The Stain is everywhere!

[DerekS]

OK Hi - new here and new-to-pools last summer and battling "The Stain" ever since.

27kgal IG plaster w/stains on walls and some on floor.

Jack's stain kit tells me metals.

I brought C down to 0-.5, pH to about 7 on Sunday and put in, through the course of a few 1/2 applications as recommended, a total of 5lbs ascorbic acid and (3) 32oz bottles of metal seq. and 1-1/2 32oz bottle of 60% Poly Quat.

The few dark (almost black) stains I had have disappeared but the brownish stain all over the sides and bottom hasn't really changed at all.

15min puck-in-a-sock with scrubbing afterward doesn't change stains.

I've added some pics of "The Stain". The third one shows it the best (in sunlight) and also so streaking that has always been there; please excuse the concrete/coping/tile - that was to be fixed "this year" after the stain was fixed "last year"....

HELP!

 

[mbar]

What is your calcium level and cya level? Did you try rubbing some of the ascorbic acid on the stain? You may need to add some more ascorbic acid and put the filter on recirculate overnight. Sometimes if the stain has been there for a long time the ascorbic acid needs more time to work. Looking at the pictures, it really does look like a metal stain to me. Try rubbing some ascorbic acid on the stain and let me know if it takes it away. I have also had success with citric acid this year - it is a lot cheaper than the ascorbic acid - you just need to use a little more of it. Don't worry we can help you get rid of the stain. :-D

 

[DerekS]

Thanks - I've been reading your posts over at ThePoolForum when I found this one I could join...

Anyway:

CYA & Calcium - dunno. I only saw today that I can get the test kit that is similar/the same as was mentioned on the other forum. So I think I might be doing that soon!

No, I didn't rub the ascorbic acid I had on it, but in Jack's Stain ID kit, the "Copper and Scale stuff" fizzed alot and made a nice white spot on the plaster. I did some legwork and found that the "Copper and Scale Stuff" is (mostly?) Ascorbic acid and bought 5lb from one of the websites I read you mention before. Jack's C and S stuff recc's putting in muriatic acid before-hand (abt .5ga/10k); I dunno - maybe that would've helped. Jack does mention that the C and S stuff with Blue stuff sometimes takes a few weeks. I am OK with time, but need to put the $ where it'll work, after a couple months on Blue Stuff only ($$$) and now recent treatment.

Its been on 24/7 since Sunday am (5/17). At first it was on recric, but pollen & stuff from an adjacent tree was being sucked in and recirc'ed, getting stuck in the inlet screen to our Legend II, so I switched to filter (DE).

The stain *might* be a little pale-er today. Maybe not. It's hard to tell (yeah it looks GREAT at night!).

 

[mbar]

It really does seem to be a metal stain. Another thing you can try is to lower the ph to no higher than 7 and add some more sequestering agent - this will lift stain too. I know that the ascorbic acid gets really expensive, so if you want to save some money you can get the citric acid from the chemistry store and try that. It will take more, and it will take more time, but it will get rid of the stain. The ascorbic acid usually works faster, and you need less. It seems that you really had a lot of staining and I think that you need more sequestering agent to keep the metals in solution. I usually use 1 bottle of sequestering agent to 1 lb of ascorbic acid. The sequestering agent will bring down the ph too. Let the ph stay low until all of the stain is gone. Then start to rebalance the water. Remember to bring up the chlorine slowly, while keeping the ph low.

 

[DerekS]

Ok I can check pH and them put more sequesterant in.

Pool has been really clear since I started all this but was cloudy this am - wondering if metals are starting to get sequestered?

Dunno - maybe pool cleaner found an area of 'pool dust' from all the ss brush scrubbing I've been doing. DE filter pressure hasn't changed and I prolly would've seen some of the 'dust' in the cleaner bag.

I am willing to wait for this to clean up, as long as I know that's we're getting somewhere, no matter how slow!

