Fiberglass Pool Off-White Beige Stain / Hamilton Index Question

Short of replacing the water, it will boil-down to physical trapping then sequestrant use. If you try to let it precipitate-out, just remember it can stain. Once stains occur, you can try localized treatments if small. Larger ones would require an ascorbic acid treatment. All of that gets tricky in the methodology, sequence, and chemistry level, but many, many pool owners have done it. You're beginning to see the trial & error of manipulating FC, pH, and store-bought chemical products. It's a bit of a chess game now.


The problem is, the first thing I notice when the sequestrant is fading is the yellow stain over the ENTIRE pool surface. Then the water goes green (dont know if its green by itself or from the yellow tinge/stain).



One question, right now I have my CYA at 45, which means I should have my FC at 2-3.

According to TFP for a SWG pool I should have my CYA at 70-80. Which means I should have my FC at 4-11.

My question is, would metals precipitate at a FC based on your CYA? If having CYA at 45 and FC at 2-3 has the SAME affect as CYA at 75 and FC at 4-11, then I can safely boost my CYA/FC.
 
You will be just as good at a CYA of 70 because that higher CYA is designed specifically for your SWG's FC production. Unlike me for example (manual dosage of bleach each evening), where I add a one-time dose of bleach, your SWG continuously produces FC slowly as the pump is running throughout the day. It's less in dosage but more consistent throughout the day. Overall the FC is about the same. A non-SWG pool at a CYA of 50 has a minimum FC of 4, while a SWG pool with a CYA of 70 has a minimum of 3. Each target zone is 1 FC less as well. Overall very close. You should still adjust your CYA (70) and SWG output to stay in your FC range of 4-5 to avoid algae. From there, the metal/chlorine combination is managed physically and chemically based on your pool's needs.
 
Good morning, Draco. I am just catching up with your thread as ive been a bit sidelined lately.. Since you're in full-on-solve mode this season, i will share ideas with you as needed over the next little while - but know that many of my comments here are best categorized as experimental ;)

Most pressing to my mind is to try to identify for certain the source and confirm iron, because otherwise, were flying a bit blind on solutions (apart from sequestering.)

First off, I think its worth getting at least the Lamotte Iron/copper instatest kit so that you can attempt to check "free" iron ppm as it falls out of solution and measure your tap water. Its fairly inexpensive. We should also check to see if you have a copper reading at all. There are beefier metal test kits that will read better, bu this would get you started.

Do you have a pool heater? If so, add your make and model so we know if the exchanger is copper.

Now, just a couple of things that might help going forward...first off, just so you know, any filter, and for that matter, any sequestrant product, is effective in proportion to the metal load it must treat. So for example, someone who once tested a prefresh filter at a slow flo rate removed 1.4 ppm of two...but .6 ppm still stains. Which is why filtering alone is often never enough in high iron loads. Metal trap uses green sand, and is fairly expensive IMHO, and only rated for a certain number of gallons, after which it is spent. The green sand itself also contains magnesium, and right, wrong or irrational, I never used it for fear of somehow loading any extra mag in my water, as my well also has mag ;)

It is possible, depending on which size, that yours was "spent" before you were filled entirely. But its also possible that trace iron in your salt, a highly galvanic condition in swg, etc. is playing into the equation, though this might be controversial.

For oxidized metal, I've seen good reports on the slime bag, because it goes down to 1 micron. 1 micron sized filters are best at getting more iron out...but none will get all, just so you know. For exampe, I now use only softened water plumbed to the pool spigot...that gets me from 2 ppm to .5. Then I use a pre filter crafted from a 10" Pentek housing with 1 micron disposable filter. That gets me down to about .2ish these days...but I'm swg and I still use Jacks...just much less of it than I used to :)

Jacks techs believe that some sequestered metal will in fact be filtered out if your calcium rate is at 200, btw. I cannot prove this is true, but I am going to tell you later about a couple of extreme calcium-related strategies that I want you to research carefully and try at your own risk later in the season and only if you're comfortable -- and I will get you in contact with someone who has actually done the calcium treatment after I pm that poster for permission ;)

