Fiberglass Pool Off-White Beige Stain / Hamilton Index Question

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Draco1219

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Apr 22, 2016
44
Dallas, PA
Good morning,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to provide assistance I appreciate it. This question is in regards to having a re-occurring off-white/beige metal stain that forms at the water line and down to the floor of the pool.

Some history:

Last year was the first year in which we had the pool and after having it opened, we noticed that after a month or so, we were having this beige/off-white stain on the walls of our fiberglass pool. Since I keep track of my pool readings, I was able to trace it back to the consistent shocking of the pool every other week, and not having any sequestrate in the pool and that it was most likely a copper metal precipitating on the walls during high levels of FC. After a lot of back and forth, and a lot of learning on this forum, I found out that since I was using the 3 inch pucks that my CYA was well over 100. My PH was always low, around 7.2 and my CYA was high, and because of this, my 2-3 PPM of FC was never effective of keeping my pool clear and not cloudy. (Hence the shocking). After learning about this, I did an Ascorbic Acid treatment and then roughly drained half of my pool and refilled. This lowered my CYA down to around 50, and with the use of "No Mor Problems", and switching to bleach as my source of chlorine, was reduce the shocking of my pool to maybe once over the remaining 2-3 months of the season.. The stains eventually returned, but they weren't as dark and it took much much longer... At that point I simply did another ascorbic acid treatment, and they cleared up for another month.

In addition, I came across the "Hamilton Index" on the United Chemical website and switched over to this balancing, which I am hoping, aided in the reduction of staining. (I kept my CH around 200, my TA around 95 and my PH around 7.8).

This year:

After much research, I made the switch to a SWG. When I opened the pool the pool was green and dirty, but absolutely no stains. After clearing the water, my PH was around 8.4, in which case I adjusted down to my 7.8 and brought my TA up to the 95 range. My pool stayed clear (with the cooler weather) and absolutely no staining. I was consistently using "No Mor Problems" weekly, which as you know, made it absolutely difficult to determine what my FC level was. When I started the season I had my SWG set at a 12 Hour Cycle at roughly 40%. This worked well, but the pool water was in the 60-70 degree range. After I got back from vacation, the weather warmed up considerably and we started heating the pool to around 82 degrees. Since I was still unable to get a FC reading with the No Mor Problems, I wanted to systematically determine what the FC levels were that I was adding to the pool daily.

After doing some research, I found that my Hayward Aquarite was able to produce around .60 Lbs of Chlorine Gas per day on a 24 hour, 100% max output. After knowing this, I found that with my 12 Hour cycle I should have had my output set at 100% (adding roughly 3 PPM FC per day). During this time, I took my pool water to the pool store, and the guy (who sounded knowledgeable) said that I should have kept my PH around 7.4, TA at 80, and I needed to raise my CH to 250-300. After this discussion, I added in CH to bring it to 300 PPM and then started maintaining my PH at 7.4.

After all of these adjustments, within 4 days I started seeing the stains coming back. I am not sure if it was the FC going too high (the 3PPM being added daily building up), or if was the lower PH, or if it was the higher CH, but the stains started coming back. Eventually the light beige stain around the walls turns the water from a nice blue to an off-blue/green, and when you move the water around you are able to see the stains on the wall.

With that being said, I am moving back to the Index I used last year which produced the best results, but I wanted to get buy-in since it deviates slightly from what TFP says is ideal.

The "Hamilton Index" How to Balance United Chemical Corp worked well for me, and I'd like to adjust and maintain my levels at:

White Fiberglass
Gallons: 13,000
CH: 200
TA: 95
PH: 7.8-8.0
CYA: 70
FC: 1.0 PPM
SWG T-Cell 3: 50% at 12 Hours

In addition, I intend to figure out exactly what my FC is at a 50% setting and then adjust for 1.0 FC and then continue to use the "No Mor Problems" weekly.

I am also adding a weekly maintenance dose of "ProTeam Metal Magic" as a sequestrate (even though I've never been able to get a positive metal reading in my pool).

I am also going to try and prevent having to shock my pool at all.



