new member and Pool from Southeast Louisiana

[Bananimal]

Hi all,

Well, after five grueling months of a build, the pool was finally completed about three weeks ago. Had issues in getting the builder to do what we wanted related to an issue he created in the middle of the build which resulted in the PB threatening me with a letter from his attorney and delaying the build a full month. Long story short on that, I wound up using his own attorney against him. We then were able to come to an agreement we were both comfortable with. Enough of that.

Pool is 34 x 18 (including tanning ledge and spa/table area) and uses all Pentair equipment. Unfortunately, and much to my horror, the builder convinced us to go with the Nature2 system with the TriChlor 3" inline chlorinator. After reading this forum and many others, it seems this was a mistake. I'm currently looking at removing both and going with a Pentair IC40 SWCG. Mainly because I'm getting old and stooping around the pool to pour in bleach every other night is going to get old really fast! Otherwise, I'm abandoning the pool store and will be managing the pool with bleach to shock when needed, borax, baking soda, muriatic acid and the occasional dose of CYA.

What I found in the first three weeks using the system that was installed and keeping FC at 0.5ppm - 1.0ppm is that when there was a bather load of more than three people, the pool would cloud the next day and a shock was in order. The pool is beautiful to look at without a bather load, but what good is that? We bought the pool to swim in and to look at, not just look at. So much for "saving money on chlorine" as the pool builder sold me on.

Also, I need to get away from using Calcium-Hyperchlorite to shock as my CH is running steady at 500ppm. There's a high calcium level in the tap water here. Between the copper being added to the water with the Nature2, the high calcium readings, and the TriChlor adding unwanted levels of CYA and driving my pH into the dirt, I can see where this configuration is taking me. Thank goodness I found this site. Today my pH dropped from 7.4 to 6.7 when I tested. Been fighting to get it back up with soda ash. TA was in the dirt too and off the scale. I will be moving away from the vicious pool store circle of chemicals to the BBB method or as I hope sooner than later, a SWCG and BB combo. This system, from what little experience I have with it thus far, is all I want to see of that horror show.

Some quick specs on the pool for those that are interested:

As mentioned, all Pentair.

• Pentair 1.5hp Whisperflow single speed pump.
• Century Centurion 3/4 HP pressure side pool cleaner booster pump.
• Pentair 420 cartridge filter.
• Pentair inline Rainbow chlorinator.
• Zodiac Nature2 Mineral Sanitizer.
• Pentair LED intellilight x 2. (Pool is absolutely gorgeous at night. It looks like blue Tesla coils running through the water. Absolutely stunning.)
• In pool spa with bubble jets and table (Didn't see a need for and never liked spas that were separate from the pool. Most of the time, they go unused and we had no plans to heat. So in the pool it went. Keeps the dogs from taking off with the kids food during lunches or snacking.)
• Sprinkler system (Works great to cool the water and were installed for that reason. As a side, it is also tremendously useful for keeping mosquitos and horse flies at bay. Something we didn't think about, but found out rather quickly about once the pool was opened.)
• Honed and polished travertine coping.
• 700 sqft. Tumbled travertine paver deck (These things are slick when dry. That's to say, when you get out of the pool soaking wet and step on a dry paver, watch out. Once they are wet, it isn't so bad.)
• Dual bubblers in the tanning ledge.
• Custom mosaic glass waterline and ledge tiling.
• Three umbrella post holes - one in table, one in far ledge and one in tanning ledge.
• Pool fill water line was installed into the decking for easy filling of the pool.

Overall, we are relatively pleased with how the pool came out despite the builder being a jerk halfway through the build. it could have been a lot worse I suppose. He left the yard unlevel and we now have to have a landscaper come in to fix things to correct the grading of my yard. After that, we should be good to go. We hope to add an outdoor kitchen and some brick paths later. Right now, it's mud, weeds, grass and a pool.