But first, lets try to rule out any exacerbating phenom, which can be tricky, because these things may or may not be related to your metal load, but I'm trying to get a full picture based on other metal threads over a few years ;)

For example, can you confirm a) that your swg is bonded (you'll see bare copper bond wire connected to your equipment) and b) that there's no other metal parts corroding into the pool, eg ladder, light, etc. and c) that if you have a heater, there are no signs of corrosion at the heat exchanger (remove panel and look for any sign of small drip line that has turned green on the sides.) and d) whether or not you had a sacrificial anode installed with the swg

Try to test or get your source water tested for both iron and copper.

Once we've checked all these things, I will share two highly experimental aproaches to ultimate metal reduction ...one involving a few weeks or careful steps to use cacium as a removal agent, and the other using specifically alum floc IF you have a multiport valve on your sand filter and can filter to waste after a manual vac. I've a bit of experimental experience with the latter.

In the mean time, give the pool as much jacks as it needs to stay clear...high load levels require high sequestrant levels. Eg. I once did a 5 bottle treatment with Metal Magic on my 23k gallon pool and it actually lifted stains as well as sequestered the metal.
 
Hi Swampwoman,

Thanks again for your willingness to help (along with Texas Splash), I appreciate it!

Let me just answer some of your questions so you have all of the information.

1) I have a brand new Hayward H250FDN which I believe does not have a copper core.
2) The metal began to precipitate out and stain worse than after within ONE day from filling. I had the heater on bypass during this time and we have no rain (no run off). This leads me to believe that the metal was FROM the fill water only and no other external source.
3) The SWG system is brand new and is bonded.
4) I removed all metal from the pool. The one ladder that went into the deep end I had removed since my son loves to constantly get out of the pool with it. No ladders are in the pool at all/nor any metal components.
5) I'm pretty sure I was below the maximum fill for both my metal traps. The first one I bought was a 10K one I was going to initially use for fill only. I calculated the flow rate and determined I was at around 9,000 gallons before stopping. My second Metal Trap is a 25K and used it to finish the rest of the fill, leaving me with 20K gallons to spare (I am now filtering the water back through it).
6) I bought the Slim Bag and am going to pre-filter my water through it now when topping off.. I'll clamp it down and just fill very slowly. I think this should help new water right?
7) I did not have my water tested immediately prior to filling my pool, but tests a few weeks ago showed very very small amount of copper (0.1) and iron at (0.3). When I had my water tested in my pool after filling and BEFORE balancing, it showed 0 copper and 0.3 iron. However, this was AFTER I added one bottle of Jack's Purple.
8) Thanks for the suggestion about the iron/copper test kit! I am looking to see if I can find one.
9) Based on the color of the stain and how the stains react to the Ascorbic Acid, and the trace amounts of unsequestered iron the pool is showing, I am taking a fairly logical/educated guess that it is iron causing the issue. The "green" of the water I believe is most likely the sun hitting the pool and reflecting off of the white fiberglass with the yellow staining, making the Blue + Yellow appear as green... (Still a guess).
10) I have a multiport and can discharge to waste for the floccing treatment.

I am glad that the Jack's Purple DOES lift the stains and keep the metal sequestered, versus the Ascorbic Acid that is just lifting the stains and messing up my FC and PH. The problem is, the Jack's is about 5X more expensive per treatment than the AA and seems to only last as long.

Thanks again I am open to try anything at this point. Right now I have the water coming out of my return and then into my Metal Trap on one of the returns. Once that is spent I am going to attach the Slime Bag and see if that helps any.

I am open to trying the Alum Floc, but most likely later this September so I can work on the pool without having to worry about the wife and kids looking to use it.

Thanks again for all yours/everyone's input!