Input:

If anyone has had this issue before, or can weigh in on it, or can validate or invalidate my approach, I'd greatly appreciate it. It has been unbelievable frustrating for me as a pool owner. Especially since we only can really use the pool June, July, and August in NE PA.

Again, thanks for your time, I really appreciate it!

Matt
 
Texas Splash said:
Hello Matt. Rather than try to reinvent the wheel on what could be a lengthy discussion, I wanted to pass along these two previous threads related to your question:
Polyquat 60 vs (Sodium Bromide))
Hamilton vs. Langelier Index? What's Really The Difference?

I would read those and you'll get a good idea of how TFP views the No More Problems products and/or the Hamilton Index methodology of pool management. Have a great day.
Click to expand...

Very much appreciated, thanks again. I'll read through and will respond back with any questions.
 
Texas Splash said:
Hello Matt. Rather than try to reinvent the wheel on what could be a lengthy discussion, I wanted to pass along these two previous threads related to your question:
Polyquat 60 vs (Sodium Bromide))
Hamilton vs. Langelier Index? What's Really The Difference?

I would read those and you'll get a good idea of how TFP views the No More Problems products and/or the Hamilton Index methodology of pool management. Have a great day.
Click to expand...

Thanks again! I read through the both, and will be using the PolyQuat 60 versus the No Mor Problems. It's extremely difficult to know how much chlorine I have in my pool with the NMP, and because of the staining, I have no idea if my SWG setting is contibuting to too much chlorine oxiding the metals.


With that being said, when I noticed staining, I increased my CH from 175 to 250, and upped my TA from 70 to 95, and then dropped my PH, and upped my SWG output to 100% over the 12 hour cycle. In order to prevent the staining in the future, what would you recommend I do?
 
Hi everyone,

It seems the staining just keeps coming back. A week ago I added in 1.5Lb of Ascorbic Acid and all of the stains were lifted. I then added 16oz of Metal Magic from ProTeam. I kept my levels at:

Gallons: 13,000
CH: 200
TA: 85
PH: 7.6
CYA: 70
FC: 1.0 PPM

I did not shock my pool at all.

After 6-7 days the same surface staining (light beige starting at the water line and going down to the floor. If the water level moves (jumping in the pool, cleaning etc,) you can see a solid off-white beige stain. This turns the pool a greenish blue color and it's obviously visible.

I am fairly certain this is most likely a metal stain since the ascorbic acid removes it and a chlorine puck does not. I cannot think of anything else to try. At first I thought it was shocking that caused the metals to deposit, but I haven't shocked at all in a month.

I had my water tested and there aren't any metals (iron, copper, etc). In addition, I have a CuLator bag in the skimmer basket and 16oz of Metal Magic (sequestrant). Is it possible something else is causing this?

Also, would switching from a sand to cartridge filter help filter out some of the crystallized metals from the Metal Magic?
 
Hi Everyone,

Over the last three days I finally wanted to solve the issue with my off-white/beige stain all in my fiberglass pool and I proceeded to buying "Metal Trap 25K" and then subsequently drained about 90% of my fiberglass pool. Over the next day I slowly filled the pool back filtering everything through Metal Trap.

Yesterday morning the pool was filled and I proceeded to adding my initial dose of PolyQuat 60 and slowly raised the FC to 3PPM. In addition, I added a quart of Jack's The Purple Stuff just in case.

This morning I woke up and the pool water was a tea green, and the original staining that I was hoping to eliminate returned but MUCH worse. Worse enough to make the pool look green. Now, instead of a light yellow stain it's now dark yellow bordering on a light brown.

I am beside myself and don't know what to do. Somehow I made it worse by draining and refilling the pool, even though I filtered it through Metal Trap.

The ODD thing is, is that my fill water is from the municipal which didn't have any trace metals..

At this point I wish I could rewind time 3 days ago and just live with the stain, but instead, now it's worse.. I spent money on the chemicals to rebalance, the water to refill, the Metal Trap, the 8 bags of salt..

All I know is the pool was fine for the first day when the FC was < 1. I kept the PH at roughly 7.2-7.4 and as soon as my FC went over 3PPM or so the stains came back with a vengeance.

Does anyone have any other ideas what I can do? I'm desperate at this point.

Thanks everyone!
 