Question - would you let your kids swim in the pool as it is now with ascorbic acid / sequesterant / Poly-quat? Would the lower pH be the a concern? They've been begging...

Thanks for the help!

 

[mbar]

Sometimes the sequestering agent does get the pool a little cloudy. Just make sure you have enough chlorine in the water for the amount of cya you have. You don't want to start an algae bloom. As long as the chlorine is good, then you can let the kids swim. None of the ascorbic, sequestering agent, or algaecide will do any harm. You just want to make sure the water is sanitized before any swimming. If you have a sand or DE filter you can put a chlorine puck in the skimmer basket - it will help to keep the ph down, and add sanitation as well.

 

[DerekS]

Sometimes the sequestering agent does get the pool a little cloudy. Just make sure you have enough chlorine in the water for the amount of cya you have. You don't want to start an algae bloom. As long as the chlorine is good, then you can let the kids swim. None of the ascorbic, sequestering agent, or algaecide will do any harm. You just want to make sure the water is sanitized before any swimming. If you have a sand or DE filter you can put a chlorine puck in the skimmer basket - it will help to keep the ph down, and add sanitation as well.

I am guessing I have no chlorine right now from the ascorbic acid - I am going to prevent algae with the poly-quat for a while until I bring the pool chemistry back up (which might be a while...)

Will the tri-chlor puck work with all the ascorbic acid? Won't it just get eaten up? Or is the idea that it will be sanitizing the water as it passes, but there won't be any FC in the pool?

 

[JasonLion]

The trichlor puck will release chlorine slowly. At first the chlorine will be used up burning off the remaining ascorbic acid. Eventually it will start sanitizing the pool. The point of using a trichlor puck is that it adds chlorine very slowly. It also lowers the PH, which is probably good, and adds CYA, which isn't so good (though one puck won't add enough to really matter). Slow is what you want right now.

 

[DerekS]

The trichlor puck will release chlorine slowly. At first the chlorine will be used up burning off the remaining ascorbic acid. Eventually it will start sanitizing the pool. The point of using a trichlor puck is that it adds chlorine very slowly. It also lowers the PH, which is probably good, and adds CYA, which isn't so good (though one puck won't add enough to really matter). Slow is what you want right now.

OK makes sense - but put in puck even though stain is not completely removed?

Maybe tell the kids the pool is closed until further notice?

 

[mbar]

You don't want to bring the chlorine up until all of the stain is gone - but if you want to swim, then you need to have the pool sanitized. However, the stain will sometimes lift with the sequestering agent if the ph is very low. The way stain is created is that when there are metals in the water, high chlorine along with high ph cause the metals to fall out of solution and land on the surface of the pool. That's why you need to keep enough sequestering agent in the water - so that the metals remain in solution. There is really no way to get the metals completely out of the water except to change the water with water that has no metals. The reason I say to put a puck in the skimmer is that if your ph is high the metals hit the chlorine puck and fall out - they will fall out on the filter first. Chlorine pucks are acidic, so it is a good way to keep the ph down if you have a problem with high ph.

My suggestion if you still have staining is to add more ascorbic or citric acid - more sequestering agent, leave the pool on recirculate until all of the stain is gone, then slowly rebalance the water. Once the water is holding enough chlorine to match your cya, then it is ok to swim. I would rather get it all finished at once than to rebalance now and try to get rid of the rest of the stain later. I just now how persuasive kids could be

 

[DerekS]

Update:

OK, 5 more lbs of ascorbic acid and 5x32oz of Metal Hold added and not much change after 24hrs on re-circ.

pH was <6.8, Cl 0 and Al 40 beforehand.

3min of ascorbic in a sock against the stain did nothing, 30min began to lighten the stain, but not near what Jack's Stain ID kit did when it ID'd a copper/metal stain. That was a bright, white spot.