- - - Updated - - -

You will be just as good at a CYA of 70 because that higher CYA is designed specifically for your SWG's FC production. Unlike me for example (manual dosage of bleach each evening), where I add a one-time dose of bleach, your SWG continuously produces FC slowly as the pump is running throughout the day. It's less in dosage but more consistent throughout the day. Overall the FC is about the same. A non-SWG pool at a CYA of 50 has a minimum FC of 4, while a SWG pool with a CYA of 70 has a minimum of 3. Each target zone is 1 FC less as well. Overall very close. You should still adjust your CYA (70) and SWG output to stay in your FC range of 4-5 to avoid algae. From there, the metal/chlorine combination is managed physically and chemically based on your pool's needs.

Thanks Texas Splash! So just to summarize, raising my FC with a higher CYA for my SWG will NOT precipitate the metals out faster than a lower FC at a lower CYA, correct?
 
I am late to this thread and have only skimmed it but here are some thoughts on the iron (and it IS iron) in your pool.

1. It comes from your fill water. You can never rid yourself of it because your fill has iron content. (that assumes that your initial fill is from the same source)

2. Even using various schemes to trap or filter out the iron after it precipitates in your pool are largely futile. Those filters, traps, etc don't work very well and even if they did, you are refilling with iron laden water.

3. sequestrants work but are limited. They soon wear out and need to be replenished constantly to stay effective.

4. By far, the best iron control is pH. Iron likes to precipitate out when pH is up above 7.5 with pH of 8.0 being an absolute danger zone. Conversely a pool kept at pH of 7.0 or 7.2 almost never precipitates iron. I didn't see a discussion on the importance of pH in the above post but I skimmed them and may have missed it.

The takeaway on all this is you will always have iron in your pool unless you can find an iron-free refill source. Controlling your pH and keeping it on the very low end of acceptable will give you the most success. It is easy to do and very cheap.
 
I am late to this thread and have only skimmed it but here are some thoughts on the iron (and it IS iron) in your pool.

1. It comes from your fill water. You can never rid yourself of it because your fill has iron content. (that assumes that your initial fill is from the same source)

2. Even using various schemes to trap or filter out the iron after it precipitates in your pool are largely futile. Those filters, traps, etc don't work very well and even if they did, you are refilling with iron laden water.

3. sequestrants work but are limited. They soon wear out and need to be replenished constantly to stay effective.

4. By far, the best iron control is pH. Iron likes to precipitate out when pH is up above 7.5 with pH of 8.0 being an absolute danger zone. Conversely a pool kept at pH of 7.0 or 7.2 almost never precipitates iron. I didn't see a discussion on the importance of pH in the above post but I skimmed them and may have missed it.

The takeaway on all this is you will always have iron in your pool unless you can find an iron-free refill source. Controlling your pH and keeping it on the very low end of acceptable will give you the most success. It is easy to do and very cheap.

Thanks for your input I appreciate it.. It is definitely iron.. My skimmer sock was light brown and water didn't wash it out, only some dissolved ascorbic acid bath worked to remove it from the sock.

Being that my fill source has iron in it, how can I go about removing it before going into the pool? Would a 1 micron filter work at all in removing it?

As far as keeping the PH that low, would I need to up my CH in order to compensate?

Currently I have 175 CH and my TA around 90. With a PH of 7.0 this puts my saturation index around .65. Does it even matter with the fiberglass pool?

Also, when I opened my pool this year my PH was like 8.3+ and I had 0 stains.. When I started shocking and bringing up the chlorine is when it started to show.

I would LOVE for the PH to work for me independent of the chlorine (muriatic acid is helluva cheaper than everything else I'm doing).
 
Now that Swampwoman (SW) has chimed-in, I'm going to take more of a backseat to watch more of the advise, but in general, I would think the CYA of 70 should still be a good thing (with corresponding FC) to keep your water sanitized. For the CH issue, as Dave noted and I think I said earlier, the lower pH tends to work better in controlling metals. I think you said your heater does not container copper, so corrosion in the heater shouldn't be an issue. Most FB pools today do not have calcium carbonate fillers, so dropping a little low on the CSI scale should not be an issue. As long as you have some CH available it might help to reduce staining though. SW is our resident metals expert, so I'll let her speak more to you about the pre-filtering and chemical options you asked about. Hang in there, we'll help you get things under control.
 
