New Northeastern Pa Build

[jimim]

Good morning everyone. A beautiful icy day here in northeastern Pennsylvania.

1. They still put a cleaning line in regardless of whether you use a robot or not just to have it. I assume no harm no foul by having them still put it in ?

2. I totally got it on the salt generator I did a lot of reading last night and the one recommended above is the conclusion I came to also

3. So regarding the return lines is 2 enough? Also should they both be home runs? Cause right now they aren't.

4. Regarding the solar return system. I will get an exact layout from him today.

 

[Jimrahbe]

jim,

Two return lines is just not enough. I would say four is a minimum. Just so that we are all on the same page and using the same terminology.. a "return" line is used to return water to the pool after is has passed through the filter and SWCG. At the end of each return line is normally an "eyeball" that allows you to somewhat direct the flow of the returning water.. They generally cause the water to circulate around the perimeter of the pool and help move surface debris toward the skimmers.

Normally, returns are not individually home run back to the equipment pad.

Jim R.

 

[JVTrain]

I would want a minimum of 4 returns as well. They don't all have to be home runs, but it would be nice if for instance 2 of 4 returns were on each run rather than all on one, with a three way valve between the runs. More returns will give you better circulation for sanitation and better ability to adjust skimming action.

 

[jimim]

jim,

Two return lines is just not enough. I would say four is a minimum. Just so that we are all on the same page and using the same terminology.. a "return" line is used to return water to the pool after is has passed through the filter and SWCG. At the end of each return line is normally an "eyeball" that allows you to somewhat direct the flow of the returning water.. They generally cause the water to circulate around the perimeter of the pool and help move surface debris toward the skimmers.

Normally, returns are not individually home run back to the equipment pad.

Jim R.

yes we are talking about the same thing. i totally thought they were home runs?

ok so things that come and go from the pool:

1. returns. don't need to be home run.
2. drains. home run?
3. skimmers. home run?
4. cleaning line. will be home run cause it is only one.

anything i'm missing for the pool only?

for the spa:

1. drain. home run cause only 1.
2. jets. 6 of them do they all get ties together?
3. anything else for the spa i'm missing?

i thought i read somewhere everything pretty much went back as home runs.

i'm sorry i just don't know a lot. i have been reading though.

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I would want a minimum of 4 returns as well. They don't all have to be home runs, but it would be nice if for instance 2 of 4 returns were on each run rather than all on one, with a three way valve between the runs. More returns will give you better circulation for sanitation and better ability to adjust skimming action.

you lost me. so say 4 returns. 2 each tied together? so 2 final runs after they meet up back to the pad? explain the 3 way valve to me please?

 

[bmoreswim]

Regarding the returns not needing to be home run, when there are multiples on one line, usually there is a reduction in pipe diameter as the returns are passed - at least one reduction. However with only two on each line, maybe not a big deal.

On the three-way value - with that scenario, you would have 2 lines terminating at the pad. Those two are connected to two legs of a three-way value. The remaining leg goes to the filter outflow. So you can then split the return flow to one set of two, the other set of two or split between them. It allows you to balance the flow for the variability inherent in the plumbing flow to them both.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jim,

Returns don't have to be home run, but if they are then you would be able to control the amount of water going through them as Joel has pointed out.

Even though you will have two drains in the bottom of the pool, only one pipe will come from them. This pipe must be home run, do not let them connect to the bottom of the Skimmer (an old way to do it...)

Each Skimmer needs to be individually home run back to the equipment pad.

Cleaning pipe is home run...

See this for 3-way valve info... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIgbG3DA5fE

Jim R.

 

[kimkats]

Just jumping in to say THANKS to all that are helping out on this one. His pool is going to be so much better with all of this input!

Jim, You are asking great questions! Keep it up. If you want draw it out to show us what you THINK is being said and we can correct as needed.

Kim

 

[jimim]

Hey Jim,

Ok so i don't have push for home run returns. But I do need more of them you all think.

regarding the skimmers. one is home run. the other they said has to go to the drain cause it is the way that solar recirculating unit works. it takes water from the top of the pool and pushes it out through the bottom drain.

can the drains and skimmer come back to the pad and then push the water from the skimmer to the drain to recirculate. that way they are both home run at least?

jim

Jim,

Returns don't have to be home run, but if they are then you would be able to control the amount of water going through them as Joel has pointed out.

Even though you will have two drains in the bottom of the pool, only one pipe will come from them. This pipe must be home run, do not let them connect to the bottom of the Skimmer (an old way to do it...)

Each Skimmer needs to be individually home run back to the equipment pad.

Cleaning pipe is home run...

See this for 3-way valve info... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIgbG3DA5fE

Jim R.

