South Florida Pool & Outdoor Living - STARTUP PHASE

[grumpiebk]

so going back to my list, I think we've covered everything except the spa jets. I am curious to hear owners' opinions. Does the standard 6 jet setup do the job? I was at my community pool spa last night and didnt use more than 1 or 2 jets for myself. I cant imagine more than 3 or 4 people in a 7' round spa at a time. I do think I will add a blower though.

[twinkiesmommy2009]

Sorry! I thought I answered this one. We have 8 in an 8' spa and it's not enough. If I could do it again I would have done one or two of the tri-seats adding 2-4 jets. Learned about it here but can't remember who right now. Think two eyes and a nose for more targeted areas on the back at once in at least one or two seating spots.

My basic understanding is that you should do a minimum of 1 jet per foot of spa size to really have enough coverage. So 6' spa would be 6-8 jets, 7' spa is 7-9 jets, 8'... You get the idea.

[txnole]

To answer the specific question, no ... I don't have screenlogic. We're in Florida and it takes 20 minutes to heat the spa in the winter; less time in the summer. I can barely change clothes and pour wine in that time.

Regarding spa, ours is 7' x 5' and we have 6 jets, but the addition of the blower is the key. I think you can see what a difference that is from my pics. I'm not a fan of having one jet every 12" because that's not how the seating arrangements end up. (To test this, put your dining chairs in a 7x7 box and figure out how comfortable you are sitting next to your father-in-law in your boxers. Or worse, your much younger neighbor's wife!! )

[grumpiebk]

To test this, put your dining chairs in a 7x7 box and figure out how comfortable you are sitting next to your father-in-law in your boxers. Or worse, your much younger neighbor's wife!! )

LOL. That's some visual, in both scenarios. How may adults do you fit in yours comfortably? We are also going with a round spa which may offer a little more room?

[txnole]

LOL. That's some visual, in both scenarios. How may adults do you fit in yours comfortably? We are also going with a round spa which may offer a little more room?

Square spa w seating on three sides only... about six adults. If we had seating on four sides we could probably go 7-8.

[grumpiebk]

Thanks. That's plenty big for our needs.

[grumpiebk]

After following so many recent build projects, I am thinking maybe my heater is too small (Hayward 5hp 140k btu)? We will likely only ever heat the entire pool for 2 months out of the year but we will use the spa frequently (approx 1-2 times per week). Any thoughts on if I should upgrade before our build?

[txnole]

Sorry. I don't have any familiarity with the heat pumps. Always used the gas heater for quick bumps on the spa.

[mgmoore7]

I found my first proposal from back at the end of April! Man our project has surely increased in scope since then! Here is what was listed as an option for automation:

"Automation – Pool/spa automatic controls including an outdoor control panel & hand held “waterproof”
wireless remote with digital read-out (includes credit for “Color Logic Light Switch) $ 1,500.00"

From everything I am hearing, it sure seems worth it now. Our builder has really been brand indifferent and said that I can choose my preferred brand for the same price. So this price is probably for the EasyTouch 4 and will be an add-on for any upgrade.

A couple of questions on automation:
1 - I am guessing the ScreenLogic would be an add-on on top of the EasyTouch?
2 - Can ScreenLogic be used from multiple devices (i.e. my phone and my wifes phone, computer, ipad, etc)?
3 - Would I still need the in-home wall switch? PB quoted the automation in exchange for the switch. If I keep both, automation is $1800 and not $1500.

Have not read all the way through but I agree with the others. Get the automation and get the ScreenLogic too (it is a add on)

[grumpiebk]

So i met with my PB today to address my growing list of pre-dig questions. Most were addressed easily, but here were some questions and the answers I received which I wanted to bring back to TFP for further discussion:

Blower for Spa - my PB recommended against it. They said it will be loud and would likely need some sort of plumbing above ground (eye sore) closer to the spa due to the long line from the pad to the spa (~60 feet). Does this make sense?

Deck Drain - I asked about my options to add square deck drains (if needed) scattered throughout our french pattern travertine (i saw this in a thread somewhere here and it looked so much cleaner) vs. the long linear deck-o-drains. Again, they recommended against it due to tropical rain season here in South Florida. They believe the isolated square drains will be much more prone to overflow during heavy rains.

