did not put salt in yet.

Also, he told me to wait 60 days from start up until adding salt, he gave me a 30 minute education on plaster and water science that explained the reasons to wait 60 days before adding salt. Here again, the pool industry does a bit too much "shoot from the hip" or " this is the way we always have done it" Science generally provides a more optimum course to take.

So I guess I need keep FC at 3PPM, and raise the water level up and keep PH between 7.2 and 7.8 and, of course keep CSI in range. The water level is back up and above the flapper on my skimmer, we will see how this goes.

I have literally spent about 4 hours on the phone with people in addition to maybe 15-20 hours of research on-line in the past week trying to resolve this so I hope this works. i am putting the scale tec in either tonight or tomorrow for a couple weeks.

I hope this helps somebody else, but I really hope the time i have invested fixes my issue. I did not sign up for any of this, I just wanted to go swimming and add chemicals when needed. Greg did ask me what pool builder I worked for or what part of the industry I was in, when I told him I am just a homeowner with a new pool he told me he has never had most builders ask the questions I asked let alone a homeowner, okay, I am OCD. but i was heading in the right direction. I then asked how PB and people who do this for a living could make this mistake, he said alot of people in the industy dont understand how much science is really in this game. In the end he was very helpful and told me to let him know how the Scale Tec works out as he is the guy everyone calls for the troublesome issues and he loves it.

Well at least I know for my next pool how to do this correctly VS letting the pool builder's error take years off my life trying to solve a problem they created, lol.

Will check in later.

 

[oldguy70]

Update, so I just got off the phone with Greg Garrett of the National Pool Plastering Board. He has seen the photos and saw what happened, he thinks it's Calcium Silicate. He said that the Azteca additive is "Micro Silica" and it could have reacted with the fill water in hot weather and plated the tile, even in two days. The weather was 91 on 7/25 the day the pebble plaster went in, 92 on 7/26 acid wash day and fill up, start up was the next day. PH was 7.8. Greg said to try Scaletec first to see if this does anything, the next option would be Scalemaster, then biodex300, last resort would be soda blasting.

So to use Scale Tec I need to drop FC no higher than 3PPM, glad I did not put salt in yet. So I guess I need keep FC at 3PPM, and raise the water level up and keep PH between 7.2 and 7.8 and, of course keep CSI in range. I have literally spent about 3 hours on the phone with people trying to resolve this in addition to maybe 15 hours of research on-line, so I hope this works. I will raise the water level and try the scale tec for a couple weeks.

So will 3PPM of FC be safe?

I had the opportunity to spend a couple of hours with Greg Garrett back in March of this year. I had an issue with my pool, and the builder contacted Greg to look at the pool and get his expert opinion, his credentials speak for themselves....I will also add that Greg used Taylor reagents & standards for all his testing.

 

[JamesW]

Good information. Thanks for keeping us updated. Eager to hear the results.

 

[pooldv]

Yes, thanks for the update. Nice detective work!

 

[bdavis466]

I recall getting pretty detailed on the importance of adding a sequestrant during the plaster startup. The information on this site seems to relate it solely to metals in well water but that is far from the case. Calcium is a metal and new plaster produces tons of it

 

[JamesW]

The main thing that does not seem to make sense is why is the white only in a very thin line?

I would think that if it were a scaling issue, that the white would be everywhere.

 

[Titan7]

I recall getting pretty detailed on the importance of adding a sequestrant during the plaster startup. The information on this site seems to relate it solely to metals in well water but that is far from the case. Calcium is a metal and new plaster produces tons of it

I must have missed that. I did ask the plaster sub, start up and PB about it, was told since i have city water i dont need it. I guess shame on me for trusting people who do this for a living.

Just tested FC is @4ppm, so no scale tec until tomorrow.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The main thing that does not seem to make sense is why is the white only in a very thin line?

I would think that if it were a scaling issue, that the white would be everywhere.

I think this is fairly common. Chemistry at the meniscus/interface of the air/water/tile surface will be different than bulk. In my days in the semiconductor industry, metal plating rates were always enhanced at the solution interface with air. I suspect the pH is locally higher right at the tile line due to enhanced CO2 loss.

 

[Titan7]

Well the ScaleTec went into the water this morning, man that water level is high, just below my overfill, I mean like 1/16" below. I will go with this for the next three weeks. My TA is still @70, CYA @ 40, and PH is between 7.6-7.7, (I am keeping a tight range as this produces a CSI between 0 and -0.1. I sort of have to guess as the taylor PH test goes from 7.5 to 7.8. I am brushing the tile daily. I did speak to my PB, The owner after he received a copy of the service survey, (it was not a good one) actually I got a call from Corp. and the owner within 15 mins. of hitting "submit".