Okay Matt, after re-reading everything, let's back-up a a bit. I'd like to confirm a few things and reiterate some others to see if we're seeing things the same way:
- What test kit are you using to test your water? Please add that and anything else related to your pool in your signature. It makes for quick reference as your thread lengthens. You can click EDIT YOUR SIGNATURE. It will help us later. This link may also help you: Pool School - Read This BEFORE You Post.
- After your last 90% drain, it would seem that regardless of what the locals are saying, there are metals in that water. That's the only way water will change so abruptly after adding chlorine. Even in your case with a metal trap, Poly-60, Purple Stuff, and with a low FC dosage, there must still be some significant metal in that water source to react like that.
- We know that in general, metal-filled water reacts less when the FC and pH are lower. Of course the higher the metal content, the trickier that gets, but that's a basic guideline. So I would still try to keep the pH in the low 7s (7.2-7.4), and FC as low as possible based on your CYA. I would not adjust TA higher because that will only allow your pH to rise faster. You could let your TA sink down to around 50-60 which is where mine is.
- Please post a full set of water results, and perhaps upload a pic as well if you don't mind. Have you tried linking your photos from Photobucket? That's what many of us do here on TFP. Upload your pics to Photobucket (free), then copy & paste the IMG code for that pic from Photobucket to your TFP post. Works great.

So let's go over all of this and regroup from there to try and help you okay.
 
Texas Splash said:
Okay Matt, after re-reading everything, let's back-up a a bit. I'd like to confirm a few things and reiterate some others to see if we're seeing things the same way:
- What test kit are you using to test your water? Please add that and anything else related to your pool in your signature. It makes for quick reference as your thread lengthens. You can click EDIT YOUR SIGNATURE. It will help us later. This link may also help you: Pool School - Read This BEFORE You Post.
- After your last 90% drain, it would seem that regardless of what the locals are saying, there are metals in that water. That's the only way water will change so abruptly after adding chlorine. Even in your case with a metal trap, Poly-60, Purple Stuff, and with a low FC dosage, there must still be some significant metal in that water source to react like that.
- We know that in general, metal-filled water reacts less when the FC and pH are lower. Of course the higher the metal content, the trickier that gets, but that's a basic guideline. So I would still try to keep the pH in the low 7s (7.2-7.4), and FC as low as possible based on your CYA. I would not adjust TA higher because that will only allow your pH to rise faster. You could let your TA sink down to around 50-60 which is where mine is.
- Please post a full set of water results, and perhaps upload a pic as well if you don't mind. Have you tried linking your photos from Photobucket? That's what many of us do here on TFP. Upload your pics to Photobucket (free), then copy & paste the IMG code for that pic from Photobucket to your TFP post. Works great.

So let's go over all of this and regroup from there to try and help you okay.
Click to expand...

Hey Texas Splash,

Thanks again for taking the time to help, I appreciate it. It's nice to see such a great community of people always willing to help... Especially when you feel like you've run out of options.

I've updated my signature to include all of the details.

Please see the responses to your questions, in addition, some extra questions of mine.

Current Levels:

White Fiberglass
Gallons: 13,000
CH: 175
TA: 95
PH: 7.2
CYA: 45
FC: 1.0 PPM
SWG T-Cell 15: 35% at 12 Hours Seems to produce roughly 2.5 PPM of FC each day.

- I am using the Taylor K-2006, with refills from TFTestKits.
- I agree with the metals from the fill water. There's NO other explanation other than it came from the fill water. I am really unhappy with the fact that The Metal Trap completely failed at getting the iron out of the fill water.
- I am looking to follow the Hamilton Index which is in line with your recommendation of LOW TA and a Higher PH. Which is also in line with what TFP says (TA 60-80 and PH 7.5 to 7.8). Here's the thing, the iron precipitated out of the water at all levels of PH. When I filled the water, my PH was under 7.2 and stayed under even until the next day when my pool was green. This leads me to believe, it's only my FC which causes the staining, NOT low or high PH. This is one variable I was happy to solve.


