Heat Pump vs NG heater - Southern Ontario

[Brick81]

First time poster here, anyway wondering if anyone could give me some feedback on the following.

We are getting a pool 14x30 and live in Southern Ontario area. Everything is fine but there are two things we are having trouble deciding.

1) Single speed vs Variable speed pump: All I’ve read on the internet is Variable speed all the way, however some people have also told me you really only need that if there are lots of leaves/trees and or water features in the pool which we have none.

2) NG gas heater vs Heat Pump: I was all pro heat pump mainly because I figured our situation would be ideal for it. Wife is a teacher so has the summer off and pool will be used extensively between her and our kids. The more popular option is the NG gas heater but other people tell me that’s more of a weekend only thing. The electricity rates here are the only thing that’s putting me off on the heat pump. I think we would plan to keep the water at around 84 Deg. & Guessing our swimming time would be around 4 months with the majority being in June, July, August..

Electricity rates: On-Peak 18 cents per kWH, Mid-Peak 13.2 cents per kWH, Off-peak 8.7 cents per kWH
Gas Rates: 9.57 cents/m3 (having a heck of a time trying to convert this)


Anyone have any feed back???

Please and thanks in advance,

 

[wayner]

I am in Toronto and use NatGas and evacuated tube solar to heat the pool. We uncover our pool in mid-May and cover it up in early Oct but we won't use the NatGas heater in the shoulder seasons unless the weather is warm and we expect to be in the pool. Even if the pool isn't being used it looks a lot better when the pool is uncovered.

The solar heating isn't enough on its own (at least not usually - this summer is a bit of an exception) to keep the pool in the mid 80s but it does give you several degrees per day when it is sunny and will keep the gas bill down. I set my NatGas heater at 81 in the summer and with the solar the pool will generally get up to 84 on sunny afternoons - last week it got up to 87 given the heat wave. The downside is that it requires you to run your pool when the sun is shining, which is when you pay more for electricity.

One thing to keep in mind is that the electricity rates that you quote exclude surcharges (distribution, transmission, etc) which add about $.05/kWh regardless of the time of day. There are also some surcharges on your gas bill for distribution. But heat pumps don't use a ton of electricity as they don't use a heating element to heat the water.

I don't know what you mean by NatGas being a weekend thing. Putting in a pool is a big capital investment, including landscaping it can cost well over $100k. To me it doesn't make sense to try to save a few hundred $ per year by not heating your pool to a comfortable temperature as then the pool won't be used as much.

I have no idea how well heat pumps work for pools in our climate.

 

[gailn]

Not an expert by any means, but we are in southern Ontario, so some thoughts. As far as heating, that's pretty easy. With our short swimming season, and variable temperatures, and considering cost to operate a properly sized gas heater is going to be your best option. The gas heater will heat much faster, and doesn't really use a lot of gas. We can raise the temp a few degrees in a couple of hours. A heat pump will take a lot longer, and takes longer yet and is less efficient as the weather gets colder. Electricity is your highest cost in running a pool here. As far as a pump, when we replaced our pump a couple of years ago, variable speed pumps were harder to find a way more expensive, so we opted for a 2 speed pump and run it most of the time on low. Uses little hydro and is very quiet. Only use high speed for vacuuming and adding chemicals and heating, or to skim a bit more dog hair in off peak times. You don't need to run the pump all the time. Just experiment with the optimal time to run and still keep the water clear. We tend to run ours most of the time as we have a golden retriever who would swim all day if we let him. That being said, I will probably see if I can get away with less pump time. 2 years ago, without the dog issue, we were running the pump on low just overnight and sometimes a couple of hours during the day. Our electricity bill dropped a lot from the previous year running the old one speed pump about the same amount of time. If we were to do it now, a variable speed would probably be the choice if the price difference is reasonable, as low speed is to low for the heater and with the variable speed, you could experiment to see the lowest speed that would still run the heater, and still save on operating costs.

 

[gailn]

As another point, again with our climate and cooler nights, a solar blanket is a big help, especially if the nights are a bit cooler. To save a bit more, if the night's going to cool off, I make sure to cover it at night and then run the heater for a bit, in off peak hydro hours (for the higher speed of the pump) to raise the temp a degree or 2. It will pretty much hold as long as covered. If I don't do that when the nights are cool, we lose a couple of degrees overnight and you're looking at having to maybe bring the temperature up during peak rates. Even with the heat this summer, we've had a few nights in the 12 to 16 degree nights, and those can drop the pool temp pretty quickly.

 

[gailn]

As another point, again with our climate and cooler nights, a solar blanket is a big help, especially if the nights are a bit cooler. To save a bit more, if the night's going to cool off, I make sure to cover it at night and then run the heater for a bit, in off peak hydro hours (for the higher speed of the pump) to raise the temp a degree or 2. It will pretty much hold as long as covered. If I don't do that when the nights are cool, we lose a couple of degrees overnight and you're looking at having to maybe bring the temperature up during peak rates. Even with the heat this summer, we've had a few nights in the 12 to 16 degree nights, and those can drop the pool temp pretty quickly.

 

[Brick81]

Awesome, thanks for all the quick replies.

Essentially what I was told was the gas heating is best when you don’t use the pool during the weekdays much but mainly on the weekends. Since it heats pool up that much quick (ie turn on Friday, swim for the weekend then back off on Monday). While the heat pump was more a set it and forget it. Seeing as wife and kids are off on the summer and would being using it during the week, that’s why I was looking in that direction…
Company says the install about 1-5 heat pumps a year vs tons of gas heaters…

Anyway, thanks again for all the quick replies. I’m sure I’ll be visiting more often once we get our pool.

 

[wayner]

If you are going to go with a solar cover then it helps to have a rectangular shaped pool, and make sure you have room for the reel in your design.

