Polaris vac-sweep 360 question

[Major_in_MS]

I've recently moved my family into a new home with an in ground, vinyl liner, 18' x 36 rectangular pool with an average depth of 5 feet. I'm guessing it's around 24,000 gallons. It has a Polaris vac-sweep 360 that is running from a pressure outlet next to the skimmer basket. According to the polaris web site this model sweeper "operates without a separate booster pump." However, my pool has a separate booster pump feeding this pressure return. The sweeper runs fine without turning on the booster pump, so I'm thinking that the previous owners have replaced another model sweeper that needed the booster pump. My question is this, Will my sweeper work better with the booster pump turned on? Will it damage my sweeper if I run it with the booster pump? Would I be better off with one of the other model sweepers that use the booster pump?

I will limit this post to these questions about the sweeper, I will soon have a post for "Just getting started" about my water. I'm waiting on my K-2006C to arrive next week. I don't believe any of the results that I have gotten from the clorox test strips that were left at the house.

 

[needsajet]

Welcome to TFP! Good to have you here

I'm only a little help on the Polaris, but I'm often available when it's night time in the USA, so I'll watch for your post about water.

Here's the manual for the Polaris: http://www.royalswimmingpools.com/Polaris360_manual.pdf

You can check wheel RPM without the pump running. If it's fine, that's great. If it's low, double check the pressure relief valve per the procedure in the manual (page 5), then loosen it a bit and try the pump. The pressure relief valve is adjusted to get the right wheel speed (page 7)

 

[Major_in_MS]

Thank you for the link to the manual, I've been meaning to try to find that myself. On my next day off I will check the wheel RPM and adjust it as needed.

My K-2006 test kit was shipped Saturday, so I will probably get it Wednesday. The previous owners of my pool used the clorox active99 3" tablets and the clorox test strips show my CYA level at 100, so I'm thinking about going ahead and doing a 60% water change before my new kit comes in. I'll probably drop it as much as I can by backwash in the morning and then siphon it down about 3 feet below full. Then I'll drop a couple of garden hoses in and hope it is full again by the time my test kit gets here. If I can figure out how to operate the Jandy gray three way valve with the broken handle to shut off the skimmer return, I may be able to backwash/drain all the way with the pump. I ordered a new handle for the valve, it should be here on Tuesday.

 

[needsajet]

I'd help you either way, but we have two premie grandies (born 29 w; now 32 w; one in high dependency, one still in NICU). I don't know your specialty within pediatric, but I am in awe of what all the pediatric teams do!!! Very happy to help any way I can.

At this time of year, your water is probably pretty warm, which gives you another option if you have any concern about ground water pressing up on the pool.

Not discouraging you at all on the drain/refill; that's likely to be entirely fine and is the most reliable/effective way. I'm glad to hear you're reducing your CYA which is an important move.

You can put your fresh water hose at the bottom of the pool, no nozzle on it so it doesn't mix the water up too much. Don't let the metal end rub, but weight it down to hold it there (rocks in a sock). Shut off your main drain if you can (same valve issue you mentioned, so this might not be possible). Pull your drain water from the top via the skimmers.

You'll be creating a layer of cool, fresh water at the bottom, and because CYA diffuses poorly, you're drawing the CYA laden water from the top. Counteracting this is that the water on top is more dense because of dissolved solids, so this method is not always effective. The bigger the delta T between pool water and refill water, the more effective the method.

I think you should probably continue as planned, but it's also fair for you to know the options.

 

[Major_in_MS]

I'm sorry to hear that your grand babies are having to spend their first weeks in the hospital, hopefully they will get to go home soon. I worked for ten years in pediatric hematology/oncology and now I work on a pediatric medical/surgical unit. I have never worked in any NICU or critical care areas, but I have great respect for the nurses that do choose to work in these areas.

My yard has a gentle downward slope on three sides away from the pool and on the north boundary of my lot there is a creek, this creek is where my backwash/drain pipe empties and the level of the water in the creek appears to be close to the level of the bottom of my pool. I believe the groundwater level should be below the surface of the creek and I will not be draining my pool more than three feet, so I'm not really worried about it. I was curious about how effective it would be to backwash and fill at the same time but I decided to just drain and then fill, I figured this would give me a lower water bill in the end. If you see a flaw in my logic about the groundwater then please let me know. I hate having those "duh" moments when you realize after the fact that you should have thought of something.