Acid Wash of Diamond Brite - My contact (sales/designer still at this point) didnt seem to know the answer on whether or not a Diamond Brite quartz plaster selection would be acid-washed prior to filling. He said no, but I could tell he was not confident in his answer.

Surge Protector at Pump on Pad - PB said this is not currently included in their builds. Why is this important? Should I pay extra for it?

Hayward heat pump with Pentair automation and other Pentair Equipment - We chose all Pentair equipment except for the heat pump (Pentair only makes a 125K BTU heat pump vs. Haywards 140K and Hayward has better reviews) and are adding the automation system. PB didnt seemed concerned with Hayward heat pump on Pentair automation.

Any thoughts on these topics or cause for concern?

[bdavis466]

No blower is needed for a properly built spa plumbing system.

Listen to Jim on the automation... EasyTouch 8 with Screenlogic 2. It's worth every penny.

A heat pump is a significant expense. Unless you are planning to maintain your pool at a desired temperature, you'd be better off with a natural gas heater. Look into the Raypak heaters. I've been really impressed with their build quality and simplicity... They also get the best reviews around here. There is no issue going with Pentair automation and a different brand heater.

Double whatever lighting you have planned. You can't have enough and there is nothing worse than being disappointed at the end of the project.

If you go with more than 6-7 jets in the spa, you'll likely need a second pump for enough jet action.

[grumpiebk]

A heat pump is a significant expense. Unless you are planning to maintain your pool at a desired temperature, you'd be better off with a natural gas heater. Look into the Raypak heaters. I've been really impressed with their build quality and simplicity... They also get the best reviews around here. There is no issue going with Pentair automation and a different brand heater.

Thanks, Brian. Unfortunately we dont have gas, and as I understand it, the run cost of gas heater vs. heat pump is more making the upfront cost of the electric heat pump even over time. Thoughts?

[bdavis466]

My thoughts are skewed because I'm on the other end of the country. Here electric rates are through the roof and gas is dirt cheap. I can heat my pool several times a month for the cost to run a heat pump for one day.

Do people in your area heat their spas with heat pumps? If they do, it must take forever to get to temp and not be possible during the cooler months (heat pumps don't work much below 50-60 degrees ambient).

Heat pumps favor warm humid air and I'd imagine you have that going for you.

Truthfully I'm so out of touch with your climate my thoughts probably shouldn't be considered. The one thing I do know is the Raypak heaters are superior to just about anything else.

Look up a member PS303. He's expert in your area and could probably fill volumes with his experiences and knowledge. I believe he's a service tech for many of the big equipment manufacturers.

[txnole]

So i met with my PB today to address my growing list of pre-dig questions. Most were addressed easily, but here were some questions and the answers I received which I wanted to bring back to TFP for further discussion:

Blower for Spa - my PB recommended against it. They said it will be loud and would likely need some sort of plumbing above ground (eye sore) closer to the spa due to the long line from the pad to the spa (~60 feet). Does this make sense?

Deck Drain - I asked about my options to add square deck drains (if needed) scattered throughout our french pattern travertine (i saw this in a thread somewhere here and it looked so much cleaner) vs. the long linear deck-o-drains. Again, they recommended against it due to tropical rain season here in South Florida. They believe the isolated square drains will be much more prone to overflow during heavy rains.

Acid Wash of Diamond Brite - My contact (sales/designer still at this point) didnt seem to know the answer on whether or not a Diamond Brite quartz plaster selection would be acid-washed prior to filling. He said no, but I could tell he was not confident in his answer.

Surge Protector at Pump on Pad - PB said this is not currently included in their builds. Why is this important? Should I pay extra for it?

Hayward heat pump with Pentair automation and other Pentair Equipment - We chose all Pentair equipment except for the heat pump (Pentair only makes a 125K BTU heat pump vs. Haywards 140K and Hayward has better reviews) and are adding the automation system. PB didnt seemed concerned with Hayward heat pump on Pentair automation.

Any thoughts on these topics or cause for concern?