I'm 100% with Dave on lowering the ph to 7.2 -- I realized after I got to work that I hadn't included that in my long q ;)

Thanks for answers to my dx questions ;) Your heater is cupro-nckle i believe and i agre its not the source in this case.

For the moment, I believe you will want to run your cya at 70 and your FC in TFP range so that your water is sanitary and then adjust your ph accordingly. My sequestered water runs .2-.3 ppm under these conditions and with Jacks purple weekly top up avoids much staining...though my liner is not white.

Your csi with your current ch should be a bit negative, which should help.

With .3 iron after sequestering and filtering, I'm betting your source load is higher like mine (2 ppm raw well). If you give me a few days, I can run a test through my filter set up on raw well and let you know how much gets through but I'll have to make a few fitting adjustments so it might be a weekend experiment ;)

Do you happen to have a whole house water softener?
 
Now that Swampwoman (SW) has chimed-in, I'm going to take more of a backseat to watch more of the advise, but in general, I would think the CYA of 70 should still be a good thing (with corresponding FC) to keep your water sanitized. For the CH issue, as Dave noted and I think I said earlier, the lower pH tends to work better in controlling metals. I think you said your heater does not container copper, so corrosion in the heater shouldn't be an issue. Most FB pools today do not have calcium carbonate fillers, so dropping a little low on the CSI scale should not be an issue. As long as you have some CH available it might help to reduce staining though. SW is our resident metals expert, so I'll let her speak more to you about the pre-filtering and chemical options you asked about. Hang in there, we'll help you get things under control.


Thanks again! Right now I have my CH at 175... I have plenty of Calcium that I can add to the pool to raise it.

Should I raise my CH to around 250 and then bring my PH around 7.0 and keep it there?

I was going to follow the Hamilton Index (Low CH, TA, and High PH) but if Iron precipitates and stains at a higher PH above 7.5 then I will gladly dump money into acid and keep the PH around 7.
 
I'm 100% with Dave on lowering the ph to 7.2 -- I realized after I got to work that I hadn't included that in my long q ;)

Thanks for answers to my dx questions ;) Your heater is cupro-nckle i believe and i agre its not the source in this case.

For the moment, I believe you will want to run your cya at 70 and your FC in TFP range so that your water is sanitary and then adjust your ph accordingly. My sequestered water runs .2-.3 ppm under these conditions and with Jacks purple weekly top up avoids much staining...though my liner is not white.

Your csi with your current ch should be a bit negative, which should help.

With .3 iron after sequestering and filtering, I'm betting your source load is higher like mine (2 ppm raw well). If you give me a few days, I can run a test through my filter set up on raw well and let you know how much gets through but I'll have to make a few fitting adjustments so it might be a weekend experiment ;)

Do you happen to have a whole house water softener?

Cool thanks! I'll raise my CH to 250 or so and then lower my PH to 7-7.2 and keep it there.

I do not have a whole house softener, but would gladly buy one if it would help with the iron reduction.

I ordered those test kits for Iron/Copper and am waiting to get them by Thursday and run a test from the fill and then the pool.

The test kits should only show unsequestered iron right?
 

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Hold on a second. I have no idea what the Hamilton Index is but high pH is your absolute enemy. Upping your CH makes no sense to me.....why do you want to do that?

As a last thought if you slowly refill your pool with iron free water from your softener, ALL, and I mean ALL, your iron problems will vanish.

The issue will be how much you can add......it must be done slow enough for the softener to keep up. If you overtax the softener, it will simply dump more iron laden water into your pool.
 
Hold on a second. I have no idea what the Hamilton Index is but high pH is your absolute enemy. Upping your CH makes no sense to me.....why do you want to do that?

As a last thought if you slowly refill your pool with iron free water from your softener, ALL, and I mean ALL, your iron problems will vanish.