This builder has an A+ rating on Angie's List and has been in business since 1976. We figured we'd pay a little extra to not have problems. Well, there were many. The biggest one was the owner's attitude. It was and always has been "his way or the highway." Overall, I think we escaped relatively unscathed though.

Things we are happy with:

• Pool shell is 12" thick and perfectly level.
• Gravel across the entire pool bottom. Not just the deep end.
• 5 returns (Most are ledge sweeps)
• 2 skimmers
• Super smooth plaster
• Table top design came out great
• Deck looks great

Things we are not happy with:

• The biggest issue was the table. It was lopsided when initially poured. Both the tabletop and the umbrella post pipe were lopsided. Builder forced us to accept adding quickset around the rim of the table to make it round although it still is not centered on the pedestal. We were not convinced of the structural integrity of this fix and wanted him to cut the tabletop off and repour it. He refused. This was the catalyst for the nasty letter from his attorney.
• The plaster has dark mix in it in some spots. They didn't mix it thoroughly enough apparently. This is in the first couple of wheelbarrows they applied. It looks like black dirt the size of a dime in some spots. Nothing they can do to fix it.
• I already spoke to the inline chlorinator and the Nature2 system. Junk! That mistake at the PB's recommendation is going to cost me another 1k.
• Travertine tile is much more slippery than they told us it would be. In fact, they swore it was less slippery than CoolDeck. We were adamant about not slipping. We have kids and the neighbors kids using the pool. We're still quite concerned with this. Not sure what to do or what we can do about it. I twisted my knee on it two weeks ago and almost went to surgery. Still waiting to see if the tears in my knee will heal up enough not to warrant surgery.
• The polymeric sand they claimed would harden in between the tiles crumbles and finds its way out of the deck and eventually into the pool. This has left some larger gaps in the deck than we would have liked. If I had it to do over again, I would have had them mortar them in place.
• The bubbles didn't work in the spa. The fix was to reroute the booster pump intake to the return side of the system to force more water through the spa pipes. This works great unless we throw the valve for the spa to turn on the spa jets. If the booster pump comes on in that mode, it will burn up. Gotta take care to make sure that doesn't happen.
• The pool overflow is cut too short and the pool fills to the bottom of the coping tiles and over the skimmer inlets during heavy rains. Should be an easy fix.
• Builder left the site a mess. He brought in sand and destroyed the grade of my yard. I have to pay more to get that corrected and then my yard can be on the road to recovery. It was heart breaking watching them destroy my newly sodded yard. Even more so for them to leave it to us to clean up.
• Rocks, stones and rebar left everywhere in my yard. Hit some rebar while cutting the grass and destroyed the starter on my brand new lawn mower. I assume that is why it stopped working only after two uses. Next time I went to use it, no starter.
• The plasterers got plaster in my waterline tile grout. The effect is that the tiles now look like they have been there for years and have calcium in the grout in some spots. It even hazed the glass tile themselves in many places. I was peeved about that. They refuse to address it properly. Like so many other issues. Not sure how to address that problem. My wife and I got in with green scrubbers and did our best to get the haze off, but the results were not great. I can tell you, I was thinking about the money we spent on the pool with every swipe of the green pad. I suppose this is what online rating websites are for.
• The tiles on the top of the far skimmer intake are only supported by 33% cement on the back. They are coming to address that next week after my having to hound them on it.
• The tiles in the ledging are not smoothly curved to follow the edge of the ledges and steps as I would like. We specifically wanted them squared off on the ends and they smoothed them over on the ends unsymetrically too. Could have been done much better. I could have probably done it better.

The total cost for the pool was $63,400. It is nice, but for that kind of money, we would have preferred a more professional response to our concerns instead of having to hound them to death and having to live with the careless, stupid mistakes of their so-called expert subs. They hate me now because I refused to relent and was on them like white on rice until I got what I paid for or atleast was given the opportunity to vent my discoveries of their negligence time and time again. What can I say? My father taught me to never quit and I taught myself to pay extreme attention to the details. I'll never understand why people/companies behave that way.