 

[needsajet]

Amazing what you do; just so much harder giving and getting information with kids and seeing them cope with things with less than adult understanding. Great contributions you make.

You logic is good. It's fair to say that groundwater is unpredictable, but as long as you've thought it through and decided, I'm with you. Agreed that total replacement water will be less with drain/refill.

I meant to mention in the prior post that pool valves are easy to work on. Pressure off of course, ad you might get wet, but the diverter lifts straight out and parts are replaceable. If you have two the same, you could keep an eye on location of the diverter as you take it out, then swap with the broken one after setting the diverter to the same position. Buying the parts or even a whole valve to use parts from is not too costly.

 

[Major_in_MS]

I did order the O-ring kit when I ordered the replacement handle for my valve. I was planning on taking the top off to see what condition the valve was in before I tried to turn it and wanted to have the new O-rings already when I took it apart.

 

[needsajet]

Excellent, already underway! Looking forward to hearing how it all goes.

 

[JohnInTX]

Are you sure it is a Polaris 360 and not a 380? The 380 uses the booster pump and the 360 runs off the normal return flow. The way to tell is the size of the hose that connects the sweeper to the pool wall - the 380 has a 3/4" feed hose, the 360 has a much bigger hose (as shown in the link). Not sure why someone would replace a 380 with a 360 if the pump was good. I saw a 360 on a boost pump system and it didn't work too well - we rebuilt it as a 380 and it was fine after that.

If the thing looks old (yellowing wheels, opaque blue cover) you might just consider a factory tune up or factory rebuild kit to restore it to fully operational condition. The rebuild kit (P/N 9-100-9030 for a 380, about $210 street) takes about an hour to do and replaces everything but the main frame with the serial number and the feed hose. If it's more than 5 years old, I'd do it (I just did mine and it is working like a little champ). I've rebuilt a bunch of them, its not hard to do.

Since you just moved in you probably have other things going but I have more good news. The wiring to the booster pump looks like simple romex instead of weather-tight conduit or other outdoor-rated stuff. That will eventually deteriorate in the sun, making an electrical hazard. I'd have a look at the cord on the main pump too. Codes vary but the romex isn't allowed like that.

I also don't see a bonding wire. That's a big bare copper wire that connects all of the pumps together and among other things, provides a redundant ground path. On a gunite pool, this wire is bonded to the steel frame of the pool, lights, decks etc., runs through every pump, heater etc. and is connected to the ground bus in the timer box. That in turn is connected by wire (not just the metal conduit) back to ground in the main box. I don't know how much is required for a vinyl liner rig but looking at your wiring in general, it looks dicy. At the very least, I would check to see if the service wiring is providing proper grounding. Open the timer box and look for green wires from both pumps connected securely to the green ground wire at a bonding strip in the box coming in from that conduit running out of the right hand side of the picture. Don't have a green wire in the conduit? I wouldn't get into the pool. That would mean that it is relying on the steel conduit itself for a ground. If there is a gap or loose attachment somewhere along the line, you lose protection. Does the pool have a light (maybe the switch at the far left of the brick in the picture?) If so, proper grounding is even more important. I don't want to alarm you, but you should check it out. If you have any doubts you can post a picture of the inside of the timer box or better yet, consult a qualified, licensed electrician. The reason for all of this is that in the event that some insulating layer fails - maybe in a pump - the resulting current leakage goes to ground and pops a breaker. It doesn't go through and pop you. I would run a big copper wire (8 AWG), daisy chained with no breaks, connecting both pumps into the timer box and connect that to the hopefully present green ground lugs inside. The pumps should have a screw-clamp affair with a little box-screw clamp that the wire goes through.

The fact that the booster pump itself looks like it's controlled by a simple switch is telling. Every one I've seen is controlled by a dual-timer box at a minimum. Since yours seems to be er.. different. I'd treat all of the wiring as suspect until I verified it. Who knows who wired it? At any rate, it looks like an afterthought which might explain the 360/380 confusion.

It looks like you are missing a band-clamp on the backwash line (the one that exits the filter towards the brick) and maybe another on the main pump outlet? If those are flexible lines, you need clamps.