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thats everyone also. thanks Kim. I appreciate it. I'll try and do that tonight. i'm going to email the pool guy now to make sure i have the skimmer recirculating thing down also.

thats again everyone.

 

[JVTrain]

you lost me. so say 4 returns. 2 each tied together? so 2 final runs after they meet up back to the pad? explain the 3 way valve to me please?

There would be 2 home runs, each connected to 2 returns. The home runs would terminate above ground at a 3 way valve on the exit side of your equipment. As mentioned, this way you could balance flow between the two pair of returns. Nice to have if you want more flow on one side or end of the pool, depending on how the runs are laid out. A 3-way valve means in the center of the T the flow comes in, then splits to 2 lines. With the valve between you can either have it wide open to both side or restrict flow slightly to one side, increasing flow to the other. Jandy NeverLube valves are preferred.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jim,

You said "the other they said has to go to the drain cause it is the way that solar recirculating unit works. it takes water from the top of the pool and pushes it out through the bottom drain. can the drains and skimmer come back to the pad and then push the water from the skimmer to the drain to recirculate"

I have never heard of this.. It could be good or bad, I have no idea. I suggest you ask your pool builder for some reference as to what this is and how it works in detail. Can he point you to some Internet description or explanation???

Is this just the way they plumb it, or is this a purchased unit of some kind???

Jim R.

 

[jimim]

perfect. totally makes good sense. thanks a lot. learning a lot here!!!

jim

There would be 2 home runs, each connected to 2 returns. The home runs would terminate above ground at a 3 way valve on the exit side of your equipment. As mentioned, this way you could balance flow between the two pair of returns. Nice to have if you want more flow on one side or end of the pool, depending on how the runs are laid out. A 3-way valve means in the center of the T the flow comes in, then splits to 2 lines. With the valve between you can either have it wide open to both side or restrict flow slightly to one side, increasing flow to the other. Jandy NeverLube valves are preferred.

 

[jimim]

solar recirculation

he is getting me more detailed info this week. it is one of their "things" they do. it adds a second skimmer. the skimmer pulls in the warm top water and recirculates it to the bottom drain which it gets pushed out of, through the drain. he said it helps heat the lower water so more even.

that is all i know right now.

Jim,

You said "the other they said has to go to the drain cause it is the way that solar recirculating unit works. it takes water from the top of the pool and pushes it out through the bottom drain. can the drains and skimmer come back to the pad and then push the water from the skimmer to the drain to recirculate"

I have never heard of this.. It could be good or bad, I have no idea. I suggest you ask your pool builder for some reference as to what this is and how it works in detail. Can he point you to some Internet description or explanation???

Is this just the way they plumb it, or is this a purchased unit of some kind???

Jim R.

 

[jimim]

ok here is a pic of the solar recirculating system. remember i have 2 skimmers. this pic shows 1 cause it isn't my layout. was told both skimmers are home run so I am good there.

Untitled by Jim, on Flickr

 

[jimim]

sorry i missed this post! my bad. The south side of our house is the side that you see the HVAC condensers. North side is the side with the swings.

I have to figure out a way to nicely say that I don't want the fusion and i want just the regular Jandy I just don't know how to put it and also get across the point that I'm not paying more for it cause I assume the piece I need is cheaper. I haven't check yet though.

The other think I want to ask about is adding 2 more returns but also want to say it properly without me pretty much saying add it and I'll pay whatever. I want to post up a pic tomorrow so i know exactly what extra it will take to add the 2 returns. i want them to 2 separate home runs. 2 in the deep end and 2 in the shallow. that way i can control the flow easier. i'm not even going to try to ask for 4 home runs.

Again sorry i missed this. was just seeing if anyone checked out the solar recirculation pic i put up. i found another company that uses them today online. They actually put in 3 in all their pools. they use the one skimmer and push the water from that skimmer out the 3 bottom drains in most of their designs.

Beautiful backyard for a pool. Which direction is north in the pics?

As Kim said, no Fusion (bad). You want an AquaPure PLC1400 since you are going Jandy. Jandy only has two sizes of SWCG's. One is for 12K gallons, which is too small, so you want the larger one. It should be sized at 1 1/2 - 2 times the size (gallons) of your pool.

It will all be beautiful again soon enough - guaranteed. Don't stress over the mess and destroyed lawn. Use your energy to stress over what matters, the build itself. You are asking good questions. One mistake people do make is to not take good advice.

 

[bmoreswim]

For me the reply to the pool builder would be all about making them feel like their way is really good but that you have some interest in taking a little different approach regarding the equipment and subsequent maintenance. I'm going to be responsible for maintaining the pool so I feel strongly enough to have you go in a little different direction than you might normally.