Here are a few pictures. It does look nice for a medium sized free-form pool. People love the table. Nothing like having a place to set a can of beer and a hot dog while in the pool and watching the kids swim.

 

[needsajet]

Welcome to TFP! Good to have you here

That's quite the story and it's good to hear that you've been able to identify a few concerns from the great articles and threads here at TFP. I hope you have a recommended test kit in hand or on the way. The most recommended is TFTestkits.net

I really like the first page of this thread as an introduction to TPFC: TFPC for Beginners

Pool looks beautiful!

I hope there's a good way to roughen the honed/polished travertine. I've seen that in many houses here, and I can see that it would be alarming around a pool. There's some pretty amazing experts here, so hopefully someone has some ideas for you.

With respect to the Nature2..., is that a Nature2 Express (i.e. just the copper)? Usually we hear about the Nature2 Fusion which has both the copper and a chlorine source. Glad you understand the copper risks and have already accepted the need to disable it.

You're certainly not alone in terms of pool building adventures/misadventures! The pool builders have their games and some people here get great outcomes and some don't. I'm one who got to TFP too late and could have had better outcomes as well, if I'd found TFP sooner. Thanks for sharing your story which is very helpful for people who are going to build.

 

[Bananimal]

Thanks for the welcome. The Nature2 system is a standalone copper/silver mineral pack. The PB tells me I can just take the cartridge out if I want to stop using it. We'll see about that. I plan on looking into that today. I had to SLAM my pool (or as best I could with the guess strips they provided me with the pool) yesterday. I have a Taylor 2006C kit in route. Can't wait until it gets here as I feel like I'm watching a raging fire with a garden hose in my hand by using the test strips. More times than not, the pH reading on the strips doesn't match any of the colors and results in having to administer another test to get a good reading. The strips have proven to be very unreliable in that regard. We're also stocking up on baking soda, borax and bleach to switch over the TFPC/BBB. Should have everything we need by the next few days. Once that happens, this current sanitization system is offline forever.

The bottom line with this setup is this:

• The Pentair Rainbow inline chlorinator is a poor choice for several reasons. On it's own, I don't think it would be capable of maintaining sanitizing levels for this pool even on the highest setting of 5. In fact, I know it can't because I tried it. That is why I had to SLAM the pool yesterday. I'd been running it on a setting of 3.5 out of a max setting of 5, yet the chlorine levels kept dropping below 0.1. Being a total noob to the pool scene, my thinking was, if I turn it to 5, I'll probably have to turn it back down a bit once the chlorine levels skyrocket. I was in the process of learning the capabilities of the unit when after just about one month of ownership, the pool water threw me the first curveball. The reason I turned it to 5 was that anytime we used the pool, I had to shock it either before or after use. I thought that to be odd. This was keeping with the Nature2 recommendations of 0.5ppm to 1.0ppm FC. So, the water measurements were perfect according to Nature2 at 1.0ppm FC, pH 7.6, TA 80, CYA 40, etc., but that was not enough to not have to shock the heck out of the pool every time we used it. It was on the max setting of 5 for 4 days and all it could muster was 3ppm. I didn't shock the pool in those 4 days as no one was using it. But I did keep an eye on FC. I was expecting it to skyrocket and it never did. Night before last, my chlorine levels dropped from 3ppm to 0ppm overnight with no pool usage for three days. We did have a good bit of rain though, so I was watching it. With the Nature2 and the inline feeder running, I figured the 3ppm FC would be enough to keep any problems from developing until the next morning. We woke up to a cloudy pool. I have no idea how that is even possible with this system set on the max setting of 5. So, to put it simply, this system requires you to add cal-hypo/bleach to keep FC where it truly needs to be if you plan on swimming in your pool. That's not what I was expecting from the sales pitch the PB gave me.
• Secondly, I cannot have anymore CYA introduced to the pool. Right now I'm at 40 and I want to keep it there. The 3" TriChlor tablets/pucks have to go immediately.
• Thirdly, when the pool went cloudy, the pH dropped from 7.6 to 6.7 overnight. I still have no clue how that happened. With that dive my TA went off the chart to below 6.0. Talk about freaking out as a new pool owner. OMG! What do I do now? Armed with guess strips, the only thing I could think to do was get the pH and TA up fast. Once I did that, I then had to add 7.5 pounds of cal-Hypo over the last two days to SLAM it. Lord have mercy! Look mah, I'm saving on chlorine with Nature2! LOL!
• And then, you have metal introduction into the pool with the Nature2. Not a good thing at all.