About the CYA, the K2006 manual says it peters out at 80-100 ppm CYA and recommends testing with a 50-50 mix of pool and tap water to extend the range of the test (page 27 of the Pool and Spa Water Chemistry booklet). Mine is high too.

FWIW, the little black cap on the Jandy valve is a grease fitting. Remove the cap and pack the appropriate Jandy valve grease into it. Set the valve to the middle position (like shown in your picture). That positions the shutoff blade against the grease port. Screw it in until you feel it squeezing the grease against the blade. It doesn't take much.

Finally, when it comes time to pull and replace the screws in the Jandy valve, here's my favorite trick. When you replace the screws, rotate each one counter-clockwise while applying some down-force. The screw will rise up then 'thunk' down with each revolution. When it thunks down, screw it in by hand a few turns. If hand turning doesn't do it, repeat the process. Eventually, the screw will spin in. That will ensure that the threads are aligned and that the screw will pick up and use the original threads. You don't want to just shove it in. If you do, you may cause it to make new threads in the plastic valve body. Those threads come at the expense of material. Do that a few times and there is no new material left and its new valve time.

Welcome aboard. I'm a newbie here as well. Lots of very knowledgeable people here.

EDIT: Googling pool bonding and grounding finds some in depth discussion right here at TFP. I should have known. Hopefully, some of those guys will chime in with better specifics.

 

[Major_in_MS]

Are you sure it is a Polaris 360 and not a 380? The 380 uses the booster pump and the 360 runs off the normal return flow. The way to tell is the size of the hose that connects the sweeper to the pool wall - the 380 has a 3/4" feed hose, the 360 has a much bigger hose (as shown in the link). Not sure why someone would replace a 380 with a 360 if the pump was good. I saw a 360 on a boost pump system and it didn't work too well - we rebuilt it as a 380 and it was fine after that.

This is my first Polaris and I am a first time pool owner. I did quite a bit of searching on the net before deciding that I have a 360. The booster pump is "very loud" and probably needs rebuilding. The previous owners may have bought the 360 to keep from replacing/rebuilding the booster pump.

If the thing looks old (yellowing wheels, opaque blue cover) you might just consider a factory tune up or factory rebuild kit to restore it to fully operational condition. The rebuild kit (P/N 9-100-9030 for a 380, about $210 street) takes about an hour to do and replaces everything but the main frame with the serial number and the feed hose. If it's more than 5 years old, I'd do it (I just did mine and it is working like a little champ). I've rebuilt a bunch of them, its not hard to do.

The unit itself seems to be working well, I have ordered new hose sections and swivels and floats to replace the hose due to leaks. I have not had a chance to count the wheel revolutions yet because I'm working on my water chemistry right now.

Since you just moved in you probably have other things going but I have more good news. The wiring to the booster pump looks like simple romex instead of weather-tight conduit or other outdoor-rated stuff. That will eventually deteriorate in the sun, making an electrical hazard. I'd have a look at the cord on the main pump too. Codes vary but the romex isn't allowed like that.

Yeah, I did notice the sketchy wiring.

I also don't see a bonding wire. That's a big bare copper wire that connects all of the pumps together and among other things, provides a redundant ground path. On a gunite pool, this wire is bonded to the steel frame of the pool, lights, decks etc., runs through every pump, heater etc. and is connected to the ground bus in the timer box. That in turn is connected by wire (not just the metal conduit) back to ground in the main box. I don't know how much is required for a vinyl liner rig but looking at your wiring in general, it looks dicy. At the very least, I would check to see if the service wiring is providing proper grounding. Open the timer box and look for green wires from both pumps connected securely to the green ground wire at a bonding strip in the box coming in from that conduit running out of the right hand side of the picture. Don't have a green wire in the conduit? I wouldn't get into the pool. That would mean that it is relying on the steel conduit itself for a ground. If there is a gap or loose attachment somewhere along the line, you lose protection. Does the pool have a light (maybe the switch at the far left of the brick in the picture?) If so, proper grounding is even more important. I don't want to alarm you, but you should check it out. If you have any doubts you can post a picture of the inside of the timer box or better yet, consult a qualified, licensed electrician. The reason for all of this is that in the event that some insulating layer fails - maybe in a pump - the resulting current leakage goes to ground and pops a breaker. It doesn't go through and pop you. I would run a big copper wire (8 AWG), daisy chained with no breaks, connecting both pumps into the timer box and connect that to the hopefully present green ground lugs inside. The pumps should have a screw-clamp affair with a little box-screw clamp that the wire goes through.