This morning after I saw the pool, and after I rocked and cried myself back to sleep in the corner, I dumped ANOTHER bottle of Jack's Purple Stuff. (I added one bottle after the fill and another bottle this morning). The water within hours went back to crystal clear blue, and the stains are about 80% lifted. I am somewhat happy about this, since it means if I can't get to the bottom of this and finally get all the metals out of the pool, I can atleast buy stock in Jack's and stock up on it. It's horribly expensive, but as my wife has been telling me, she rather see me spend the money than to continue to be stressed about it... But like all problems in my life, I hate when I can't find an answer, and all I feel like I am doing is putting a bandaid on it. It's making it VERY difficult for me to enjoy my pool.


Here's a couple of questions I have:

- I bought a Hayward C500 Cartridge filter this morning for 200$ off of Amazon. My local pool company suggested using it as an auxiliary filter to hook up to the return line and have it run to see if it collects any iron/turns brown. I think this may work since when the water turned green, my filter sock was BROWN. Have you heard about this working?
- If the above is true, would I need to "break" the bond that the Jack's sequestrant has on the iron in order to even filter it out, or will it filter out the particles of iron already bound up by Jack's Purple Stuff? If not, after I have the cartridge filter on, should I shock the pool, dropping the metal out of suspension?
- I read an article about using some kind of floc to bond with the metal and then vacuum out to waste... but I also know the TFP community is very much against flocs and clarifiers.
- Since I cannot replace my water with iron free water (apparently), what's my best way at getting the iron out of the pool? Do you think this auxiliary cartridge filter, along with the Jack's will work over time?
- Lastly, if raising my FC causes the issue, how do I go about shocking my pool? Do I have to dump another bottle of Jack's in prior to shocking? I was using No Mor Problems for a while which helped me with my need to shock the pool (I did not have to shock the pool at all this year), but NMP never allowed me to get a FC reading, so I had no idea where my SWG was at when it came to chlorine production. I have since switched over to PolyQuat 60 which I put in weekly.

Thank you again for your help with this.. I really appreciate yours, and anyone else insight.

Thanks!

Matt
 
Matt, no doubt managing the iron is tricky, and your metal content must be up there. Here's a couple things about your notes:
- It is imperative to keep the water algae-free and at a point where you can use the lowest FC level possible. Higher FC means more chance of metal reactions.
- Yes, some people will actually let the FC rise enough to allow the metal to "precipitate out" and then try to physically trap as much of it as they can. If you do some searches here, you'll see threads where people placed paper towels in the skimmer, or other types of cotton or padding material. It actually does quite well while the metal is suspended in the water. Once you bind the metal (iron) with a sequestrant, that option goes away until the sequestrant wears-off and/or the FC gets too high.
- I don't recall the science in it, but a lower pH seems to be better overall for metal filled water, so I'd try to keep it in that 7.5 or slightly below zone.
- I don't recall the cartridge filter concept, but while the metal is suspended, use whatever you can to grab as much metal as you can for sure.
- The only other option if you might have to consider is trucking-in fresh water. Many people do that. Even if you could only get half delivered, remember that's half the metal content which may result in less sequestrant, etc. Because over time with evaporation, you'll probably be forced to use your regular hose to refill which has more iron (again).

I'm glad you're seeing some progress. Owners who battle metals begin to learn a new customized pool chemistry world for their pool, and you seem to be doing the same with yours. But again, keep the algae away because if you do have to SLAM, all bets are off and the FC "must" be increased to kill the algae. That means water color changes and possible staining, along with previous sequestrant being exhausted and requiring replacement once the SLAM is over.

Keep us posted and we'll watch for updates or try to pass along any more tips to help you. Have a nice evening.
 

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Thanks again for your quick reply!

Just a couple of follow ups.

While the metal is suspended with the sequestrant, can I still filter it out with the cartridge filter? I am assuming the answer is yes, since the bottle of Jack's Purple does say REMOVE metal from the water. However, using a paper towel/cotton shirt/etc. you would have to precipitate the metals out right?

Secondly, I know a lot of people recommend bumping CYA up to 60-70 for SWG and keeping the FC a little higher 4-5, this takes a load off of your SWG, but it seems for me that I should probably keep the CYA a little lower (30-40) and keep the FC at the lowest end of that spectrum... Knowing it'll make my SWG work a little harder?