They will be sending a specialist out to fix the white ring, I told them we will wait 3 wks before doing anything, worst case is I will need to have this kierserite blasted off, the PB said they will pay for it. So some positive news. I am really trying to avoid the blasting as that "may" change the tile surface. So keep your fingers crossed Greg's suggestions work. I am hoping the combo of ScaleTec, a slightly Neg. CSI, and brushing will fix this.

Now, keeping my FC between 1-3PPM that's going to be a PAIN! I am waiting 60 days per Greg to add salt, Plus, Scale TEC requires you turn off the salt cell.

Is running FC at 2-3PPM with a CYA of 40 for 3 weeks going to create any issues?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Just so you know, kierserite is the blasting media that works best for calcium scale on pool tile. Few tile cleaning companies know how to use it. Soda blasting typically refers to sodium carbonate blasting which is meant to remove paint from aluminum. Soda ash is too soft for proper calcium removal. Tile cleaners for pools typically use glass bead media or garnet BUT that is way too hard compared to calcium scale and will typically scratch tile glaze if done improperly. Glass and garnet also needs to be vacuumed out of the pool with a separate filter vac or else the media can damage pumps and pool equipment.

Kierserite is magnesium sulfate which is perfectly matched in hardness to calcium scale (about a Mhos hardness of 3.5). It literally explodes on impact with the tile and fractures the calcium off the surface.

About 2-1/2 years ago I had a company clean scale off my tile using kierserite and it worked flawlessly. The tile literally looked brand new. I'll see if I can dig up some old photos.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Here they are -

BEFORE

AFTER

 

[Titan7]

Thanks, yes, the kierserite, is what I meant to say. Is your tile a matte textured glaze or glossy? Did they try to put a sealer on your tile and can you see any evidence of the blasting?

thanks, it looks good! I hope I don't have to go down that path, but if I do I hope it comes out like your tile did.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Thanks, yes, the kierserite, is what I meant to say. Is your tile a matte textured glaze or glossy? Did they try to put a sealer on your tile and can you see any evidence of the blasting?

thanks, it looks good! I hope I don't have to go down that path, but if I do I hope it comes out like your tile did.

My tile is a matte finish with no glossiness to it. It does have a metallic patina around the edges (golden colored). There were no scratches or evidence of blasting whatsoever. The only thing the guy did, which I did not appreciate, was that he wiped the tile down with a mineral oil spray on a rag to make the tile repel water a little. I did not like it because when I raised the water level back up, there was a little bit of a slick on the surface. Easy enough to clean up but I wish he had asked me first as I would have declined. He did not add any sealer and I was specifically told by many people NOT to use standard type tile sealants outdoors because they eventually just yellow the tile. Many tile cleaners will use a sealer after blasting to hide the scratches caused by glass bead blasting. This is one of the reasons why I paid extra for this company to drive down from Phoenix to do the service.

 

[Titan7]

My tile is a matte finish with no glossiness to it. It does have a metallic patina around the edges (golden colored). There were no scratches or evidence of blasting whatsoever. The only thing the guy did, which I did not appreciate, was that he wiped the tile down with a mineral oil spray on a rag to make the tile repel water a little. I did not like it because when I raised the water level back up, there was a little bit of a slick on the surface. Easy enough to clean up but I wish he had asked me first as I would have declined. He did not add any sealer and I was specifically told by many people NOT to use standard type tile sealants outdoors because they eventually just yellow the tile. Many tile cleaners will use a sealer after blasting to hide the scratches caused by glass bead blasting. This is one of the reasons why I paid extra for this company to drive down from Phoenix to do the service.

Sounds like we have very similar tile, like almost the exact tile. You are also onto the "sealer" issue, agree most are putting it on to cover up hazing from glass bead blasting which I agree is the wrong media for tile. Glad to hear there was no side effects of the kierserite blasting. I hope that will not be needed, but I am really glad to hear the results!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I hope the ScaleTec works for you.

 

[bdavis466]

Here they are -

BEFORE

AFTER

My poor little heart crumbed into pieces Matt. I'm taking down the picture of you that I had stapled to the ceiling over my bed. I'll be replacing it with a collage of photos of Danny's feet.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

My poor little heart crumbed into pieces Matt. I'm taking down the picture of you that I had stapled to the ceiling over my bed. I'll be replacing it with a collage of photos of Danny's feet.

I feel dirty now...

 

[kadavis]

Looks like you have several hairline cracks under the tile, can see the efforesence coming out

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Looks like you have several hairline cracks under the tile, can see the efforesence coming out

Oddly enough, that's not what it is. Poor image resolution + weird color rendering/reflection off the metal patina edges of the tile. If you look in those areas today (2 years out), the grout is perfectly sealed against the tile and there's no white/crusty efflorescence at all.

Now I do have some efflorescence at the mortar joint between the flagstone and the top of the tile....