Since I am fighting algea even with 32oz of poly-quat added about weekly, I think I'll bring the Cl back up and give up on the stain until the kids go to camp and I will either try Jack's Copper stuff ($) + Blue stuff or wait until Fall to paint the pool.

hrrumph.

 

[mbar]

When you did the Jacks Magic stain kit, which one worked on the stain? If the ascorbic acid didn't work right away on the stain, then the stain is something other than iron - perhaps copper I know when I did the stain kit (many years ago) there were three different tests. I don't have any experience with any other stain that does not react with ascorbic acid - maybe you can call Jack's Magic helpline.

It is not worth missing the summer because of some stain - just my opinion Check with Jack's Magic, then balance the water and enjoy the summer. You never know, maybe the high chlorine levels will get rid of the rest of the stain :idea:

 

[DerekS]

Hmm I seem to recall that it was test 2 & 4 - I can't remember.... I do remember a metal stain ID tho..

Anyway, kids are out of school soon and they're anxious. Pool is cloudy and green at the edges (algae), so, cleaned the filter today - this is the second time it's been filled with green and pink goop that wouldn't backwash out - I am guessing algae and metals. Fresh charge of fiber, Cl puck thingy "full on" (gonna get some liq. bleach tomorrow), added 4lb of Baking Soda and we'll see where it goes.

 

[mbar]

Pink goop? It may be pink algae, which is a bacteria - make sure you take the chlorine up to shock (according to your cya) and keep it there checking on it 3x a day bringing it back to shock levels every time. The faster and harder you hit the algae, the faster the water will be ready to swim. You will know that the alage is gone when the chlorine holds overnight. Don't let the chlorine level drop down, or the algae will continue to grow. Good luck

 

[DerekS]

Pink goop? It may be pink algae, which is a bacteria - make sure you take the chlorine up to shock (according to your cya) and keep it there checking on it 3x a day bringing it back to shock levels every time. The faster and harder you hit the algae, the faster the water will be ready to swim. You will know that the alage is gone when the chlorine holds overnight. Don't let the chlorine level drop down, or the algae will continue to grow. Good luck

eww that's not sounding good.

So, OK to shock after the ascorbic since a) it doesn't seem to be doing much, b) pH and alk are low (limiting re-deposit of any metal)?

 

[bass_gas]

Did you get rid of the stain? I have what appears to be the same. (pictures)

Bass_gas

Salt pool
17000 Gal.

 

[DerekS]

no never did. I ran the ascorbic acid treatment twice, but since is is warm out I battled algea - yellow and black - and it didn't seem to reduce the stain. So I just cleaned it up with lots of bleach and have beautiful water now, but still stain. I may run the Jack's magic treatment this winter. Looks like you should try Jack's Stain ID kit to at least know what you are dealing with. I've seen them at pool stores as well as online.

 

[Beez]

Are you certain it is a stain? The reason I ask is because judging strictly by your photos,
your "stain" looks very similar to the condition of my plaster, which is not a stain at all.
Check out these pics:

This one shows my plaster from a distance:
[attachment=1:2qfvcxyg]deep end jets distance.jpg[/attachment:2qfvcxyg]

Here's a close up:[attachment=0:2qfvcxyg]deep end jet turned off.jpg[/attachment:2qfvcxyg]

The discoloration you see in these pics is not a stain, but just old worn out plaster.

Just an idea,
Dave

 

[DerekS]

The discoloration you see in these pics is not a stain, but just old worn out plaster.

Hmm that's the first time I've heard of that; not that I'm doubting you - just sayin'.

Anyway, that looks very similar to what I have (see first post)....

 

[Beez]

The discoloration you see in these pics is not a stain, but just old worn out plaster.

Hmm that's the first time I've heard of that; not that I'm doubting you - just sayin'.

Anyway, that looks very similar to what I have (see first post)....

Have you looked at the stain up close while under water? In my case it's obvious it is not a stain, but where the plaster has gotten really thin and worn away. Looks almost polished...