All in one Ph lowering Package

[LostBoyinVA]

Does anyone have a source for a cheap, all in one ph Adjustment system? I need an ph down solution not a ph up soluiton. I like an all in one, buy this follow the include instructions, monitor and adjust as needed solution.

I have a Plaster Pool with a SWG and a water feature that runs constantly when the pump is on. I could probably eliminate my MA demand signifcantly if I turned off my water feature, but that is the wife's favorite Pool feature so that isn't happening either.

I know you can buy a pump, buy a jug, buy some hose and build your own, but I'm not that mechanically inclined. I can follow instruction like drill this, mount this, etc, but to do it all on my own, I'm just not that inventive with mechanical stuff.

I also have seen the do it yourself solution here in the forum. It is pretty well documented and I'm considering that solution.

I know there are couple of expensive (multiple thousands of dollar solutions) packaged ph lowering solutions, like the AutoPilot Total Control and others. None of those that I have seen are less then $2000.

What I want is a less then $500 solution like the Liquidator for PH control. Something that like the Liquidator can be installed by the average Joe Homeowner without having to do things like installting a CO2 tank and arranging for refills, etc. HASA who makes the Liquidator makes a "ph Adjuster", but I can't find a source and HASA has not responded to my inquiries via their contacts page.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Yes, I know this would not eliminate my need for PH testing any more then the SWG eliminates my need to test my CH. Yes it really isn't all that hard to dump MA in the pool once a week. I just like things to happen automatically if at all possilble.

 

[JasonLion]

There is The pHAdjuster, made by the same people that make the Liquidator.

However, if you adjust your water balance correctly you should be able to eliminate most, or all, of the PH drift you are currently seeing.

 

[LostBoyinVA]

I can not find an Online source for the "phAdjuster" by HASA who makes the clorinator. The "phAdjuster" would be perfect, but I can't find anywhere to buy it. I have tried the contact us page at http://www.ezpool.com/phadjuster.htm and have not gotten a response.

I feel my water is adjusted correctly. My CYA is currently a little low for a SWG. I have added CYA to get it higher since I last tested. Other then that all my numbers are within standard limits. The pool has been crystal clear for the last 4 seasons, but has always needed Acid to keep PH in check. I have 2 dogs who drink from the pool so I don't feel comfortable putting Borates in, which could probably help the situation.

I'll post my latest numbers tonight, maybe I'm missing something that would help.

 

[Guest]

Post numbers. IF we know what they are we might be able to tweak them to reduce your acid demand. Being in 'standard range' is often not where you want them to be with a SWG and some manufacurers are now starting to recognise this (some Hayward/Goldline techs are telling people to lower TA down to about 70!)

 

[LostBoyinVA]

Ok I'm confused. Everything I have read here and the Pool Forum over the last 4 years indicates that a Purpose of controlling TA is that it is a PH Buffer among other things. I tend to run TA in the 100ish range to help with the PH drift on the assumption that TA is a PH Buffer.

keeping your TA above 120 will help the PH be more stable

from this Thread here among many others read over the last few years agrees with my assumption. Do you have any articles I can read that show Low TA is better for PH Drift then High, but not out of range, TA?

Either way I'll run a full test Today or Tomorow and post the numbers.

Thanks,

 

[JasonLion]

TA does two different things at the same time. First, TA helps buffer PH changes. Higher TA levels make it more difficult to change the PH. Second, TA puts upward pressure on the PH, so that over time the PH will increase. Higher TA levels result in more rapid increases in PH. PH increases more quickly the more aeration the pool gets.

If you are using trichlor and/or dichlor it is important to keep your PH high (100 or higher) to prevent the acid in trichlor and dichlor from reducing your PH too quickly.

With any other source of chlorine, it is possible to run TA at lower levels, as low as 60, which will reduce the upward pressure on the PH and result in the PH being more stable in most situations.

 

[Guest]

Ok I'm confused. Everything I have read here and the Pool Forum over the last 4 years indicates that a Purpose of controlling TA is that it is a PH Buffer among other things. I tend to run TA in the 100ish range to help with the PH drift on the assumption that TA is a PH Buffer.
If you were using trichlor, bromine, dichlor, chlorine gas, or MPS this would be the APSP recommended level as taught in CPI course but with unstabilized chlorine (Or a SWG) it's really a bit high (actually the highest recommended by the APSP and in reality too high)and will lead to faster outgassing of CO2 and faster pH rise since the bicarbonate buffer system keeps moving the pH toward 8.3!

keeping your TA above 120 will help the PH be more stable

from this Thread here among many others read over the last few years agrees with my assumption. Do you have any articles I can read that show Low TA is better for PH Drift then High, but not out of range, TA?
This thread was referring to trichlor usage. You have a SWG which is different, If you go to Pool School (link is in my sig and in the upper right hand corner of every page) it's all explained there. If you have not read it I suggest that you take the time to do so! You can start with this topic
pool-school/recommended_levels
but you should really read the whole thing twice as a minimum!
Either way I'll run a full test Today or Tomorow and post the numbers.