Does this look like I'm grounded ok?

The fact that the booster pump itself looks like it's controlled by a simple switch is telling. Every one I've seen is controlled by a dual-timer box at a minimum. Since yours seems to be er.. different. I'd treat all of the wiring as suspect until I verified it. Who knows who wired it? At any rate, it looks like an afterthought which might explain the 360/380 confusion.

I'm thinking about replacing my timer box with an electronic one. I guess I need to decide whether I'm keeping the booster pump before I order a new timer.

It looks like you are missing a band-clamp on the backwash line (the one that exits the filter towards the brick) and maybe another on the main pump outlet? If those are flexible lines, you need clamps.

The flex line is cemented into the fitting at the main pump outlet. The rest of the ends do have clamps on them.

About the CYA, the K2006 manual says it peters out at 80-100 ppm CYA and recommends testing with a 50-50 mix of pool and tap water to extend the range of the test (page 27 of the Pool and Spa Water Chemistry booklet). Mine is high too.

Monday, i did a 60% to 70% water exchange and now my CYA is reading between 30 and 40, so I'm using 40 for all my calculations.

FWIW, the little black cap on the Jandy valve is a grease fitting. Remove the cap and pack the appropriate Jandy valve grease into it. Set the valve to the middle position (like shown in your picture). That positions the shutoff blade against the grease port. Screw it in until you feel it squeezing the grease against the blade. It doesn't take much.

I ordered some grease and replacement parts for my Jandy valve. It is now working flawlessly.

Finally, when it comes time to pull and replace the screws in the Jandy valve, here's my favorite trick. When you replace the screws, rotate each one counter-clockwise while applying some down-force. The screw will rise up then 'thunk' down with each revolution. When it thunks down, screw it in by hand a few turns. If hand turning doesn't do it, repeat the process. Eventually, the screw will spin in. That will ensure that the threads are aligned and that the screw will pick up and use the original threads. You don't want to just shove it in. If you do, you may cause it to make new threads in the plastic valve body. Those threads come at the expense of material. Do that a few times and there is no new material left and its new valve time.

My dad taught me that trick to align the threads about 40 years ago.
Two of the screws will not tighten due cracks in the valve housing, but the remaining screws seem to be sufficient to maintain a good seal for now. I'm not ready to replace the whole valve yet.

Welcome aboard. I'm a newbie here as well. Lots of very knowledgeable people here.

EDIT: Googling pool bonding and grounding finds some in depth discussion right here at TFP. I should have known. Hopefully, some of those guys will chime in with better specifics.

Thanks for the input and the detailed post. I'm glad I found this forum.

 

[JohnInTX]

That's a 360 all right. No idea why its combined with a boost pump. The wiring/control makes it look like an afterthought. I guess you'll have to decide which way to take it 360 or 380. I am not familiar with the 360 except to say that when I tried one on a 380 setup with boost pump, it didn't work well. If you decide to bite the bullet and go 380, the factory rebuild kit for the 380 has everything that will make either one into a 380. You'd have to buy a new feed hose for the 380 and maybe a new pump if the old one is dying. A cheap way to decide might be to bypass the booster pump plumbing and see how it works.

Your wiring is hmmm.. functional, with several issues.
There shouldn't be any wire nuts in the ground wires. Those short, scabbed-together pieces of wire don't make me happy. A possible reason for someone doing that is so that the stranded cord wires don't have to be used under the screw clamps on the timer but those clamps are rated for solid or stranded. It may be that the installer just ran a few inches short of cord? Either way, its some dicy stuff and throws shadows on the installer's overall competence.

The wire colors imply 120V (the white is for neutral) but it's wired like its 240V (breaks both poles). Do you know which it is? If you don't have a voltmeter, you can turn the power off at the breaker, snap the timer out and see what the voltage the timer motor is.