I thought about the water truck option, but the problem is they are getting their water from the same supply I am.. The local municipality. I may try and call one from further away and have them do it next Spring. If I drain the pool again, I'm afraid I'll end up with more iron and most likely divorced haha. (But hey I can leave her with the house and the iron problem!).


I am hoping you say that I can still filter out the sequestered iron through my auxiliary cartridge filter. If so, I'll continue with the Jack's Purple through the rest of the year and let it filter and then see where I end up next Spring.


Thanks and have a great Sunday!
 
About your recent questions:
- Once the metal is bonded with the sequestrant, I don't believe you'll see the best filtering results as if it was still precipitated-out in it's full glory. You can still try, but that's the whole reason for the sequestrant is to keep it (iron) from showing, discoloring the water, and staining.
- Having an SWG is actually ideal in your situation because the higher CYA allows your SWG to work more efficiently at a relatively low FC compared to non-SWG pools. Chlorine is dispensed continuously throughout the day as opposed to manual one-time dumps in higher concentrations.
- Water truck from the same source? :hammer: Yes, I suppose that's the kind of luck to expect. ha ha.

Still, keep doing the best you can and experiment with different absorbent materials in your skimmer. Here is the TFP link you might like to review:
Pool School - Metals in the Water and Metal Stains

- - - Updated - - -

Also take a look at these:
A Tale of Two Filters... and Ugly, Rusty Water.
Just got Taylor-2006 Test Kit. Want to verify what I should add.
Results of first TF-100 test ran on fill water - Page 2
Green water and low ph
 
Texas Splash said:
About your recent questions:
- Once the metal is bonded with the sequestrant, I don't believe you'll see the best filtering results as if it was still precipitated-out in it's full glory. You can still try, but that's the whole reason for the sequestrant is to keep it (iron) from showing, discoloring the water, and staining.
- Having an SWG is actually ideal in your situation because the higher CYA allows your SWG to work more efficiently at a relatively low FC compared to non-SWG pools. Chlorine is dispensed continuously throughout the day as opposed to manual one-time dumps in higher concentrations.
- Water truck from the same source? :hammer: Yes, I suppose that's the kind of luck to expect. ha ha.

Still, keep doing the best you can and experiment with different absorbent materials in your skimmer. Here is the TFP link you might like to review:
Pool School - Metals in the Water and Metal Stains

- - - Updated - - -

Also take a look at these:
A Tale of Two Filters... and Ugly, Rusty Water.
Just got Taylor-2006 Test Kit. Want to verify what I should add.
Results of first TF-100 test ran on fill water - Page 2
Green water and low ph
Click to expand...

Thanks again! I'm at around 45 CYA right now, meaning I'm going to try and set my SWG to run around 3FC at all times. I'll try and monitor to make sure it does not go above.

Also, I came across this other product that is put out by the same company that makes Metal Trap (which didn't go **** for me by the way) called "Pool Refresh". It says it's like a floc in the sense that it bonds with the metal ions and makes them larger and then clouds the pool so you can visually see the particles and they can be vacuumed out.

Do you think I should give this a try? It's roughly 60$ to do it, and I was thinking about doing it more towards the end of the season so we wont be using the pool as much.

Totaltrap Pool Refresh All-In-One Metal and Phosphate Remover | Hydropure Technologies

I am hoping that if I use this, and run my auxilary cartridge filter and sand filter I may be able to actually filter it out.
 
Draco1219 said:
Thanks again! I'm at around 45 CYA right now, meaning I'm going to try and set my SWG to run around 3FC at all times. I'll try and monitor to make sure it does not go above.

Also, I came across this other product that is put out by the same company that makes Metal Trap (which didn't go **** for me by the way) called "Pool Refresh". It says it's like a floc in the sense that it bonds with the metal ions and makes them larger and then clouds the pool so you can visually see the particles and they can be vacuumed out.

Do you think I should give this a try? It's roughly 60$ to do it, and I was thinking about doing it more towards the end of the season so we wont be using the pool as much.

Totaltrap Pool Refresh All-In-One Metal and Phosphate Remover | Hydropure Technologies

I am hoping that if I use this, and run my auxilary cartridge filter and sand filter I may be able to actually filter it out.
Click to expand...