I believe the blower was my doing, so I'll jump in. Our blower is a 1hp with a silencer located at the pad. The pic is below. Certainly looks like pool equip, but not an eyesore. With the silencer it runs at 55db. My HVAC runs at 77, so certainly quieter than your home HVAC. I would definitely go with the blower - much cheaper than a second pump, as someone else suggested for your spa size. I can pm you a video if you like.

For deck drain, I tend to agree with your PB. A channel drain is probably the way to go for our rain volumes. Get one that closely matches your travertine. Ours is walnut drain / walnut travertine.

Acid wash ... They are absolutely going to to need to acid wash. Your guy may not know the whole process but just get it confirmed what the curing process is before water.

Surge ... I would vote 100% yes given our location and the sensitivity of the pentair equipment. Your local electricians will agree wholeheartedly. Net cost is probably $300 or less vs. cost of new pump or panel.

I wouldn't have any concerns about the Hayword with Pentair automation; however, the spa will be very slow to heat with heat pump. Your heat pump will be nice for the pool but not so great for the spa. I would ask around but I suspect the ramp time to 98 degrees is 60 minutes or more in your zone. I would suggest propane, even if it means burying a tank. In S. FL your propane cost is going to be $2.50-$2.85/g so a 125g tank would cost you $250 to fill to 80% capacity. Flow rate on the Pentair heater is pretty efficient and we find ourselves just topping off the propane a few times a year at $40-80/per quarter. I have solar, so I'm not trying to heat my pool.


In the pic, the blower is the black cylinder, roughly adjacent to the panel, above the heater.

image.jpg


image.jpg

[grumpiebk]

7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

Jim, we have decided to go with the Pentair EasyTouch automation. The one thing I am still unclear of is if I need the 4 or 8. When you say relays, are the 3 or 4 relays on the ET4 in addition to the traditional pool controls (SWCG, Heater, Pump, Lights, etc)? How many would I need in the following setup?

Currently Included in build:
- Intelliflow VS Pump
- Intelichlor IC60 SWG
- 4 LED lights (2 in pool, 1 on shelf, 1 in spa)
- 3 bubblers on sun shelf
- Hayward 140K BTU Heat Pump
- Spa spillover valve
- 6 spa jets

Future additions:
- 2 separate controls for landscape lights
- Covered patio light switch (maybe?)
- Covered patio fan switch (maybe?)

[Jimrahbe]

Intelliflow VS Pump -Control built in, no relay

Intelichlor IC60 SWG - The SWCG will use the pump/filter relay

4 LED lights (2 in pool, 1 on shelf, 1 in spa) You will need one relay for each light that you independently what on. So, one relay can control all the lights, or 4 relays for four individual lights. etc.

3 bubblers on sun shelf I have to assume you will be using a valve to do this. This would use one of the two user programmable valve controllers.

Hayward 140K BTU Heat Pump - I think you can control this heater without a relay, but I would hold one in reserve to make sure.

Spa spillover valve - This is controlled by the two dedicated "Intake and Return" valve controllers.

6 spa jets - I don't have a Spa and "assume" this come on automatically. If you are talking about the blower.. then that will take a relay.

Future additions:

2 separate controls for landscape lights - Two relays, one for each circuit

Covered patio light switch (maybe?) - One relay

Covered patio fan switch (maybe?) - One relay

I have the EasyTouch 4, without a Spa, and I wish I had the ET8.. I have "hacked" a 5th relay in my system to drive a pool fill valve.

I believe that the best value is to buy an ET8, with included IC60, and valves actuators

Jim R.

[grumpiebk]

Thanks. Can you clarify what I could actually run from the ET4? I'm still not clear on what it can power at full utilization. And then from there I'll better understand what else I get going to an ET8.

[grumpiebk]

Oops sorry. I now see where you responded in line in the quote. Thanks!

[Jimrahbe]

Oops sorry. I now see where you responded in line in the quote. Thanks!

I didn't like the way it looked either, but by the time my hunt-and-peck fingers had modified it, you'd already read the original one.

Jim R.

[twinkiesmommy2009]

You will definitely need the ET8 to get full automation. We have similar equipment. Just your lights will be 3 relays used.