At least all of the grounds are connected but it looks like the box is only grounded through the conduit nut (there should be a ground wire screwed to the metal box) and the timer plate should have a ground wire connected as well. If you look at the timer plate above the screw with all the ground wires (the 'A' terminal - a useful tie point), you'll see a threaded hole (6-32 or 8-32, can't remember offhand). That's where you attach a ground wire to the plate and connect it to the ground point on provided on yours by that 'A' terminal. That will give the timer plate a solid ground. For reference, look at how the timer is held into the box. The plate rests on those little punched ears and is held in place by a spring clamp. That's not a real ground, hence the need for the wire.

The remnants of the plastic insulating sheet that covers the screws is visible on the oblong peg just above the ground screw. You can buy these at any pool store or home depot etc. Keep the box closed. These deteriorate quickly in the sun. Your timer is an Intermatic T104xx or similar.

It looks like the boost pump switch is hot-wired to the line supply (from the conduit). This means that the pump will run whenever you turn the switch on, even if the main pump is not running, yes? That's not good - the boost pump needs water from the main pump or else the impeller seal will burn out (noise and leaks - $20 seal and some wrenching to fix). In the interim, consider moving the boost pump black/white wires from screws 1 and 3 (the line input) to 2 and 4 (the switched output to the main pump). Not optimal but will only allow it to run when the main pump is running.

I kind of like your idea of a new controller. If you elect to go with a 380 you'll want a dual timer setup when you upgrade - one for the main, one for the Polaris. I presume the 360 just runs whenever the main pump does. If it freezes in Mississippi, you'll want a freeze switch to keep the water circulating on those few days in winter when it gets cold. Intermatic used to sell a dual timer setup in a box setup for less than the cost of replacement timers but I don't see them any more. I'm personally not a fan of fancy pool electronics as I've had to repair many of them for my upscale neighbors. For awhile it seemed like every thunderstorm that went through guaranteed that I would be in scotch and cigars (the going rate) for the month. Food for thought.

You probably have a lot on your plate but I'd try to get some of that cleaned up ASAP. If it were mine, it would be off the wall by now - stripped down to the conduit inlet and bare terminals on the pumps. Then I'd rewire it with a new control, local disconnect, proper plastic flexible conduit with weathertight connectors to pumps and box, 12AWG THHN/THWN solid conductors (assuming 240V) - in the right colors including green insulated ground wires - with a proper ground-bonding strip-of-screws in the box to tie everything together. But that's just me - I've done it before and have all of the cool tools. You might want to consult with a real, licensed electrician with some pool experience. If you want to take a shot at it, I guess this is the place to kick it around.

Good luck with your pondering.

Questions:
How did you do the water exchange? Pump out and refill or that fancy hose trick with the hose at the bottom lifting the CYA water to the overflow?
The screw trick: nice that you knew. Not many do. My kid went to Navy nuclear power school and the instructor was likewise amazed that he knew that one.

 

[Major_in_MS]

Questions:
How did you do the water exchange? Pump out and refill or that fancy hose trick with the hose at the bottom lifting the CYA water to the overflow?

I've tested the 360 now that I replaced the leaky hose sections and leaky swivels and it runs well on just the main pool pump. So I will just use it as is, without turning on the booster pump.

I did my water exchange by closing the skimmer return at the Jandy valve and using the pump to drain from the main drain. At first I was draining by backwash. I thought, "I'll really get my sand clean." Then after about 2 hours I realized, "Doh, I'm just filtering all of this waste water backwards through my filter and as soon as I start filtering again it will wash all this dirt back into my pool." So I shut off the pump and changed to drain to waste for the remainder. I lowered the level 3 feet, about 14,000 gallon. Then I dropped 3 garden hoses into the pool and suffered through low water pressure in the house for the rest of that day and night. It was full again around 10 the next morning.

My continuing saga is documented in the thread http://www.troublefreepool.com/thre...-pool-getting-the-chemistry-right-(Hopefully)

Thanks again for your help and recommendations on the electrical issues. I believe I will order a new digital timer and install it on my next off days.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, one thing I noted about the 2 hour backwash. The baseline pressure on my sand filter is now at 15 psi instead of the 21 psi that I usually saw after a normal 5-6 minute backwash.

 

[needsajet]

Sounds like you deep cleaned that puppy! You might have invented a new technique!