So, with all things being said, we MUST turn this system off. It's a pity that it was only after we purchased $400.00 of chemicals for this system that I'm now realizing it isn't going to be effective. I can still use the chemicals in small doses over time I supposed. That huge bucket of pucks will probably go bad before I can use them all though. I'd only use them to boost CYA whenever needed at this point.

I told the PB what my intentions are moving to a TFPC method and he tells me I'm getting bad information. He tells me they have installed this system on over 500 pools and NEVER had a problem. I find that extremely hard to believe if I, a complete pool noobie, can figure out in less than one month that the system they sold me is not capable of sanitizing this pool under normal use conditions without boosting FC regularly. Any savings on Chlorine the Nature2 system claims have already gone out of the window for us. Why keep it? It makes no sense at this point.

 

[needsajet]

You're making good decisions and you'll be able to get it all sorted once you get the test kit. The "500 pools with no problems" is a line we hear pretty often here!

The pucks can be handy for vacations, so hang onto those. They won't go bad. Make a note of how long they lasted in the inline chlorinator, and you can leave it in place for vacations as well. You might find that handy later on.

I agree with avoiding any more metals introduction.

How is the water looking now? It might be a good idea to hold off on any more shocking until you have the test kit. We generally avoid high FC until the plaster is 30 days old.

 

[Bananimal]

It looked like it was getting clearer this morning. I went back out to check a few hours ago and it was getting cloudy again. I noted a bunch of what I presume to be dead algae on the ledges when I brushed the pool. Clouds of very fine milky white powder. I don't know if that is residual from the soda ash I put in the other night or not. Looked the same. I'm not sure now if the cloudiness is a result of brushing the soda ash/dead algae or not keeping the FC high enough during my attempted SLAM. Looking at the test result, it appears something is consuming my FC as my TC is twice as high, so I assume I didn't SLAM it correctly. I was at 6ppm FC this morning after the shock last night. Looks like it wants to clear up but it's not really getting there. Still running the pump 24/7 until I can get it over the hump.

CH: 500
TC: 3
FC: 1 (Just added another 1.5 lbs. of Cal-Hypo after this measurement to keep things from getting out of control until the test kit arrives.)
pH 7.6
TA: 90
CYA: 40

Here's the view of the 3.5 foot side. Looks much better than it did before I swept the pool this afternoon. Not quite there yet.


And here's the deep end where you can really tell all is not well.

 

[Vickery]

Welcome to TFP! A very lovely installation; sorry for the trouble getting there. It would appear that your PB understands what it takes to construct a pool but not what is required to maintain one properly. I wonder if he swims in a cloudy pool? At least you got here before having to empty a frog pond and start over. You're on the right track, now!

 

[needsajet]

Best to stop using cal-hypo now. Use chlorinating liquid. That can be bleach or chlorinating liquid packaged for pools. It's the same thing.

Ensure your chlorinating liquid has a % shown - e.g. 8.25% sodium hypochlorite. Buy it from a high volume store, with a manufacture date higher than 16180 (16 means 2016, and 180 means the 180th day of the year (around the end of June). If you search "2016 bleach prices" on this forum, you'll find a thread about the latest best sources.