The issue will be how much you can add......it must be done slow enough for the softener to keep up. If you overtax the softener, it will simply dump more iron laden water into your pool.

I think the reason I ask is that if I'm going to keep my PH in the 7.2 to 7.4 range and my TA around 70-80, then I would need to add more CH so the pool isn't to acidic? This is going off of the CSI index.

Right now my CH is at 175, which I think may be too low for a fiberglass pool.

I am going to try the Pool Refresh product from Hydropure Technologies first. The lovely people at Hydropure were working with me and if it doesn't work. Next year I'll have a water softener installed and will do another refresh of my pool water.

So, based on everyone's input, I'm going to be shooting for:

PH 7.2-7.4
TA 80
CH 200

Does that sound about right?
 
I am going to try the Pool Refresh product from Hydropure Technologies first.
Taking the advice of people selling you something seldom works out well. Let us know how you do.

You are confusing the csi index with pH. Csi can predict the possibility of scale.....that's all.

read "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School
 
I think the reason I ask is that if I'm going to keep my PH in the 7.2 to 7.4 range and my TA around 70-80, then I would need to add more CH so the pool isn't to acidic? This is going off of the CSI index.

The CSI is not a measure of the "acidity" or "basicity" of water; that is pH. CSI is the calcite saturation index; it is a thermodynamically derived index that is a measure of the relative saturation of calcium carbonate in your pool water. A zero CSI means your water is perfectly saturated with calcium carbonate relative to its equilibrium value. A negative value means the water is under-saturated relative to what it can hold and a positive value indicates that your water is over-saturated relative to what it can hold. The values are logarithmic so a -0.3 roughly equates to a value of 1/2 while a +0.3 roughly equates to a value of 2. The CSI is only a measure of chemical saturation, it does not tell you anything about when scaling or corrosion will occur and it does not tell you the rates either. It is also ONLY valid for calcium carbonate, it makes no prediction of metal scale or corrosion.

The Hamilton Index is not very useful for pool water because it assumes the water is metal free and that the pool water is largely free of calcium build up. There are only a few areas of the US where that is true. So running a high pH pool based on that index is a recipe for disaster in most cases.
 
^dv, he's swg so his cya if raised to 70 will cause a delta in his csi.

Draco, I'm workin late and only have a second, but put your parameters into the pool calculator (click on Pool Math button in top NAV of this site) and you will get your CSI. -1 Csi is perfect for swg...even -6 is doable as metal changes the picture a bit...being on the negative side is better with metals.

I'm leery about giving you conflicted advice that might condraindicate a product like Pool Refresh, for which I haven't found a msds...do you have one?

My bet is that it combines lanathum chloride with maybe alum? In either case, be certain you can vac to waste and follow Hydropures direction for pre-treatment balance to avoid unintended consequence because if the ph etc. isn't exactly right, I've seen floc products like alum fail ;)

If you have the msds and instructions, post a link and I'll look later tonight ;)
 
^dv, he's swg so his cya if raised to 70 will cause a delta in his csi.

Draco, I'm workin late and only have a second, but put your parameters into the pool calculator (click on Pool Math button in top NAV of this site) and you will get your CSI. -1 Csi is perfect for swg...even -6 is doable as metal changes the picture a bit...being on the negative side is better with metals.

I'm leery about giving you conflicted advice that might condraindicate a product like Pool Refresh, for which I haven't found a msds...do you have one?

My bet is that it combines lanathum chloride with maybe alum? In either case, be certain you can vac to waste and follow Hydropures direction for pre-treatment balance to avoid unintended consequence because if the ph etc. isn't exactly right, I've seen floc products like alum fail ;)

If you have the msds and instructions, post a link and I'll look later tonight ;)

Awesome information guys thanks!

Honestly, I am very leery about trying products pushed by the company, but the lady from Hydropure called me directly and spent a considerable amount of time with me and I felt that she (like you guys) genuinely wanted to help. She offered to help me with the cost and was generous with the coupon she provided me.