 

[gailn]

One thing to keep in mind, one way or another. It's overkill to run your pump 24/7. It costs, and isn't needed. At the same time, you can't run your heater when the pump's not running, so, say you opt for a heat pump which is way slower, then either you have to add in the added cost to run the pump a lot more, or possibly find that you never manage to get up to temp with decreased pump run time. Your cost to run the pump will always be there, no matter the run time you decide on, whereas your heater run time will vary a lot. We've rarely run the heater this summer and only to bring it up a degree or 2 (takes about an hour or less) and have been able to keep the pump on low most of the time and that's a big hydro savings, plus little spent on gas. Other summers, the mileage will vary. Heat pumps for pools seem to be better suited for warmer climates, where they can benefit from an extended swimming season. We had a vacation home in S. Carolina a few years back, and there were a lot more pool heat pumps there where the spring and fall could benefit from some pool heating, so you could use the pool longer.

 

[Catanzaro]

We are getting a pool 14x30 and live in Southern Ontario area. Everything is fine but there are two things we are having trouble deciding.

1) Single speed vs Variable speed pump: 2) NG gas heater vs Heat Pump:

Electricity rates: On-Peak 18 cents per kWH, Mid-Peak 13.2 cents per kWH, Off-peak 8.7 cents per kWH
Gas Rates: 9.57 cents/m3 (having a heck of a time trying to convert this)

Anyone have any feed back??? Please and thanks in advance,

Regarding the pump, a variable speed is more economical from what I have heard. I have a standard 2HP Hayward pump. Regarding the heater, most people will get a NG heater because it will heat the water pretty quickly. If the pool is used that much, maybe a heat pump would be fine. You kind of have to weigh out your options. Most people here in NJ have NG heaters.

Personally, I decided against a heater for many reasons, with the main one being that the pool is not used every day, in addition to the $5,000 up front cost and about $500 per month to heat the pool.

If you install a heater, it is highly recommend recommended that you purchase a solar cover as well to retain and isolate the heat during the evenings. It really all depends how many times you will be placing and removing the cover in the pool. Please note that you will have your PH possibly drop with a cover so keep an eye on the levels. I do not know if your pool is free form, concrete, liner, shape, etc. Depending on the shape, you may want to purchase a reel (makes life easier). I personally went to Lowes and purchased 1" schedule 40 10' PVC. I attached 2 of them (20' long) and we roll the cover off with the children. It takes a few minutes, but for $100, I decided this would be better for now.

Please add your signature so we can help you in the future. Welcome to TFP!

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

I would go with a two speed pump motor.

 

[Brick81]

This place is great!!!!

Leaning towards the NG unit now, forgot / didn't realize pump needed to be running while you heat. Makes sense though.

Came across a heat recovery pool heating system (uses excess heat from your A/C), which as a concept sounds great but think I may just be over complicating things at this point...

Now to sift through this site to see what else I can learn, Thanks again!!!!!!

 

[wayner]

Came across a heat recovery pool heating system (uses excess heat from your A/C), which as a concept sounds great but think I may just be over complicating things at this point...

Theoretically those system make a TON of sense as you spend money in the summer trying to take heat out of your house and if you have a pool you also pay to put heat into your pool - why not move the heat from your house to your pool to lower AC costs and pool heating costs. It helps if your pool equipment is near your AC as you have to run your pool water through a heat exchanger attached to your AC.

 

[WardL]

I went with a heat pump because I did not have NG and propane costs are about 3x NG. I do have propane. I installed solar panels to generate electricity. My heat pump will heat my spa nicely to 102 during the summer ("summer" here is February through mid November) when ambient temps are above 65F (18C) in about 2 hours. If the ambient temps get much below 65 F, it starts to take too much time to heat the spa. In the winter I heat the spa with the heat pump and the propane heater. The heat pump is just too small to heat the pool much. We tried it a couple of times, but it couldn't even keep up with the heat losses at night. I think my pool is closer to about 15,000 gallons or 57,000 L. I will add solar hot water next year when I recover financially from my pool investment....

 

[Catanzaro]

The heat pump is just too small to heat the pool much.

As Ward states, that is what most people's experience has been with a heat pump, especially on the east coast. They should create heat pumps with solar panels, so the units can be on all day, saving electricity. Heat pumps do work, but from what I have been told, they need to be on all the time, sometimes costing more than natural gas (in certain areas).

 

[wayner]

As Ward states, that is what most people's experience has been with a heat pump, especially on the east coast. They should create heat pumps with solar panels, so the units can be on all day, saving electricity. Heat pumps do work, but from what I have been told, they need to be on all the time, sometimes costing more than natural gas (in certain areas).

Or the heat pumps that hook up to your AC coils should be more common.

 

[Brick81]

Incase anyone comes back to this, found this calculator online (which I take with a grain of salt). Least I don't have to do those conversions on gas....

Calculation of heating costs for a pool – Online calculation tool – Compare costs for pool heating

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

Or the heat pumps that hook up to your AC coils should be more common.

It makes perfect sense and if you're building new spend the money to get the exchanger that takes the house AC heat and sticks it in the pool as you aren't paying for the heat, only a few bucks to pump the water. That's because you'd likely be pumping more hours per day than you'd need for filtering or a SWCG. But it's really cheap heat for the pool.

If I was going to install central air I'd really be looking at the different options to do something like this: Heat Recovery Pool Heater | Compare To Solar Pool Heater | HotSpot Energy LLC
If you were paying to use LP to heat your pool I'd think this could really save you some money. The one thing to think about is that early and late in the season when you need the most heat it's cooler outside and you aren't running your AC as much so you'd likely still need something else to supplement the recovery system. Would like to have some "real world" data from users.