The cloudiness takes time for the filter to clear out, but from the sound of things, you're killing some algae.

The cloudiness can also be caused by other chemical additions and/or the brushing of the new plaster.

Your pH looks fine for now, until you start the SLAM. Don't try to SLAM until you get the test kit, and at that stage, you'll be dropping your pH down to 7.2 before starting. You'll need muriatic acid for that.

When do you expect to get the test kit? And what date was the pool plastered?

 

[Marlahoutex]

Welcome to TFP! The experts here will help keep you on the right track!

I noticed you said you were getting the IC40. You might want to consider going bigger, IC60?, because that will mean less work for the cell. You'll be able to run it at a lower percentage which saves wear and tear and in the long run will last longer.

I don't have Pentair, but have a Jandy 1400 SWCG for my 10k pool. I only have to keep it on 10-15% to keep my FC where it needs to be.

 

[needsajet]

I just re-read everything, and I'm not sure if you've removed Nature2 cartridge. It should be taken out so that no more copper is introduced. The cal-hypo you added has your FC level high enough.

Starting tomorrow or the next day, add 1/2 gallon of 8.25% bleach per day until you get the test kit.

Take a look at PoolMath (linked at the top of every page here) and start using it. It's an incredibly powerful tool that you'll be using to determine chemical additions.

When you get the kit, we'll be able to do an OCLT right away to see whether or not you have algae. I'm hoping the cloudiness is from the chemical additions and new plaster and your water may just need to be properly balanced and filtered long enough. It's very hard to tell from the guess-strip numbers. If the OCLT fails, then SLAM will be the way to go.

 

[needsajet]

That's good advice from Marla. The long term economics will be better with the larger SWG. You'll be able to run your pump fewer hours and the cell will last longer, more than offsetting the slightly higher initial cost.

 

[Bananimal]

Awesome. I can't thank you all enough for the tips. I will certainly budget for the larger SWCG then. I would like to limit the amount of time the pump runs as my electricity bill jumped up 100 bucks this month. Seems that the extra cost of the bigger cell will be offset by less pump run time.

I have been reading, and reading, and reading, but I've read so much that some of it is falling through the mental cracks. I guess the biggest thing for new pool owners is not knowing what we are looking at. Or what normal beginnings of algae look like. I knew something was wrong, but not what the cause was. Figured I'd try to get the numbers where they need to be then SLAM. I need that kit. It's scheduled to show up between the 10th and the 15th.

Was planning on going to SAM's tonight to pick up 12 gallons of bleach. Managed to get to the pool store and picked up 6 gallons of MA as once I get the pool balanced this time, I'm going to borate it immediately. Was on my way to Sam's and this severe electrical storm just let loose on us. Will wait until tomorrow in the AM to go get the bleach. About how many gallons can I expect to use a month once the pool is under control for 18,700 gallons?

All heck has broken loose here in southeast LA this month. We've been getting pummeled with heavy, heavy rains every day for two weeks. I think this may have contributed to the out of control spiral of the pool with my being a newbie. The forecast says we can expect the same for the next two weeks. It's been raining so hard right now, the water is touching the bottom of the coping. The overflow drain cannot keep up with the amount of rain falling in this short of a period. It's simply too much. Will this much rain every day for the next two weeks present any difficulties in getting the water under control? Thanks so much for the help. It is more than greatly appreciated.

 

[needsajet]

Predicting chlorine use is not possible because of all the differences in pools, but 2.5 ppm FC per day is a very rough average for summer. If the pool was kept covered, it's much less. If there's kids swimming every day and it's hot, it would be higher. You can get the amount of chlorinating liquid from PoolMath. See if you get these same figures for 2.5 ppm FC: Now that your days are getting shorter, FC extinction also goes down.