One last question, when the sequestrant starts to wear off I may just shock the pool and try and put the paper towels/poly fill in the skimmer.

I was reading through the forum and came across this thing called a Slime Bag which supposedly will filter down to 1 micron. I just cancelled my Amazon order for the Hayward cartridge filter. For the purpose of filtering out the iron when it finally plates out, would the Slime Bag work better? At this point, money is not a factor since I really want this solved once and for all.-
 
pooldv said:
Yes, some folks here have used the slime bag to filter it out.
Click to expand...

Cool thanks!

By the way, if the stains are yellow/light brown across the entire pool and the water is green when chlorine is added, that most likely is iron right? How do I know if its copper?

All tests in my pool water come back negative for any metals.. Probably because of the sequesterant right?
 
Correct. Once water is mixed with a sequestrant or chlorine it will skew the metal tests. It's usually best to test the water from the source before it gets mixed in the pool. Iron can fluctuate between brown to green colors depending upon the concentration. Copper will have a greenish/blue emerald look to it. It's not very common to have copper in source water. Copper is usually added to pool via pool store products like algaecides, or if the pH was allowed to drop (corrosion) in a pool that had copper plumbing (i.e. heater). Iron is the most common from well, rural, or some city water sources. If you add some paper towels to the skimmer, you'll know if it's iron fairly soon as the towels will begin to turn brown in several hours. There are some test kits available on the market, but they tend to get expensive fairly quickly.
 
Texas Splash said:
Correct. Once water is mixed with a sequestrant or chlorine it will skew the metal tests. It's usually best to test the water from the source before it gets mixed in the pool. Iron can fluctuate between brown to green colors depending upon the concentration. Copper will have a greenish/blue emerald look to it. It's not very common to have copper in source water. Copper is usually added to pool via pool store products like algaecides, or if the pH was allowed to drop (corrosion) in a pool that had copper plumbing (i.e. heater). Iron is the most common from well, rural, or some city water sources. If you add some paper towels to the skimmer, you'll know if it's iron fairly soon as the towels will begin to turn brown in several hours. There are some test kits available on the market, but they tend to get expensive fairly quickly.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I really think it's iron. The night that my pool went from clear blue to green with light yellow staining, the skimmer sock was brown and I was able to hose it off.

Since this was a fresh fill, I am thinking it is the iron for sure. Also the stains react very well with Ascorbic Acid which I heard is usually a good indicator that it's iron versus copper which doesn't react as well, or as quickly.

I am hoping these two bottles of Jack's Purple lasts atleast 2 weeks, this way I can just buy a few more to get me to September and then try and shock/clear the pool. My wife stops swimming when the weather gets colder so it may be a good time for me to try and get the iron out then when no one wants to use the pool.

I'll be sure to post pictures.
 
Sigh... The second bottle of Jack's Purple Stuff I put in on Saturday is starting to fade.. The yellow is coming back and the water is a tinge green (it may look green most likely from the yellow stain though.)

Really not quite sure what to do at this point.. a pound of Ascorbic Acid is a heck of a lot cheaper than a bottle of Jack's Purple Stuff... do I maybe not have enough sequestrant in the water? Right now I have 2 quarts (bottles) of it for a 13K pool.

I have a Slime Bag on order, and I rigged up a contraption to have a return line going to a garden hose and going into the Metal Trap now.

Do you think I should just let it plate/precipitate out and just run it with the metal trap and slime bag?

Once this happens, and stains form.. Can the metaltrap/slime bag even pull the stains off the wall? I'm hoping that if the Slime Bag and Metal Trap work and start to remove the iron from the water, that maybe the irons which are now stains on the fiberglass will start to come off as a well and go back into solution.

Really don't know what to do at this point.
 
Short of replacing the water, it will boil-down to physical trapping then sequestrant use. If you try to let it precipitate-out, just remember it can stain. Once stains occur, you can try localized treatments if small. Larger ones would require an ascorbic acid treatment. All of that gets tricky in the methodology, sequence, and chemistry level, but many, many pool owners have done it. You're beginning to see the trial & error of manipulating FC, pH, and store-bought chemical products. It's a bit of a chess game now.
 

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