Just going with the idea that no one is wrong in the equation, but that you have a specific approach in mind and the knowledge to make that approach work.

If he can't relate to that, then move to the harder approach of, I'm buying this thing, sell me what I want. [emoji3]

I was able to develop a great rapport with my PB and I could have ANY conversation with him. He even wanted to hire me. Thought we didn't always agree.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jim,

Now that I understand what a Solar Recirculating System does, I can see nothing wrong with it at all. It sounds like your PB does this all the time and I would go with it.

I can see how it helps circulate the water, but it does little for the surface circulation that helps skim the pool. I still think that having four return eyeballs is necessary even with the SRS.

Adding two more eyeballs will cost the PB next to nothing, especially if they are all connected to the same return line at the pad.

Just tell the PB you have decided you don't want to add minerals to your pool and see what he suggests.. A different SWCG or maybe just leaving the mineral packs out of the fusion system.

Thanks for the research you did on the Solar Recirculating System.. it was perfect!!!

Jim R.

 

[kimkats]

I like the idea of the solar recir. It even makes sense mix the water up better to heat it all.

Look up the pricing online before you assume they cost the same. Make sure you are going apples to apples. IF he pushes back on the one he wants to use you can do like Jim says and just take the mineral pack out.

Kim

 

[jimim]

thanks for the response. i was going to say with me re: to the maintainance that it will be easier for me since i will be the one doing the maintainance.

i have to pick a time to ask. lol

jim

For me the reply to the pool builder would be all about making them feel like their way is really good but that you have some interest in taking a little different approach regarding the equipment and subsequent maintenance. I'm going to be responsible for maintaining the pool so I feel strongly enough to have you go in a little different direction than you might normally.

Just going with the idea that no one is wrong in the equation, but that you have a specific approach in mind and the knowledge to make that approach work.

If he can't relate to that, then move to the harder approach of, I'm buying this thing, sell me what I want. [emoji3]

I was able to develop a great rapport with my PB and I could have ANY conversation with him. He even wanted to hire me. Thought we didn't always agree.

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ok good to know that you think it is a good idea. makes me a bit more comfortable. cause like i said i really am learning as i'm going here. i do still want 2 more returns. so you think having all 4 returns on the same run is ok then to save money?

say they say they will do it and ask how i would like it run? would i say 2 returns tied together in low end back to pad and 2 in deep end tied together and back to bad so i can control at least 2 at a time? what would it look like back at pad valves and such for control so i can explain to them since it would be different then they usually do?

or you have a better layout idea?

Jim,

Now that I understand what a Solar Recirculating System does, I can see nothing wrong with it at all. It sounds like your PB does this all the time and I would go with it.

I can see how it helps circulate the water, but it does little for the surface circulation that helps skim the pool. I still think that having four return eyeballs is necessary even with the SRS.

Adding two more eyeballs will cost the PB next to nothing, especially if they are all connected to the same return line at the pad.

Just tell the PB you have decided you don't want to add minerals to your pool and see what he suggests.. A different SWCG or maybe just leaving the mineral packs out of the fusion system.

Thanks for the research you did on the Solar Recirculating System.. it was perfect!!!

Jim R.

 

[jimim]

thanks for reminding me. i'm going to do that now. i talked with another PB today. they said i'm a little outside their area but would come up. they said i have to realize from the go that it will take longer than the normal. i just said i'm totally fine with that cause i'm starting earlier but i d need assurance that you will stay on time within reason so my back isn't up against the wall for the work after the gunite so i'm not up against a wall for the winter coming in.

my plan was start july 1st. take pool to coping only. then have my guys get all decking and steps to lower elevation done (at least concrete poured for pavers to sit on. i'm installing them on a 4 inch pour for controlling frost freeze cause that's really how they should be done up here), get utility out to all locations from my basement (ater, gas, electric), get pad for pool house poured with footers, pool house built and wrapped. then i'm happy to finish the rest next spring. or at least get all the way to the pool house being built.

I like the idea of the solar recir. It even makes sense mix the water up better to heat it all.

Look up the pricing online before you assume they cost the same. Make sure you are going apples to apples. IF he pushes back on the one he wants to use you can do like Jim says and just take the mineral pack out.

Kim

 

[jimim]

I looked up the 2 SWG.

Jandy PLC1400 unit
Jandy APUREM powercell

Zodiac FSOFT1400
Zodiac FusionM poercell

Do i need the powercell for each too? I assume yes? they don't come with them?

Prices I"m seeing online for the jandy and zodiac are the same pretty much. 599-608 for the units. but i assume again the cell is separate? I can't figure it out.

jim