2.5 ppm FC in 18.700 gallons
8.25% bleach: 69 oz
10% liquid pool shock: 60 oz
12.5% pool chlorinating liquid: 48 oz
Some jugs are 121 oz instead of a full gallon at 128 oz, so shop wisely

Don't worry too much about the rain. Overflow, backwash and splashout take chemicals with the water. If the pool fills up and evaporates back down, the chemicals are all still there. Usually the effect of rain is not as much as you expect it to be, and sometimes the dilution is helpful, for example with your calcium level.

The pool will be looking great very soon.

 

[Bananimal]

Thanks. I thought there may be a link with the rain causing pool water to deteriorate because the guy at the pool counter told us that he's been swamped with more pool water tests than normal. He claimed he'd done 45 of them so far. Seems a lot more people than average are losing control of their water this weekend. Thought the rain might have something to do with it. Glad to know it's not that much of a contributing factor.

 

[needsajet]

At this time of year, pool $tores get a payoff from pool owners with over-stabilized pools, after their season of trichlor pucks, tabs, or dichlor adding CYA.

Rain can be a contributing factor, but my sense is it's not a huge deal for you right now. We got something near 7 inches here over 3 days and I had to add half a bag of salt and a pound of CYA, but not that big a deal for so much rain so fast. It would have dropped my TA a little, but that was a good thing.

 

[max2k]

At this time of year, pool $tores get a payoff from pool owners with over-stabilized pools, after their season of trichlor pucks, tabs, or dichlor adding CYA.

Rain can be a contributing factor, but my sense is it's not a huge deal for you right now. We got something near 7 inches here over 3 days and I had to add half a bag of salt and a pound of CYA, but not that big a deal for so much rain so fast. It would have dropped my TA a little, but that was a good thing.

Rain is a blessing around here- lowers CH and if you have high CYA- that too Never had a problem with rain water otherwise.

 

[Bananimal]

Come over here and I'll be glad to give you some! LOL!

 

[setsailsoon]

Ban,

Rough numbers on chemical cost for me is about $5 per mo. Mostly liquid cl at $3.5-$4. Your pool is 50% bigger but you have a SWG so your cl costs will be lower. Check out MA cost at Home Depot. I got 2 gal yesterday for $11.98. Glad to see you're using the pool too. We swim every day and love it. Swimming is great for us "forever young" crowd.

Welcome and I hope this helps.

Chris

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[setsailsoon]

Ban,

One more thing. What is the hardness of your pool fill water? We have very hard well water here in FL (20 gr/gal) and even treated city water is pretty high at 6-7 grains per gal. The reason I ask is you mentioned this at the beginning of your thread. If your water is like ours you'll want to soften it before you start getting calcium deposits on you gorgeous pool... not to mention bathroom fixtures and pipes. If you get a high number I'd recommend you look into installing a softener yourself. Water softener companies are about as bad or worse than pool companies. They'll use fear and pressure tactics to get you to spend thousands on equipment that you can buy equipment online and do yourself for about $500. After that, it's only $6/year for salt. I don't want to derail this thread into water softener talk so let me know if you're interested in finding out what I did and I'll start another thread in the appropriate place on this forum.

By the way "who dat?" (I went to high school in New Orleans).

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Bananimal]

Hi Chris,

Hardness of the pool water is 50ppm right out of the tap. Apparently I was wrong that it is 500ppm right out of the tap. I was basing that on the readings we got, and have gotten ever since the pool was opened about 3 weeks ago. Not sure where the calcium came from as we very rarely use Cal-Hypo. The very first test and every test since then with the exception of the one today has been 500ppm steady. I assumed the water was hard. I have to wonder how the pool guy that opened the pool got CH to 500ppm right off the bat. I know he only put 2lbs of shock, a little MA and some CYA in the pool. New plaster, perhaps?

Tap Water Test: (Guess Strips)

CH = 50
TC = 1.0
FC = 1.0
pH = 7.4
TA = 120
CYA = 0

 

[pooldv]

I recall that the water in south LA is soft. The only other place for CH to come from is your plaster. With low CH in your water the water will dissolve calcium from your plaster.