Thanks,

The thread you referred to above is dealing with trichlor, which is acidic and needs a higher pH.
These threads might be helpful to you but some are a bit technical so you have been warned!
They will explain it.
The key here is that pH rise is caused by outgassing of CO2 and that the higher the TA (bicarbonates in the water) the faster CO2 will outgas. Aeration speeds up outgassing and SWGs aerate the water by the production of hydrogen bubbles at one of the electrodes.

water-balance-tips-for-a-swg-t3663.html
ta-what-is-it-really-t4979.html
how-to-lower-ta-t5341.html
acid-column-myth-t1089.html
so-you-want-to-add-borates-to-your-pool-why-and-how-t4921.html
(I have three dogs, they CAN be trained not to drink from the pool and it can be done fairly quickly and easily with reward based training!)

 

[LostBoyinVA]

Thanks for the Education Waterbear.

I was just reading the thread at ta-what-is-it-really-t4979.html and was interested to see that CYA is a PH Buffer as well. I know my CYA is low and I'm in the process of raising it. I have a SWG, but due to my studies here I usually run it around 60ish. I'll have to consider going up towards the 80ish discussed in the above thread. I am going to let my TA drop down to 60-80ish as I add my regular acid demand and see what that does for the PH rise. Usually when it gets near 80 I add Baking Soda and raise it back up near 100. That only needs to be done a couple of times a year, but I have plenty or airation if I decide to see what a lower TA will do for my MA demand.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I think you'll be pleased with the results of running at a lower TA.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the Education Waterbear.

I was just reading the thread at ta-what-is-it-really-t4979.html and was interested to see that CYA is a PH Buffer as well.
but is is NOT carbonate alkalinity, which is responsible for the pH rise so it's not considered part of the carbonate buffer system we call TA.
This is why Taylor and other recommend correcting TA for CYA (but unless you have very high CYA it really doesn't make that much difference. Even at the normal SWG levels you can pretty much ignore it if you keep your TA in the middle of the recommended range for SWGS (60-80 ppm).
I know my CYA is low and I'm in the process of raising it. I have a SWG, but due to my studies here I usually run it around 60ish. I'll have to consider going up towards the 80ish discussed in the above thread. I am going to let my TA drop down to 60-80ish as I add my regular acid demand and see what that does for the PH rise.
Getting your CYA up to 80 (not 80ish, what number is 80ish?) will have a great impact on your pH stability since it should allow you to lower your output percentage to maintain your same FC level.
Usually when it gets near 80 I add Baking Soda and raise it back up near 100. That only needs to be done a couple of times a year, but I have plenty or airation if I decide to see what a lower TA will do for my MA demand.

Get the TA down to about 60 ppm with water features (and raise CH to keep the CSI in range) and you should see a big improvement.

Remeber not to lower the pH too low when you do lower it since CO2 outgasses faster the lower the pH, hence the faster the pH will rise again. As a rule of thumb keep the pH below 7.8, when it hits 7.8 lower it to 7.6.
Finally, the borates will make a major difference if you decide to go that route!
With borates you have a slightly bigger window since (7.5-7.9) borates will stabilize your ph right at 7.7 for an extended period of time in the vast majority of pools. When the pH hits 8.0 drop it to about 7.5.

 

[LostBoyinVA]

Getting your CYA up to 80 (not 80ish, what number is 80ish?) will have a great impact on your pH stability since it should allow you to lower your output percentage to maintain your same FC level.

Given the nature of the disapearing Dot CYA test the best I'm ever willing to say on CYA involves an ish on the end. I also would at most put a 5 like 35 or 75 on my CYA number since no CYA test tube I have ever purchased is graduated in anything but multiples of 10.


This

allow you to lower your output percentage

however I think is the Key. I have the SWG currently running at over 50% and since I opened only a week ago the pump is still running 24/7. (that changes this weekend). If I raise my CYA I can cut the production down which will lower the PH increase factor.

That still doesn't change the fact that there will be a PH increase over time and I'd like to Automate the PH control in an inexpensive maner, but it is a start.

 

[JasonLion]

It is possible in many pools to get the rate of PH increase down so low that you would not know the PH was changing. If it takes a month or more for the PH to go from 7.5 to 7.8 then I don't call it a problem any more.

 

[Guest]

It is possible in many pools to get the rate of PH increase down so low that you would not know the PH was changing. If it takes a month or more for the PH to go from 7.5 to 7.8 then I don't call it a problem any more.

A Month? In my pool it's more like every three months now that I have to add any acid! An automated system would actually be MORE work! (I know because I worked with them on commercial installations that I've cared for.)