I am going to follow their steps to a T and will be sure to post before and after pictures.

This is the set I purchased:

Metaltrap Complete Stain Removal Kit | Hydropure Technologies

At worst, I am left with a cloudy pool for a couple days and short a few bucks, at best I have less metals and can get by with a sequesterant (and everyone's advice on the PH) for an acceptable rate (I'd be happy with one bottle a month).

Either way I will be posting pictures and will respond here with how well it worked out. In addition, after I am done with all of the backwashing I am going to replace all of my sand in my sand filter, just in case there is left over metal trapped there, and am going to wipe the entire filter with an ascorbic acid soaked sponge.

I also purchased a second Metal Trap in which I am doing to daisy chain back to back when doing future fills and am going to post before and after Iron readings to show/prove if it's working (or not).

Lastly, I am taking everyone's advice and am going to maintain my pH at a range of 7.2-7.4.

Here will be my target numbers:

FC: 2 PPM
PH: 7.2-7.4
TA: 60-80
CH: 200
CYA: 50

Again, thank you everyone (especially cheers to Swampwoman and Texas Splash), I'll let you know how I make out once I receive the kit and can post results.
 
We certainly commend you on your efforts. :salut: I'll be watching to see how your water responds to the treatment. I would offer one final note ... watch your CYA and FC closely. You don't want to allow algae into the equation. A CYA of 50 has a minimum FC of 4. I know some metals treatments require a very low FC during the process, but if you're not ready to start that metals process, you may want to bump FC up slightly just to keep the algae bug away. Same would apply if you raise your CYA for the SWG minimum of 70. Just make sure to never let the FC get below the minimum to avoid a SLAM until you're absolutely ready to start the process.

Seems like every metals scenario is a bit different, and yours is no exception. :) Keep us posted and have a great evening.
 
Good morning, Draco.
Still couldn't find te msds for that trio of products but here's what I suspect each do:

1. This sounds like either ascorbic acid or citric acid
2. The pool refresh is a floccing agent
3. The liquid metal trap will be a sequestrant

What hydropure appears to have done is to have packaged the AA treatment we refer to at TFP and added a metal floccing element which isn't an entirely bad idea depending on the actual chemicals they're using to do so.

Please ask the rep if anything in the package is "negatively charged" -- some polymer-based sequestrants, like jacks Magenta, (but not purple) are. If anything is the package is negatively charged and you use Polyquat 60 to control for algae while your FC is low per treatment instructions, you will have a mess.

When you bring the FC back up from this treatment, I suspect you will find you need liquid chlorine to do so and make sure you've gotten up to level. Dont just turn on the swg...it may not keep up...but slowly add FC until it holds, and dont wait days for it to hold. The trick is to get a normal FC hold without getting FC too high or increasing ph. Lots of folks who do the AA treatment don't realize that leftover Ascorbic acid literally eats chlorine until spent and sit to long at a low FC and then get algae.

If you end up having to slam/shock after this treatment, you will cause restaining and wear off the sequestrant. You will also need to closely control your ph to around 7.2 post-treatment to avoid restaining.

Another question for the rep is whether the stain remover and floc will actually work on already sequestered metals. Be sure to read for metal levels before application, then after the floc and vac-to-waste...before applying the sequestrant. That will be one way to tell if the floc component did anything.

A second way to tell is if the floc removed iron, it will be tinted iron colored like this: (a picture from an Alum experiment on water from my well. Just so you know, a second bucket test on my sequestered pool water with same product failed completely, which is why the jury is out for me on this as a reliable removal method, but I had created high shock value conditions to see if I could precipitate the metal :).)

image.jpg

Lastly, even though the instructions say you CAN filter out the cloudiness, i would really try to let it settle for a day and vacuum entirely to waste. That way you don't need to replace your sand...(per their soft recc to do so) and can just give it a really good backwash and maybe a deep clean with a hose.

When you do the treatment, do post your outcome. Knowing how things work out helps us help others ;)
 

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